Ultimate ups and downs

[themightygwynne]

Ultimate x-men was THE comic that made me like comics as a teenager! Since then I've followed the ultimate line through everything. There seems to be a lot of negativeness about the line but actually storylines I used to dislike, with age, I see are actually pretty good. Summed up in one sentence:

U xmen: early stories with retrospect aren't as "real life" as we all seem to think. Very fast and a little silly. Develops really well and embraces the political side. Actually makes cyclops an interesting character. Should have never tried to have more than 10 heroes. Kitty as the leader is cool.

U spider: consistently good! The only line that probably hasn't had ups or downs, lots if interesting twists. I feel there was a sense of cashing in with miles but still enjoyable.

U fantastic4: first 6 issues were awesome and then someone decided to go into space and crap. Making reed evil was a master stroke.

Ultimates: what did you do loeb?!?

 

[Ice]

Welcome!


The USM run with Miles is the only up for the current Ultimate books (or was. dun dun dunnn). I definitely miss the old UXM ups with Millar, Bendis, and BKV.

 

[wyokid]

Time for the freak to post!

All of Millar was low, Kirkman was a major low, Fialkov has been a low for me so far, Hickman was a low, the two writers from Heroes were a low, and everything else was a high for me.

 

[themightygwynne]

Although the thing at the moment that is pissing me off as someone who gets them in graphic novel form is the names! I naturally assumed that after divided we fall there would be: ultimate whatever volume 4 but noooo it's ultimate comics ultimates again...very confusing!

 

[DIrishB]

Ultimate x-men was THE comic that made me like comics as a teenager! Since then I've followed the ultimate line through everything. There seems to be a lot of negativeness about the line but actually storylines I used to dislike, with age, I see are actually pretty good. Summed up in one sentence: U xmen: early stories with retrospect aren't as "real life" as we all seem to think. Very fast and a little silly. Develops really well and embraces the political side. Actually makes cyclops an interesting character. Should have never tried to have more than 10 heroes. Kitty as the leader is cool.

Ultimate X-Men was good during Millar's, Bendis, and Vaughan's runs. It started going downhill with Kirkman's run and onward. Currently it's gotten way too out there. There are far too many mutants being balanced in the title to make any really compelling or interesting (despite them killing off a vast majority if them). While there were some cool things introduced with Kitty as the leader and them developing Utopia, the whole "Jean Grey is bad" thing was very weak and not handled well at all.

U spider: consistently good! The only line that probably hasn't had ups or downs, lots if interesting twists. I feel there was a sense of cashing in with miles but still enjoyable.

USM is quite good. I think killing off Peter Parker and introducing Miles was a ballsy move that turned out to have been great. For awhile USM got pretty bad during the Ultimate Knights, Deadpool, etc arcs, but overall it's been pretty good.

U fantastic4: first 6 issues were awesome and then someone decided to go into space and crap. Making reed evil was a master stroke.

I liked that they made Reed a villain. While the reasoning/character motivation was poorly handled, it presented a truly formidable villain as a result. Unfortunately weak writing didn't capitalize on it anywhere near as well as it should have.

Ultimates: what did you do loeb?!?

Yep. Ultimates 1 and 2 were great, everything Ultimates 3 and onward has been terrible.

Time for the freak to post! All of Millar was low, Kirkman was a major low, Fialkov has been a low for me so far, Hickman was a low, the two writers from Heroes were a low, and everything else was a high for me.

All of Millar was low? Are you serious? His Ultimate 1 and 2 were great, his UXM was great, and his UFF stuff was at least interesting. Granted his New Ultimates and Ultimates vs Avengers stuff was lame.

Although the thing at the moment that is pissing me off as someone who gets them in graphic novel form is the names! I naturally assumed that after divided we fall there would be: ultimate whatever volume 4 but noooo it's ultimate comics ultimates again...very confusing!

Yeah the whole "Ultimate Comics: The Ultimates" title is just stupid.

 

[Mattimeo84]

Although the thing at the moment that is pissing me off as someone who gets them in graphic novel form is the names! I naturally assumed that after divided we fall there would be: ultimate whatever volume 4 but noooo it's ultimate comics ultimates again...very confusing!

This, 100% this!

I have the Ultimate Universe on one shelf (Vol 1). This is everything from Ultimate Spider Man TPB1 - All of Ultimatum. Then we jump to shelf 2 with is the Ultimate Comics Universe (Vol. 2). This covers everything post Ultimatum to Fallout. Then, same shelf but mixed in (because Marvel stinks with names) is Ultimate: Comics Universe Reborn (Vol. 3). This covers everything post Fallout to Present. Volume four as I understand it covers everything from Hunger to Cataclysm and all the related books.

I got the volume names (and what's included) from somewhere Marvel, but can't seem to find it again. I believe it was a Comic Book Resources article referencing a Marvel Press Release.

Why not title the books appropriately so they either all match or based on the arbitrary titles. And furthermore, keep all the spines similar (at least in individual titles). It bothers me and my OCD that they aren't all the same.

 

[ProjectX2]

Didn't the Ultimate Universe end about five years ago?

 

[Captain Canuck]

I've never EVER thought USM was bad. I loved Ultimate Knights. I think Kingpin is one of Spidey's best villains and they used him so well. The scene where he captures Peter and sits him in a private room and tells him that he owns his marketing rights so he wants him to keep doing the hero thing so he can make money was awesome. Such a great Kingpin moment.

 

[wyokid]

All of Millar was low? Are you serious? His Ultimate 1 and 2 were great, his UXM was great, and his UFF stuff was at least interesting. Granted his New Ultimates and Ultimates vs Avengers stuff was lame.

Firstly, Jeph Loeb wrote New Ultimates and it is my third favorite Ultimate comic (Ultimate Spider-Man being first with Ultimate X after it). Secondly, Millar's Ultimate X-Men made me hate the X-Men for almost a decade (Ultimate X #1 being released started my turn around and then Morrison and Whedon finished it). Thirdly, UFF's dialogue was all Bendis which is why it was so damn good, when Millar returned it was some of the most painful issues of anything I've ever read. Lastly, Ultimates 2 almost made me quit reading comics. It wasn't until the final issue that I saw the ad for Ultimates 3 and the art just grabbed me. Ultimates 3 captivated me and I was so hooked on it. This was during my pirating days so wherever a new issue was released I downloaded it and just could not get enough.

Screw y'all, don't give me that look! I'm sure some of you like Scott Lobdell!

 

[Captain Canuck]

No...we don't.

 

[Ice]

Even if we did, he's still a step-up.

 

[themightygwynne]

Yeah the artwork for ultimates 3 was pretty cool. It was the fact they completely ignored what had happened before and drew all the characters like 616 that annoyed lots of people!

Forgot to mention that actually killing wolverine was cool, especially considering in 616 he's in EVERY team lol

Bringing in his apparent son sucked!

 

[wyokid]

Yeah the artwork for ultimates 3 was pretty cool. It was the fact they completely ignored what had happened before and drew all the characters like 616 that annoyed lots of people!

Forgot to mention that actually killing wolverine was cool, especially considering in 616 he's in EVERY team lol

Bringing in his apparent son sucked!

I think Ultimates 3 followed the first two better than people give it credit but I am REALLY not trying to get into that argument. Jimmy was awesome in Ultimate X, after that he turned into Logan Jr. and I don't know if he'll ever recover.

 

[themightygwynne]

It's ironic because I liked cable/wolverine who came back to save the future...and clearly had no impact!

So let's say the ultimate universe is going to be cancelled...miles is off to 616 somehow, and marvel come to you and say "is there anything we could do with this line?"

What would you do if you could take the reins at this point?

 

[Captain Canuck]

I think Ultimates 3 followed the first two better than people give it credit but I am REALLY not trying to get into that argument. Jimmy was awesome in Ultimate X, after that he turned into Logan Jr. and I don't know if he'll ever recover.

Hey man, in all seriousness, you're allowed to like the things you like. I have tastes that differ from a lot of people on this board about some of the stuff that I don't like.

That said, I honestly have to say that Ultimates 3 was by far the worst comic series I had ever read to that point. The characterizations, the random guest appearances, the story. The worst part by far was that it just felt like Loeb was trying to hard to be hard core. The single worst panel I have ever seen in a comic was Pym saying that if Wasp was Ultron's mother, that must make him, "THE MOTHER-@&$%ER!!!!!!!" That was SO bad. I actually flipped back and forth a few times just because I couldn't believe it. Ultimatum surpassed Ultimates 3 in terms of terrible story, and even the gratuitous "hard core" scenes (Blob eating Wasp, Dr Strange's head exploding), but that one panel in Ultimates 3 wins for worst thing I have ever seen in a comic ever. During that period, Ultimate Origins also came out, which was just a mess. It didn't make sense or fit with established continuity at all.

After Ultimatum, things sort of meandered. New Ultimates wasn't nearly as bad. I don't really remember what it was about, but I remember feeling like everything that came out after Ultimatum wasunremarkable at best - except USM which, as I've said, I've always enjoyed. New Ultimates was probably better than anything Millar put out post-ultimatum. The Ultimate X series was meh, Captain America was dumb, the one about Iron Man was okay. the Hawkeye series was decent.

The post-death of Spider-Man stuff was mostly better at first. I really liked Hickman's Ultimates, but it had a really dissatisfying ending. It seemed like they rushed the ending of the story so they could write the divided we stand story. That's too bad, because it felt like Hickman was taking it in a cool direction and the Divided/Unites story was less than amazing. I didn't hate it, but it wasn't good enough to keep me buying the comics for very long. And I felt like the post-death of Spider-Man X-Men stuff was always mediocre.

Really, the Ultimate Universe started going down hill when they just started cranking out crappy minis. Ultimate Elektra, Ultimate Elektra vs Daredevil, Ultimate Iron Man & Ultimate Iron Man II all sucked (I do appreciate that Millar retconned the Iron Man stories after Ultimatum though). I really loved everything in the main series that got put out until Kirkman took over UXM and Kerry took over UFF. They both just got really boring after that. A lot of people say USM started sucking around then too, but while it clearly had a dip in quality (culminating in the clone saga, MJ-Goblin, and Doc Ock's magnetic powers) I would say it never sucked the way the other titles did.

Oh! And Ultimate Power. That was when things really took a nose dive. (However, if it hadn't been for the continuity issues that series caused, I never would have joined this site.)

 

[Zombipanda]

Millar's Ultimates was over-rated. It was one of the better things he's done, but that doesn't make it great, and it certainly doesn't deserve the hype it gets.

What strikes me about the Ultimate U is that it consisted of a decent amount of interesting ideas that never really played out. There's the question of what the real world implications of methumans would be. USM touched on the exploration of what the research would mean in the private sector, Ultimates on a global scale, and UXM with the realistic security implications of the fact that literally anyone on the face of the Earth could manifest powers that could be globally devastating. Ultimate Thor had the question of whether he was really a god, and what it means to be a god in a world of superheroes, but Millar squandered it by having a somewhat clever idea he didn't know how to develop properly, and in the end his vision of Asgard was just Lord of the Rings. USM's Clone Saga actually had the opportunity to play with serious questions of identity but instead, those threads were squandered and forgotten. Wolverine as Cable was similarly a neat idea that could have thrown some ambiguity on the morality of Xavier's dream but didn't develop into anything meaningful. All around, there was a lack of long term planning, and as it stands, the main universe now is doing all the things the UU tried to do then, but better.

Ideally, the advantage of the UU's smaller scope and distance from the main publications is that you can have a tighter, more focused narrative with serious and long-ranging implications that don't ever need to be retconned. If I had the reins, I'd relaunch the whole line. Find a group of fresh, promising young writers willing to work together and stick around for the long term. Workshop the hell out of the line until you have a distinct voice and theme for each individual book, a long-term narrative, and a continuity bible. Intend for the whole thing to be finite. Maybe a hundred issues per book, with tentative plans for short-term series sprinkled throughout. Then let your writers loose.

 

[themightygwynne]

I actually didn't think the ultimate universe was THAT broken when ultimatum came around. Did ultimates 3 suck, yes! But apart from that I have always felt that there are some story arcs in the regular universe I have and haven't enjoyed.

They tried to restart things with the original writers and that didn't work.

They literally destroyed half the world and brought in fresh writers in the ultimate comics era and that hasn't seemed to work although (I've been more interested then before)

Instead of scrapping what was a revolutionary line I would condense it into one title called Ultinate universe. There are very few characters surviving and I think they could make a very solid monthly title involving a recurring storyline involving most if the surviving cast and then a mini individual story.

 

[DIrishB]

I've never EVER thought USM was bad. I loved Ultimate Knights. I think Kingpin is one of Spidey's best villains and they used him so well. The scene where he captures Peter and sits him in a private room and tells him that he owns his marketing rights so he wants him to keep doing the hero thing so he can make money was awesome. Such a great Kingpin moment.

Truth be told I might be unfairly judging that arc based on my memory of how sucky the Deadpool arc was.

Firstly, Jeph Loeb wrote New Ultimates and it is my third favorite Ultimate comic (Ultimate Spider-Man being first with Ultimate X after it). Secondly, Millar's Ultimate X-Men made me hate the X-Men for almost a decade (Ultimate X #1 being released started my turn around and then Morrison and Whedon finished it). Thirdly, UFF's dialogue was all Bendis which is why it was so damn good, when Millar returned it was some of the most painful issues of anything I've ever read. Lastly, Ultimates 2 almost made me quit reading comics. It wasn't until the final issue that I saw the ad for Ultimates 3 and the art just grabbed me. Ultimates 3 captivated me and I was so hooked on it. This was during my pirating days so wherever a new issue was released I downloaded it and just could not get enough. Screw y'all, don't give me that look! I'm sure some of you like Scott Lobdell!

Oh I get it... you're kidding.

Yeah the artwork for ultimates 3 was pretty cool. It was the fact they completely ignored what had happened before and drew all the characters like 616 that annoyed lots of people! Forgot to mention that actually killing wolverine was cool, especially considering in 616 he's in EVERY team lol Bringing in his apparent son sucked!

Completely agree... though it looks like, in an upcoming issue of the Cataclysm crossover, that

Spoiler

Wolverine will be returning... somehow.[/quote]

Hey man, in all seriousness, you're allowed to like the things you like. I have tastes that differ from a lot of people on this board about some of the stuff that I don't like. That said, I honestly have to say that Ultimates 3 was by far the worst comic series I had ever read to that point. The characterizations, the random guest appearances, the story. The worst part by far was that it just felt like Loeb was trying to hard to be hard core.

Loeb was trying to out-90's the existing 90's comics. It was essentially Rob Liefeld's ultimate masturbatory fantasy.

Oh! And Ultimate Power. That was when things really took a nose dive. (However, if it hadn't been for the continuity issues that series caused, I never would have joined this site.)

I did my best.

If I had the reins, I'd relaunch the whole line. Find a group of fresh, promising young writers willing to work together and stick around for the long term. Workshop the hell out of the line until you have a distinct voice and theme for each individual book, a long-term narrative, and a continuity bible. Intend for the whole thing to be finite. Maybe a hundred issues per book, with tentative plans for short-term series sprinkled throughout. Then let your writers loose.

You just perfectly described the approach of the new Valiant universe. Why aren't you fools reading it?!?

 

[wyokid]

I don't joke when it comes to my love of Jeph Loeb's work

 

[Captain Canuck]

I don't joke when it comes to my love of Jeph Loeb's work

[video=youtube;8i5i0jxIWYw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8i5i0jxIWYw[/video]