Ultimate X-Men #78 discussion (Spoilers)

[Ice]

It looks like the site went from hating Kirkman's UXM to loving it.

I've always liked his run.

 

[Lynx]

I wouldn't say that. His other 10 issues were awful. This arc was merely a step up. It was solid---but it left so much stuff open and unexplained.

I was really hoping they would explain more about Cable.



But meh....those are just the thoughts of one man.

That's about the long and short of it.

 

[E]

It looks like the site went from hating Kirkman's UXM to loving it.

I don't know if many of us liked Date Night but the rest has been stellar - I thought it was well-received here.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

I've always liked his run.

I don't know if many of us liked Date Night but the rest has been stellar - I thought it was well-received here.

You sirs.....are off your bleedin' rocker!


Everything he's done before Cable has been utter garbage. Although I liked the Shi'Ar being a church instead of aliens. That was a nice twist---but eveything else.....ugh.

 

[McCheese]

You sirs.....are off your bleedin' rocker!


Everything he's done before Cable has been utter garbage. Although I liked the Shi'Ar being a church instead of aliens. That was a nice twist---but eveything else.....ugh.

Correct.

 

[ShaggyMarco]

I liked Date Night, I loved the Annual.

Date Night did a good job af making some of these characters who have been getting defined by their powers and iconic status in the minds of comic readers back into the all-important mode of REAL PEOPLE with genuine human problems-dates, dealing with friends you thought you knew better than you did, young love and first times, etc. The Shi'ar church was the best part of the arc, but the rest was pretty nice.

The Annual twisted dramatically away from 616 characterizations, while staying in-bounds for the established UU characterization of Nightcrawler. Creepy Kurt is fascinating and tragic.

My only complaint about his run has been The Magician, who was lame and ultimately seemed pointless.

However, I can see where The Magician was a good way to kill time while waiting for UXM to be able to address the events of Ultimates 2. I hope Hitch and Millar finish quickly, because I want to see how the Liberators manage to capture the X-men.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

I dunno. Kirkmen's UXM has been ok. Datenight kinda sucked, Magician was so-so, I liked Phoenix, and I thought that Cable was really good...apart from the ending.

What I'm seriously sick of is characters dieing and coming back. I know that he killed Xavier for the shock value...but come on. It wasn't shocking, because we all know that he's coming back. He's died in 616 too.

 

[ShaggyMarco]

Kirkman may very well have no plans on bringing Xavier back.

He can't ever dictate what all other writers after him do, but he can keep his own deaths permanent in his time.

That said, I am annoyed at the return of character Spoiled in the solits. I like for people to stay dead.

 

[Foolsfolly]

I liked parts of Date Night. I thought he was a great follow up to Vaughan.

Then he lost me in the sea of Magician. Which was a dull character with no personality outside of being perfect. I was hoping at the end he would have shown that he warped his own body and in reality he was a short fat unpopular kid (it would have worked better than a Nazi poster boy with God like powers...and no personality).

But Cable was solid. I don't think ANYONE here wants to hate the Ultimate Universe, we've all been huge fans at some point, it brought me back into comics...that's a certain loyalty I have for it.

So, when a book picks up. We treat it right. When a book disappoints we flame the hell out of it.

 

[Ultimate Quicksilver]

I liked parts of Date Night. I thought he was a great follow up to Vaughan.

Then he lost me in the sea of Magician. Which was a dull character with no personality outside of being perfect. I was hoping at the end he would have shown that he warped his own body and in reality he was a short fat unpopular kid (it would have worked better than a Nazi poster boy with God like powers...and no personality).

But Cable was solid. I don't think ANYONE here wants to hate the Ultimate Universe, we've all been huge fans at some point, it brought me back into comics...that's a certain loyalty I have for it.

So, when a book picks up. We treat it right. When a book disappoints we flame the hell out of it.

I agree with everything you say and would like to add that Kirkman's annual was the best of the lot.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

I like it when people come back from the dead. Actually, I prefer they never get killed in the first place. But if they must die, I like to see them come back or, at the very least, have their identity passed along to someone else.

A dead character is a wasted character. I'd rather have everyone alive except for extreme circumstances. The Universe would be a lot better place right now if Ben Reilly still lived.

(and no, Uncle Ben doesn't count. He was only there to die so Spider-Man could become Spider-Man)

 

[Willverine]

I like it when people come back from the dead. Actually, I prefer they never get killed in the first place. But if they must die, I like to see them come back or, at the very least, have their identity passed along to someone else.

A dead character is a wasted character. I'd rather have everyone alive except for extreme circumstances. The Universe would be a lot better place right now if Ben Reilly still lived.

(and no, Uncle Ben doesn't count. He was only there to die so Spider-Man could become Spider-Man)

Killing off certain characters allows many of the other characters to gain some depth. Hopefully that will (and definitely should be) the case with the death of Professor X. Don't worry your head too much, there is no doubt he will return, but I hope Kirkman keeps him dead for the duration of his run... or at least until the end of his run. Moreso than that, I hope we see some more of Ultimate Cable and learn about his true origin. Is he really Wolverine from the future or was that a red herring? I'm sure there's more to it than meets the eye. Kudos to Kirkman for leaving that open.

There are plenty of available options for bringing Xavier back that don't neccessarily involve the cliche time travel or cloning options. The transferrence of his consciousness, as seen after the credits on X3, is a great example and it would make sense considering Xavier's powers. ANYTHING BUT CLONING!

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Killing off certain characters allows many of the other characters to gain some depth.

Okay, but then what's the harm in bringing the character back after all that? Great, somebody has more depth. They don't lose it by bringing the character back. In fact, nothing is lost by bringing a character back, not even the impact of their original death. They still died. There was still a very good chance they would never come back. Nothing gets ruined, and we get a character back. And maybe a good story.

Everybody loves Colossus coming back and that was the worst resurrection ever, and actually does demean his sacrifice, since he didn't even die in the first place! It's completely ridiculous and way more complicated than it needs to be.

 

[Ice]

Kirkman may very well have no plans on bringing Xavier back.

I would like that. Let's see how the X-Men deal without Xavier for a while. It's definetly a great idea to do.

 

[ShaggyMarco]

Okay, but then what's the harm in bringing the character back after all that?

If there is no danger of permanent death then we, as readers, won't ever feel any true fear for the well-being of the characters. So long as we fear they can die, the tension stays high and we worry for our characters.

SOMETIMES returning from the dead can be cool, but I think it should be the exception, not the rule.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

If there is no danger of permanent death then we, as readers, won't ever feel any true fear for the well-being of the characters. So long as we fear they can die, the tension stays high and we worry for our characters.

SOMETIMES returning from the dead can be cool, but I think it should be the exception, not the rule.

Exactly.

Why should we care if so-and-so dies.....if a year from now you're just gonna bring him back.

There's no emotional interest vested in it.


That's why "dead" should mean dead.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

But we already know there's a 99% chance a character will be brought back anyway. You should still care what happens to the character because if they do die, they'll be gone for a while and you'll miss them then and also, because it's the story that really counts. If it's a good story you'll care while it happens. Just because you know they'll be brought back, which you really know anyway, doesn't mean you can't fully enjoy and be fully invested in the story of their death.

I mean, it's not like every character gets killed every issue, or even every decade. It's still rare enough and they stay dead long enough that it still matters.

 

[Victor Von Doom]

But we already know there's a 99% chance a character will be brought back anyway. You should still care what happens to the character because if they do die, they'll be gone for a while and you'll miss them then and also, because it's the story that really counts. If it's a good story you'll care while it happens. Just because you know they'll be brought back, which you really know anyway, doesn't mean you can't fully enjoy and be fully invested in the story of their death.

I mean, it's not like every character gets killed every issue, or even every decade. It's still rare enough and they stay dead long enough that it still matters.

You're missing the point here.

The UU is based on a higher degree of "realism" than 616. I mean how many times has anyone died in 616? I think this is like the 7th carnation of Aunt May.

The reason why bringing someone back from the dead in the UU (no matter how much the character is missed/loved) is stupid is because each time you do that---you take away just a bit more of the foundation that the UU is built on. It takes it one step further into random 616 madness and continuity errors and just basic "over the topness".

Killing Beast in 616 and then having a return featuring Dark Beast is ok. The general public has come to accept that kinda stuff from their 616 comics. But once you start doing that in the UU---it detracts from the universe as a whole. Because once it happens in one book---then it opens the floodgates for other books to use the gimmick.

Look at Gwen Stacy. She died. It helped further the story and character of young Peter Parker. But then she came back (kinda). By bringing her back, it cheapened her death. Then there's the whole matter of trying to come up with a great story to follow. So ok---it's not really Gwen. But instead it's Gwenage! :roll: Stupid and shallow.

They killed Beast. It was great...it had impact....it changed the dynamic of the team as a whole as well as great character development for Storm. Now they're talking about bringing him back. Kirkman's talented---but regardless of how you spin it---bringing him back is dumb and the story is gonna pretty much suck.

Now on top of that---we have Xavier who died. The book would a lot better if it operated under the guise of X-Men carrying out a visionary's dreams instead of him leading. The team has to grow up and handle stuff on their own. It's them being thrown into the deep end and having to swim. But no. They'll bring Xavier back. And it'll be stupid.

Now one could argue that "we all thought Magneto was dead too....but look how that turned out?". We could. But look at what happened. He wasn't killed---we were made to think he was. But they've already used that trick. So if they use it again it will be unimaginitive and seem contribed.

Bottom line-----when you brong back the dead---you spit on the principles of what the UU was supposed to be founded on.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Bottom line-----when you brong back the dead---you spit on the principles of what the UU was supposed to be founded on.

I completely disagree with your assesment of the UU as a whole and this issue in particular.

Don't take that the wrong way, I'm not trying to start anything, we just have complete opposite views on things here.

 

[Zombipanda]

I don't necessarily agree with VVD's full assessment, but I do believe that Xavier should stay dead.

There are a number of plot devices out there that can be incredibly effective if used infrequently. Killing off characters is one of them, and bringing them back is another. If you kill off an important character, you enhance the story by being able to explore how it effects the other characters in the book and you also leave the impression that anything can happen in the story. Kill off too many characters and it just seems like a cheap ploy.

Then again, bringing back characters can work just as well if used infrequently. It's just, when you bring a character back, you have to look at how your story benefited from the character's death, and what it has to gain from bringing the character back. If the latter outweighs the former, then it's worth exploring. What happened with the 616 Universe is we say way too many resurrections, and very few of them contributed positively to the storytelling. It was a gimmick. Resurrecting characters is effective, but the 616 did it so much that coming back to life wasn't worth ****. It's reached a point that deaths are meaningless now, since the reader knows the character will be coming back, and resurrections are meaningless because it's practically an everyday affair. The UU can benefit from resurrections, as long as they use them sparingly. Beast's resurrection could be a great thing, but I only see Xavier coming back as harming the book.

Beast's death was resonant because of his personal interactions with the characters. Storm was a character who's personality was, in a lot of ways, dependent on Beast. Almost all of her characterization dealt with her relationship with him, and his death sent her life into a tailspin. The results of that are that we've seen Storm develop some (although not as much as I'd like to see) in the following arcs. While Beast's death affected everyone, I think this was really the only major long-term consequences we've seen out of his death. Bringing him back now would be an effective storytelling tool because it allows Kirkman to bring an internal conflict with Storm: who she was before Beast's death, and who she is now.

Xavier, on the other hand, should stay dead. He was masterminding a number of seedy activities all under the cover of the X-Men. There's the distinct feeling that the X-Men themselves were never in control of their mission, that they were just pawns in Xavier's blueprint for the future. Then Xavier got a glimpse at Cable and he saw exactly the sort of future his plans were leading to. He steps right into Cable's trap so that the youth will be able to plan the future without his manipulations. But the wheels are still turning, and the X-Men will have to face the groundwork that's already been set by Xavier to insure a happy future. I like them in charge of their own destinies, and that's something that can only be managed with Xavier out of the picture.