Emma Frost: A Fraud

Dr.Strangefate said:
When it comes down to it all Ultimate Characters serve the same purposes.
Not really. Gwen wasn't a love interest of Peter's, which was her big ole stinking purpose in 616. Before this whole Norman-shagging crap showed up. She was the big sign of how much he'd changed from his nerdy, pre-spider days; Peter was dating GWEN STACY.

I still think you're reading too much into it. It's not exactly a Sherlock moment to realize they met while Charles was living with Erik. He was with Moira until he ran off with Erik. And after he was done with Erik, he was a cripple. So obviously his two non-Moira relationships must have happened in that span. It was also said that the telepaths followed Charles for the most part... but then again, that's me turning into the Doc and assuming Ultimate Emma even is one... ;)
 
Good attention to detail. Emma was probably involved with the stuff going on in the Savage Land, that is, before Xavier defected from Magneto... That's feasible and likely the conclusion Vaughan has made aswell.

As for how Mystique fits in, I'm not totally sure. I do believe that she's around the same time as when the relationship floundered with Moira, but was she before or after Emma? That kind of thing. It could be that Mystique and Xavier shacked up after all was said and done with Emma and now she's simply lurking about in the mansion as a cat.
 
Goodwill said:
As for how Mystique fits in, I'm not totally sure. I do believe that she's around the same time as when the relationship floundered with Moira, but was she before or after Emma? That kind of thing. It could be that Mystique and Xavier shacked up after all was said and done with Emma and now she's simply lurking about in the mansion as a cat.

Hmmm, good question. Anyone remember if Emma mentioned how long it'd been since she'd last seen Charles in the New Mutant arc?
 
jtg3885 said:
He was with Moira until he ran off with Erik. And after he was done with Erik, he was a cripple. So obviously his two non-Moira relationships must have happened in that span.

Not necessarily. Thats assuming they had a sexual aspect to their relationship, which might even be possible after Chuck's paralysis. Who knows? Crap, he could probably give her a "you-know-what" with his mind by tweaking a certain part of her brain, whereas the rest of us would have to tweak a certain part of her body.
 
Assuming the cat IS Mystique...how'd it get the name Mystique? I mean if it's her real name, then how did Xavier happen to know it. I mean, did Charles name this cat Mystique, and in turn named a woman? That'd be bizarre. Or...did Raven write out a note and leave it on Xavier's doorstep before "leaving the cat" to Xavier's care? I think I just confused myself.
 
Russian Tank said:
Assuming the cat IS Mystique...how'd it get the name Mystique? I mean if it's her real name, then how did Xavier happen to know it. I mean, did Charles name this cat Mystique, and in turn named a woman? That'd be bizarre. Or...did Raven write out a note and leave it on Xavier's doorstep before "leaving the cat" to Xavier's care? I think I just confused myself.

He said he named a cat after an Ex-girlfriend of his. I'd guess that it would be from the Savage Land, because they went by their "Mutant Names" there...
 
Dr.Strangefate said:
He said he named a cat after an Ex-girlfriend of his. I'd guess that it would be from the Savage Land, because they went by their "Mutant Names" there...

Oh. Well then damn me. Maybe Emma and Charles never even had a relationship. Maybe Mystique allowed them to think so. Mystique could have pretended to be Charles when with Emma and to be Emma when with Charles. Coulda been a plan to weed out possible rebels in Magneto's utopia.
 
Shade said:
consider: emma is on the scene when polaris freaks out, and we don't really know the status of her psychic powers...

oops! emma isn't on the scene! i completely lied... but still, i'm sure she could have some form of influence at a distance. it's been said a half a billion times, but i reiterate- nice friendly emma? huh?

and as much as i loathe titling the chess thing 'the chess metaphor', the whole white queen aspect of that is pretty striking...

post script: a little late to correct, i suppose... oh well.
 
Dr.Strangefate said:
He said he named a cat after an Ex-girlfriend of his. I'd guess that it would be from the Savage Land, because they went by their "Mutant Names" there...

This could mean that Mystique had a relationship with Xavier before he left the Savage Land and with Emma afterwards. Xavier and Emma have said that they were both trying to begin a school together, but because of a rocky relationship, had to break it off... SO, I would imagine this was when Xavier had already defected from Magneto. Just a guess, it makes sense to me.
 
What this basically comes down to is the fact that you guys can't separate the Ultimate Universe from the 616 Universe. We have no proof that:

Mystique is alive still.
Mystique is alive and evil.
Mystique is alive, evil and connected to Magneto at all.
Mystique is alive, evil, connected, and has the knowledge to run a school.

We also have no proof that Emma has any sort of sinister motive, beyond people making assumptions based on early 616 Emma. It's entirely possible that what we see is what we get. She may simply be a mutant with her only power being the crystal form. She's been shown to be a pacifist who wants mutant-human coexistence through education. She's been training her mutant students (note that her school accepts all gifted children, including flatscans, if I'm reading it right) to be available to the local emergency services, not to go off and fight against other mutants. Especially given that 616 Emma turned her life around and is now a heroine of sorts, why is it hard to believe that Bendis and Vaughn simply chopped off the mean and nasty parts of her history?
 
To restate my point for those of you who have decided that my perceptions on the entire Ultimate Universe are skewed because I am connecting the characters to their 616 counterparts, and as an epilogue to an AIM argument with a certain UCer...

Emma Frost is no longer with Xavier, and they seemed hostile to one another when they met up, this is where I get the idea that she's holding a grudge. Coupled with her less-than-polite mention of Xavier's school when she talked to Sunspot.

Emma Frost is gathering a school filled with mutants, where she is teaching them that they are the true humans (remember when she discouraged the use of the word Mutant?), implanting a superiority over traditional men and women. She also is putting together a SWAT team of mutants who have negative ties to the X-Men. Sunspot views them as thinking the everyday mutant isn't good enough, and has strong feelings against them (ever since Tempest). Havok hates his brother. Lorna is the illegitimate daughter of Magneto, and the key to his escape (look at the cover of the comic and tell me it doesn't imply she's being used). Jean-Paul holds no grudge against them, but has been put down by Humans for being both Homosexual and a Mutant. In his eyes some mutant killer with a gun shot him, which is easily viewed as an attack on his species, and those attacks build prejudice. Its also important to keep in mind she recruited Beast right when he was feeling most detached from the institute, right before her first plan failed.

Emma Frost also was one of the original students of Xavier, meaning before he was paralyzed, when he was working with Magneto. Something tore them apart, if she left Xavier for the man who believed in a Mutant Utopia rather than the dog eat mutant dog world he had to offer, then we have a motive for her school to be formed. Lets say she had an affair with Magneto, before the escape to the Savage Land, and then left to raise their daughter under a false name and start a new branch of the school to operate in the heart of America, under Magneto's orders.

After Magneto's capture, she would make two attempts to get Lorna near Magnus. First she tried to work with the Government, and somehow organized a Sentinel strike on her own team. Imagine if the president hadn't vetoed Lorna and she had joined the team, and then went "crazy" with a sentinel flying around. Lots of humans dead, and Lorna in captivity. That plan fails, she loses a student, and she goes back to figure out something new. It takes a few months, but she takes the easy way out and has Lorna merely kill a dozen firefighters. Note: I don't know how Lorna is being controlled, but her placement in the Triskelion is crucial to Magneto's escape...

Aside from the possibility of her telepathically controlling Lorna, i don't think any part of my idea whatsoever is deriven from who Emma Frost is in 616. I have not suggested her being involved with the Hellfire Club, and I certainly haven't made the rediculous suggestion that she would become the Headmaster of Xavier's school, I'm just saying that there is more to her, and that you can use Logic, and whats already out there to prove it.

Something bigger is happening than it seems so far. If not, then this arc is going to be boring and predictable. And keep in mind, this is all speculation. I'm probably entirely wrong. But you CANT just disregard the entire idea because you think its derived from my opinion of the 616 character.
 
But that's all this is. You're taking your perceptions of 616 Emma and forcing them on top of Ultimate Emma in an attempt to make her less of, as you called her, a one-dimensional character. At this point in time, it's entirely possible that Vaughn only needs a one-dimensional Emma.

She's not making a SWAT team, either, when was the last time you saw SWAT responding to a building on fire? She's breaking up the Charles vs. Eric tug-of-war over mutants by giving them a third option. They can go to Xavier's school and be heroes, they can go to Eric's side and be villains, or they can go to Emma's school and be human beings.

EDIT: You're also making assumptions about Lorna Dane. We've seen Rogue's real parents, we've heard Scott make references to his parents being alive (although that one's up for debate as to whether it was sarcasm or not)... why are we assuming that Lorna is Magneto's daughter here?
 
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Please explain how I am putting my views on UU Emma based on 616 Emma, because I don't see your point.

And I can't think of a single one-dimensional character to appear in a Vaughn book, so I gaurentee he's giving her depth.

And I don't see how chosing your most powerful mutants, repressing them the ability to freely use their powers, and then saying that they're not allowed to help unless they ask first, makes sense at all! I mean, Northstar could have saved about a half-dozen more people if they just went to it. They may be playing the role of helpful task-force, but that DOESNT mean it wont go beyond that.

She's playing a shallow role, and humans are dying because of it, and she didn't seem phased by that at all. It seemed that what pissed her off was being confronted by a fellow Mutant, she didn't show ANY remorse for the humans Lorna killed (and all of those the distracted students didn't save from the fire).
 
Dr.Strangefate said:
And I don't see how chosing your most powerful mutants, repressing them the ability to freely use their powers, and then saying that they're not allowed to help unless they ask first, makes sense at all! I mean, Northstar could have saved about a half-dozen more people if they just went to it. They may be playing the role of helpful task-force, but that DOESNT mean it wont go beyond that.
Unless I missed something, doesn't she dispatch her students to the fire? Remember? The fire fighters comment that Frost's people have shown up, not "Oh, there's the mutants we called for." And claiming that the role Emma's students were shown in is anywhere near the role a SWAT team plays is ridiculous. Emma's working for equality. If she doesn't believe in mutants fighting mutants, what makes you think she'd let them use their powers on defenseless humans?

I might be wrong, I don't have that particular issue sitting next to me...
 
jtg3885 said:
Unless I missed something, doesn't she dispatch her students to the fire? Remember? The fire fighters comment that Frost's people have shown up, not "Oh, there's the mutants we called for." And claiming that the role Emma's students were shown in is anywhere near the role a SWAT team plays is ridiculous. Emma's working for equality. If she doesn't believe in mutants fighting mutants, what makes you think she'd let them use their powers on defenseless humans?

I might be wrong, I don't have that particular issue sitting next to me...

She tells them as they go off that they can't interfere unless they are asked to help.

And you're nit-picking on my calling them a SWAT team, when the only thing i meant by that was a squadron of superhumans. I didn't mean a literal SWAT team.
 
Just stepping in for a sec to say that the firefighters didnt call for Frosts team. Northstar let them know of the situation, and when they got there, one firefighter said, "Oh no, there's Frost's freaks.". And another said to just let them help.
 
Dr.Strangefate said:
And you're nit-picking on my calling them a SWAT team, when the only thing i meant by that was a squadron of superhumans. I didn't mean a literal SWAT team.
Hey, SWAT teams come streaming out of a big old armored truck with guns at the ready. Or at least that's what we see on TV. It's just not a good comparison.

icemastertron said:
Just stepping in for a sec to say that the firefighters didnt call for Frosts team. Northstar let them know of the situation, and when they got there, one firefighter said, "Oh no, there's Frost's freaks.". And another said to just let them help.
Danke ice. *sticks tongue out*
 
Well, SWAT, as we learned on that very cool Samuel L./Colin Ferrell flick, means SPECIALY WEAPONS and TACTICS... I think it's safe to say that Frost's Freaks fit the bill. The seemed to know what they were doing before and while the fire was going on. It's not a far cry from the truth, is all.
 
Goodwill said:
Well, SWAT, as we learned on that very cool Samuel L./Colin Ferrell flick, means SPECIALY WEAPONS and TACTICS... I think it's safe to say that Frost's Freaks fit the bill. The seemed to know what they were doing before and while the fire was going on. It's not a far cry from the truth, is all.
*coughs and points at the WEAPONS part*
 
Yeah, definitely the weapons when you've got Havok and Polaris. It kind of makes you wonder if Emma got the two of them on her team for a reason. :) Yes, I know that's what you've been trying to say all along, Strangefate.
 

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