No AIDS for muties in the UU?

Caduceus

The Original Muffins Man
Fuzzy Birds said:
I can't believe Austen was actually allowed to get away with a story like that in the first place. It's horrifically distasteful, and not in a quirky, endearing way.
It was only a throwaway remark, whats worse. He didn't even have a point behind the idea except to advance his Dirty Bird storyline.

Hawkeye101 said:
Well, Mutants are called Homo Superior, and Human are Homo Sapien. (Homo superior actually means greater wisodm) Which means they are NOT the same species, which is why I was under the impression when you talked about X-Men/Brotherhood/Morlock like mutants it was capitalized, and mutants like albinoism are still the lower case 'M'.
Its Marvel that capitalizes the word mutant, its not technically correct. Its a gimmick.

Hawkeye101 said:
In any case if humans and Mutants are infact two separate species, all protiens are different between species so therefore, there have to bw a few diseases that Mutants are in fact immune to that humans are not. Mutants may even cause a disease among themselves that humans are immune to.
But they aren't. Mutants can come from two normal humans having a baby. That means they're part of the human race.

Hawkeye101 said:
However, Mutants and Humans are in the same genus (Homo). So they are acctually quite similar and are capable of producing fertile offspring. Dogs, Cats, Horses, Cows, Sheep, there are actually the English words for the genus of a species, not the species it's self, because under dog, we still have labradore, huskey, great dane, german shepards, etc. So it is still possible for Mutants and Humans to share diseases. Lions and Tigers are the same genus, along with house cats, but the diseases that can pass between tigers and lions can't pass between house cats, os it's all a real tossup as to weather Mutants can be affected by AIDS, and who says it has to have the same effect?
Being of the same genus effectively means the same vulnerabilities. Labradors and German shepherds can still get the same diseases. Humans of the same genus but different species are different races, basically. An Asian can still have children with a caucasian, and they'll still be human, just with a mixture of the genetic propensities of the parents 'species'.

Mutations are different. As a rule (to which there are of course exceptions) no mutation is identical. Mutants aren't a new species, they're mutations. Variations from the norm.

The problem comes in because Marvel didn't do its research. Marvel mutations aren't scientifically consistent.
 

Hawkeye101

Well-Known Member
Caduceus said:
Being of the same genus effectively means the same vulnerabilities. Labradors and German shepherds can still get the same diseases. Humans of the same genus but different species are different races, basically. An Asian can still have children with a caucasian, and they'll still be human, just with a mixture of the genetic propensities of the parents 'species'.

No, all humans, no matter the race are all Homo Sapien, and if Mutants have been given the name Homo Superior then Marvel has made them an entirely new species.
 

Caduceus

The Original Muffins Man
Hawkeye101 said:
No, all humans, no matter the race are all Homo Sapien, and if Mutants have been given the name Homo Superior then Marvel has made them an entirely new species.
So what your saying is that mutants aren't human? So Xavier's wrong? Because Marvel's pretty firmly of the opinion he's right. Marvel science basically bends to show that what it wants is right.

If a mutant can be born from one human and another, its a mutation from the human genome. Mutants aren't a singular new species, because they don't have common traits beyond their genetic 'template'. Think of it as a tree. Homo Sapiens are the tree, baseline humans are the trunk. Mutants are the branches. They're different, divergences that may eventually grow trees of their own, but they aren't trees.
 
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DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
icemastertron said:
That was never mentioned in 616. That's something that Austen said on the X2 DVD, but it came out more like a joke.

I must not have detected the sarcasm. Seems like something he'd actually attempt to pull off.

Hawkeye101 said:
Well, Mutants are called Homo Superior, and Human are Homo Sapien. (Homo superior actually means greater wisodm) Which means they are NOT the same species, which is why I was under the impression when you talked about X-Men/Brotherhood/Morlock like mutants it was capitalized, and mutants like albinoism are still the lower case 'M'.

Maybe not the same species, but same genus.

In any case if humans and Mutants are infact two separate species, all protiens are different between species so therefore, there have to bw a few diseases that Mutants are in fact immune to that humans are not.

Thats not true. Only a very small amount of proteins are different, and really its just the combinations which are different...and with different species in the same genus, its not much. Goes back to that evolution concept.

Mutants may even cause a disease among themselves that humans are immune to.

Like the Legacy Virus? ;) This is true though, but like I said, AIDS being as resilient as it is, its not outside the realm of possibility for it to mutate to be able to infect them.

However, Mutants and Humans are in the same genus (Homo). So they are acctually quite similar and are capable of producing fertile offspring. Dogs, Cats, Horses, Cows, Sheep, there are actually the English words for the genus of a species, not the species it's self, because under dog, we still have labradore, huskey, great dane, german shepards, etc. So it is still possible for Mutants and Humans to share diseases. Lions and Tigers are the same genus, along with house cats, but the diseases that can pass between tigers and lions can't pass between house cats, os it's all a real tossup as to weather Mutants can be affected by AIDS, and who says it has to have the same effect?

This is true.

By the way, does your scientific knowledge apply to anything other than genetics? I'm just wondering because you've gone on rants about anything having to do with the subject (sometimes starting them totally unprovoked) so I'm wondering if we're going to get the same with chemistry, high-level physics, calculus, etc. ;)

Caduceus said:
Its Marvel that capitalizes the word mutant, its not technically correct. Its a gimmick.

Mutants can come from two normal humans having a baby. That means they're part of the human race.

Being of the same genus effectively means the same vulnerabilities. Labradors and German shepherds can still get the same diseases. Humans of the same genus but different species are different races, basically. An Asian can still have children with a caucasian, and they'll still be human, just with a mixture of the genetic propensities of the parents 'species'.

Mutations are different. As a rule (to which there are of course exceptions) no mutation is identical. Mutants aren't a new species, they're mutations. Variations from the norm.

The problem comes in because Marvel didn't do its research. Marvel mutations aren't scientifically consistent.

Cad makes a very good counter-argument on all points.

Hawkeye101 said:
No, all humans, no matter the race are all Homo Sapien, and if Mutants have been given the name Homo Superior then Marvel has made them an entirely new species.

Without it being scientifically or logically accurate.
 

DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
Caduceus said:
So what your saying is that mutants aren't human? So Xavier's wrong? Because Marvel's pretty firmly of the opinion he's right. Marvel science basically bends to show that what it wants is right.

If a mutant can be born from one human and another, its a mutation from the human genome. Mutants aren't a singular new species, because they don't have common traights beyond their genetic 'template'. Think of it as a tree. Homo Sapiens are the tree, baseline humans are the trunk. Mutants are the branches. They're different, divergences that may eventually grow trees of their own, but they aren't trees.

You know, you're an incredibly smart guy Cad, but I'm pretty sure even in backwards-*** Australia its still spelled as "traits".

;)

But you're absolutley right otherwise.
 

Caduceus

The Original Muffins Man
DIrishB said:
You know, you're an incredibly smart guy Cad, but I'm pretty sure even in backwards-*** Australia its still spelled as "traits".

;)

But you're absolutley right otherwise.
Fear my spelling for I am from the Counterweight Continent of Doom!


Or its starting to get late and mondayitis hit me hard this week. So sue me.
 

DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
Caduceus said:
Fear my spelling for I am from the Counterweight Continent of Doom!


Or its starting to get late and mondayitis hit me hard this week. So sue me.

Why, are you rich? Otherwise it wouldn't be worth the effort.

At least you didn't spell counterweight as "kownterwate".
 

Dr.Strangefate

He Sees You When You're Sleeping. He Knows When Yo
At the top of the page, I really just wanted to reply with "-I'm- a Homo superior", but then it got intelligent... so yeah.

Hawkeye101 said:
No, all humans, no matter the race are all Homo Sapien, and if Mutants have been given the name Homo Superior then Marvel has made them an entirely new species.

Nope, sorry kiddo.

The think is that we aren't Homo Sapiens. Homo Sapiens are extinct... a more primitive form of man...

We are Homo Sapiens Sapiens, a subspecies of the original copy.

Mutants are Homo Sapiens Superior, a new Subspecies.

This -has- been mentioned in the comics at some point, but it confuses people, so nobody mentions it.... I don't remember where I read it, but I know thats what the official word is...

So yeah, I dunno. I think AIDS should affect Mutants, maybe differently, but I think it should be pretty much the same.

...

i'm a HOMO superior

hehehe
 

moonmaster

Without him, all of you would be lost souls roamin
Dr.Strangefate said:
At the top of the page, I really just wanted to reply with "-I'm- a Homo superior", but then it got intelligent... so yeah.



Nope, sorry kiddo.

The think is that we aren't Homo Sapiens. Homo Sapiens are extinct... a more primitive form of man...

We are Homo Sapiens Sapiens, a subspecies of the original copy.

Mutants are Homo Sapiens Superior, a new Subspecies.

This -has- been mentioned in the comics at some point, but it confuses people, so nobody mentions it.... I don't remember where I read it, but I know thats what the official word is...

So yeah, I dunno. I think AIDS should affect Mutants, maybe differently, but I think it should be pretty much the same.

...

i'm a HOMO superior

hehehe
The only time I ever remember hearing Homo Sapiens Sapiens, -Superior was in the first issue of Morrison's New X-Men.





HOMO Superior. Teeheeheehee...
 

Dr.Strangefate

He Sees You When You're Sleeping. He Knows When Yo
moonmaster said:
The only time I ever remember hearing Homo Sapiens Sapiens, -Superior was in the first issue of Morrison's New X-Men.

That's probably where I got it too, but he's probably the smartest guy to ever touch those books, so I trust what he says.
 

Hawkeye101

Well-Known Member
OOOOkay, I'm gonna have to go deep with this one. When a new species evolves from another, (say the saber-toothed tiger into lins and tigers of today (and this is just and example)) the old species (Saber-toothed tiger) produces the new species (lions and/or tigers) because of a mutation. Some males of Saber-toothed cats started to grow manes, and others started to grow stripes. Still the mutated children of these Saber-toothed tigers were capable of mating with the non-mutated relatives and pass on the geneticlly superior mutation.

So what we have here is this, two new species evolved from Saber-toothed Cats. Both, were still capable of reproducing with the old-version, and passes on their genes a lot faster, even though they are now a new species. All three are still cats, but are a new species.

When Xavier says that Mutants are still human, this is both true and misleading. See, in real-world talk there is only one species still alive within the genus Homo, and that would be Homo Sapiens. So when we talk about humans, we talk about everything that falls under the genus Homo. We even call our ancestors to be human (cro-magnon man, neanderthals, cavemen basically), and they are all in the genus homo. They are humans, but we have different names for them as well. We have a name for dogs, but we also call them labradores, Great Danes, etc. Now throw in Homo Superior, they too are 'human' when it comes to the genus. As a species, though, they are Mutnats, although Marvel has failed to give 'regular' humans a species name. Human referrs to the genus, it's just never before have we had to share the genus 'human' with any other species, so we consider our species human as well.

To classify a species we use Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. For example the Killer Whale is (in scientific form) Amilamlia-Vertebrea-Mammalia-Caceanus-Delphinade-Orceanus-Orca, which in English translates to Animal-Vertebrate-Mammal-Whale-Dolphin-Killer Whale. Now wait a minute, were one short in the English version. That's because the only animal within the genus Orceanus is the Killer Whale, so we skip a species name for that animal. Just like humans, Animalia-Vertebrea-Mammalia-Primaeus-(brain fart, I forgot this one)-Homo-Sapien, and in English Animal-Vertebrate-Mammal-Prime Ape-Ape-human. The litteral translation for Homo Sapian is Upright Wisdom, but we tend to call ourselves human. Now a mutant would be the same: Animalia-Vertebrea-Mammalia-Primaeus-(brain fart, I forgot this one)-Homo-Superior, and in English: Animal-Vertebrate-Mammal-Prime Ape-Ape-human-mutation, except the literal translation for Homo Superior is Greater Wisdom, but like with humans, apparently Marvel slacked off and just called them Mutants. So, yes, they are human in the sense that they are in the genus human, but as a species, no, they are not.

As for Homo Sapien Sapian and Homo Sapian Superior? Um, Upright Upright Wisodm and Superior Upright Wisdom? Let's hope marvel doesn't make the same mistake in the UU.
 

Hawkeye101

Well-Known Member
DIrishB said:
By the way, does your scientific knowledge apply to anything other than genetics? I'm just wondering because you've gone on rants about anything having to do with the subject (sometimes starting them totally unprovoked) so I'm wondering if we're going to get the same with chemistry, high-level physics, calculus, etc. ;)

Um, I scored a perfect on the math section of the ACT (for those of you who don't know what that is, it is the Mid-West equivilant to the SAT), and I guess I know a lot about other areas of science. As for high level physics, you mean things like the fourth through tenth dimensions and the theories about them? I'm crazy about this stuff. You remeber when I tried to explain magic? I was acctually referring to an actual theory that there is or are forces that keep the scientific laws in place.
 

Caduceus

The Original Muffins Man
Hawkeye101 said:
OOOOkay, I'm gonna have to go deep with this one. When a new species evolves from another, (say the saber-toothed tiger into lins and tigers of today (and this is just and example)) the old species (Saber-toothed tiger) produces the new species (lions and/or tigers) because of a mutation. Some males of Saber-toothed cats started to grow manes, and others started to grow stripes. Still the mutated children of these Saber-toothed tigers were capable of mating with the non-mutated relatives and pass on the geneticlly superior mutation.
´
Yes, but this isn't an instantaneous process, its a thousand year evolutionary system. Darwinism and ironing out the unsuccessful mutations at the moment. Take the tree metaphor again. Even though each branch could conceivably produce a a seed of some fashion that could grow into another tree, the existence of the branch in a singular fashion (as we have relatively unique mutants) does not guarantee the existence of another tree (or species). At the moment, mutations are isolated anomalies, not genetic trends. Your looking at it over far too broad a scale.

Hawkeye101 said:
When Xavier says that Mutants are still human, this is both true and misleading. See, in real-world talk there is only one species still alive within the genus Homo, and that would be Homo Sapiens. So when we talk about humans, we talk about everything that falls under the genus Homo. We even call our ancestors to be human (cro-magnon man, neanderthals, cavemen basically), and they are all in the genus homo. They are humans, but we have different names for them as well. We have a name for dogs, but we also call them labradores, Great Danes, etc. Now throw in Homo Superior, they too are 'human' when it comes to the genus. As a species, though, they are Mutnats, although Marvel has failed to give 'regular' humans a species name. Human referrs to the genus, it's just never before have we had to share the genus 'human' with any other species, so we consider our species human as well.
Mutants are still human. A singular divergence does not a new species make. Using your Sabertooth tiger analogy, weren't the first tigers to grow stripes or manes still sabretooth tigers? It requires thousands of years of concentrated breeding and divergence to actually make a new species and in terms of Marvel, mutants do not have that time. They're new.

Hawkeye101 said:
As for Homo Sapien Sapian and Homo Sapian Superior? Um, Upright Upright Wisodm and Superior Upright Wisdom? Let's hope marvel doesn't make the same mistake in the UU.
Are you sure you aren't misunderstanding the homo superior remarks? I've always presumed that the superior comes simply from the common english meaning of the word. Homo Sapiens superior. Superior to homo sapiens.

Still, what your presuming is that mutants are a species and they aren't. They don't have the consistent traits that a new species requires. Or, looking at it alternatively, they aren't one new species, they're thousands and thousands, each individual the sole (or almost, allowing for identaical powers and twins) species. As a collection of different species, especially a set of species that has roots in the human genome, its not a given that all of them will be say, immune to human diseases. Wolverine might be, and Cyclops might not be, to put it in context.

Every single mutation is different and has its advantages and disadvantages. Evolution is the weeding of the unsuccessful from the gene pool.
 

DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
Hawkeye101 said:
To classify a species we use Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species. For example the Killer Whale is (in scientific form) Amilamlia-Vertebrea-Mammalia-Caceanus-Delphinade-Orceanus-Orca, which in English translates to Animal-Vertebrate-Mammal-Whale-Dolphin-Killer Whale. Now wait a minute, were one short in the English version. That's because the only animal within the genus Orceanus is the Killer Whale, so we skip a species name for that animal. Just like humans, Animalia-Vertebrea-Mammalia-Primaeus-(brain fart, I forgot this one)-Homo-Sapien, and in English Animal-Vertebrate-Mammal-Prime Ape-Ape-human. The litteral translation for Homo Sapian is Upright Wisdom, but we tend to call ourselves human. Now a mutant would be the same: Animalia-Vertebrea-Mammalia-Primaeus-(brain fart, I forgot this one)-Homo-Superior, and in English: Animal-Vertebrate-Mammal-Prime Ape-Ape-human-mutation, except the literal translation for Homo Superior is Greater Wisdom, but like with humans, apparently Marvel slacked off and just called them Mutants. So, yes, they are human in the sense that they are in the genus human, but as a species, no, they are not.

You just copied that verbatim out of a textbook didn't you?

Um, I scored a perfect on the math section of the ACT (for those of you who don't know what that is, it is the Mid-West equivilant to the SAT), and I guess I know a lot about other areas of science.

Good for you, but now you're just bragging. I didn't ask what you scored on any standardized test, but from your answer I'm assuming your reading comprehension wasn't as up to par as your math scores? ;) By the way, the ACT isn't a mid-west equivalent. Whereas the SAT focuses more on English and Reading comprehension and math, the ACT focuses more on sciences and the more related mathematics. Least thats how I remember it, but its been seven years.

As for high level physics, you mean things like the fourth through tenth dimensions and the theories about them? I'm crazy about this stuff. You remeber when I tried to explain magic? I was acctually referring to an actual theory that there is or are forces that keep the scientific laws in place.[/quote]
 

Hawkeye101

Well-Known Member
Caduceus said:
´
Yes, but this isn't an instantaneous process, its a thousand year evolutionary system. Darwinism and ironing out the unsuccessful mutations at the moment. Take the tree metaphor again. Even though each branch could conceivably produce a a seed of some fashion that could grow into another tree, the existence of the branch in a singular fashion (as we have relatively unique mutants) does not guarantee the existence of another tree (or species). At the moment, mutations are isolated anomalies, not genetic trends. Your looking at it over far too broad a scale.

What part of 'evolution leaps forward' do you not understand?


Caduceus said:
Mutants are still human. A singular divergence does not a new species make. Using your Sabertooth tiger analogy, weren't the first tigers to grow stripes or manes still sabretooth tigers? It requires thousands of years of concentrated breeding and divergence to actually make a new species and in terms of Marvel, mutants do not have that time. They're new.

No Saber toothed cats are in the genus Pantheria, and the species is something greek for 'long tooth' (i can't remember it). Lions are Pantheria Leo and Tigers are Pantheria Tigris, they ARE a new and different species, hell, they're so close to the same thing that Tiger and Lions can still mate with each other and have fertile offspring.


Caduceus said:
Are you sure you aren't misunderstanding the homo superior remarks? I've always presumed that the superior comes simply from the common english meaning of the word. Homo Sapiens superior. Superior to homo sapiens.

No, Homo Sapiens means Upright Wisdom, and Superior is a greek word for 'great" or any derivative of great. It just was one of those words that didn't change in the long grueling process of language evolution. So Homo Superior, Greater Wisodm.

Caduceus said:
Still, what your presuming is that mutants are a species and they aren't. They don't have the consistent traits that a new species requires. Or, looking at it alternatively, they aren't one new species, they're thousands and thousands, each individual the sole (or almost, allowing for identaical powers and twins) species. As a collection of different species, especially a set of species that has roots in the human genome, its not a given that all of them will be say, immune to human diseases. Wolverine might be, and Cyclops might not be, to put it in context.

Actually, as long as the same gene is the only one changed (and for mutants of the Marvel Univerese, Ultimate or otherwise), they are the same species, there are some examples of bacteria for this.
 

Dr.Strangefate

He Sees You When You're Sleeping. He Knows When Yo
Homo Sapiens means Wise Man
Homo Sapiens Sapiens means Wise Wise Man
Homo Erectus was upright man, but they's all extinct.

You are a Homo Sapiens Sapiens, this is fact, Morrison didn't make up the idea of animal subspecies.

Homo Sapiens Superior would mean Superior Wise Man, or simply Wiser Man.

It makes sense, humans and mutants are the same species, but Mutants are a different subspecies than modern man.
 

DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
Dr.Strangefate said:
Homo Sapiens means Wise Man

Which unfortunately isn't actually the case with most people.

Homo Sapiens Sapiens means Wise Wise Man
Homo Erectus was upright man, but they's all extinct.

You are a Homo Sapiens Sapiens, this is fact, Morrison didn't make up the idea of animal subspecies.

Homo Sapiens Superior would mean Superior Wise Man, or simply Wiser Man.

It makes sense, humans and mutants are the same species, but Mutants are a different subspecies than modern man.

Doc scores again!
 

Dr.Strangefate

He Sees You When You're Sleeping. He Knows When Yo
Using Smart people to back me up.

Neanderthals are not even a separate species from modern humans, but that the two forms represent two subspecies: Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens sapiens.

A Link to stuff about diff. Homo Sapiens: http://www.ecotao.com/holism/hu_sap.htm

The Progression has been:

Homo Sapiens Idaltu
Homo Sapiens Neanderthalensis
Homo Sapiens Sapiens

and in Marvel: Homo Sapiens Superior

There are a few proposed evolutionary phases between HSI and HSN, but don't have the Archaeological evidence to back it up.
 

Caduceus

The Original Muffins Man
Hawkeye101 said:
What part of 'evolution leaps forward' do you not understand?
The part where evolutionary leaps are apparently made over the course of a single generation. Doesn't happen.

Hawkeye101 said:
No Saber toothed cats are in the genus Pantheria, and the species is something greek for 'long tooth' (i can't remember it). Lions are Pantheria Leo and Tigers are Pantheria Tigris, they ARE a new and different species, hell, they're so close to the same thing that Tiger and Lions can still mate with each other and have fertile offspring.
Thats great, but you didn't address the point. I was talking about Sabertooth tigers throughout that entire paragraph, I just got lazy and refused to type sabretooth over and over again.

Hawkeye101 said:
No, Homo Sapiens means Upright Wisdom, and Superior is a greek word for 'great" or any derivative of great. It just was one of those words that didn't change in the long grueling process of language evolution. So Homo Superior, Greater Wisodm.
I understand that, but I mean that Marvel is using the literal and curret meaning of superior; not greater, but better than. As in, the opposite of inferior.

Hawkeye101 said:
Actually, as long as the same gene is the only one changed (and for mutants of the Marvel Univerese, Ultimate or otherwise), they are the same species, there are some examples of bacteria for this.
But its not the same gene thats changing. If every mutant had the same gene changing, then there would be a consistency to mutation. Then, mutants would be a species. But its no the same gene. The mutated gene in Cyclops is not the same gene thats mutated in Wolverine.
 

Pandrio

Well-Known Member
Hawkeye101 said:
Some males of Saber-toothed cats started to grow manes, and others started to grow stripes. Still the mutated children of these Saber-toothed tigers were capable of mating with the non-mutated relatives and pass on the geneticlly superior mutation. So what we have here is this, two new species evolved from Saber-toothed Cats. Both, were still capable of reproducing with the old-version, and passes on their genes a lot faster, even though they are now a new species. All three are still cats, but are a new species.
A certain human is born with laser beams shooting out of his eyes, another is born with weather controlling powers. Still the mutated children of these humans were capable of mating with the non-mutated relatives and pass on the geneticlly superior mutation. So what we have here is this, two new species evolved from humans. Both, were still capable of reproducing with the old-version, and passes on their genes a lot faster, even though they are now a new species. All three are still of the same genus, but are a new species.

Doesn't sound like the same species to me :lol: .
 
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