Thoughts about "The Fantastic"

[David Blue]

Welcome David, glad you got your account working.

What specifically did you find disappointing about Inhuman? The Inhuman story, or the Mad Thinker story? Or both?

The general consensus around here was that the Mad Thinker story was very good, and Inhuman was pretty disappointing.

It's good to "officially" meet you on the boards, UltimateE.

I thought Rhona the mad thinker was excellent. She made me feel how scary it is to be up against someone who really is smarter than you are. I have some problems with that story, but they are small ones, and as with Dr. Molekevic's sea monster in New York, I'm willing to let them slide for now.

However, I didn't like the art - but it wasn't terrible.

Inhuman was disappointing.

You see, I liked what Reed said in N-Zone. The Fantastic Four travel underground and meet mad Dr. Molekevic, the Mole Man. They travel overseas, and meet mad, murderous Victor Van Damme. They travel to a whole new (or rather old) universe - "WOOOOO HOOOOO" from me too - and meet Nihil, or as Ben said "E-vil". So there's a tension built up, about meeting people who are morally as well as in other ways great, or at least challenging. (How much of a challenge is it to be a better person than Nihil? Not much.)

OK, next issue, here's the pitch: Inhuman. Great cover, obvious romance hook for Johnny Storm, a sidelong glance (jealousy?) from Sue - and wow what an adventure beckons! You know, after N-Zone, which I loved, my expectations are sky high.

But what do I get?

The art for this whole volume is unattractive and not even clear. It might suit a horror comic very well, but it is not "the fantastic," nor was it romantic.

I didn't like the characterisations of the heroes. Johnny Storm should not have needed to be pushed into motion. Ben Grimm feeding Lockjaw junk was "cute" but not - um, solid, if I can put it that way. And Ben Grimm wanting to clobber lots of people who weren't evil, in a tactically stupid setup, was wrong. Ben Grimm's no intellectual, but he's an athlete and a competitor. He understands fighting to win. And he isn't supposed to be about hitting people who've done nothing wrong. (We got this big long wait for IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME!, and it was thrown away on an inappropriate occasion.) Also, and this is so basic, the Fantastic Four did no exploring, rather they were led around, and they were spoon-fed information. That's wrong.

And the "Inhumans" were mundane "rubber suit aliens" who spoke English and seemed like their culture was watching American television and feeling superior to it. I don't want to meet these boring, shallow, ill-mannered snobs again. And the romance was so utterly weak.

How can writers in future work around this? This defines and establishes these people as not worth talking to.

Reed Richards, looking for someone really marvellous to meet, just struck out.

That's a disappointment.

There are many other objections I could raise, but those are enough.

 

[David Blue]

Hmm. I thought the Fantastic was merely okay. It could have been a lot better.

I love Doom though. My favourite UFF arc so far.

I was happy after The Fantastic, happier after Doom, and after N-Zone I said: that's it, I'm going to collect this. The essence of what I wanted was there from the beginning, in "The Fantastic".

What did you want? Why did the first volume not have it, or not enough of it in a pure enough form, and why did the second, Doom, deliver it for you, ProjectX2?

 

[ProjectX2]

I was happy after The Fantastic, happier after Doom, and after N-Zone I said: that's it, I'm going to collect this. The essence of what I wanted was there from the beginning, in "The Fantastic".

What did you want? Why did the first volume not have it, or not enough of it in a pure enough form, and why did the second, Doom, deliver it for you, ProjectX2?

I only have one sentence for these questions: I love Warren Ellis and Stuart Immonen.

 

[David Blue]

I only have one sentence for these questions: I love Warren Ellis and Stuart Immonen.

Ah! That makes sense.

So, I'm looking at the writer and artist as means to an end, the end being a good portrayal of these characters and the things they stand for, whereas you are looking at Ultimate Fantastic Four as a project for a favourite artist and writer (team?), and Doom is when they got together. Yes?

Was there anything about Ultimate Fantastic Four, or Victor Van Damme, or this particular struggle, that impressed you as being raw material suitable for your favourite talents to interpret?

 

[Goodwill]

Honestly. Warren and Immonen should've never left. I thought the two of them together owned the title.

 

[David Blue]

Honestly. Warren and Immonen should've never left. I thought the two of them together owned the title.

That would be fine by me. If you told me they were going to have a hundred-volume run (and I believed you) I would order the next hundred volumes in hardback in advance. If I didn't live long enough to enjoy them all they would be a treasure for the next generation.

If Warren Ellis and Stuart Immonen had stayed on Ultimate Fantastic Four, they might even have improved. I think Adam Kubert improved slightly from the first volume to the third.

Ultimate Fantastic Four #1: The Fantastic - excellent
Writers: Brian Michael Bendis and Mark Millar (result: good story)
Artist: Adam Kubert (result: appropriate art)
Everybody else - clearly an outstanding team, the product is great

Ultimate Fantastic Four #2: Doom - excellent
Writers: Warren Ellis (result: as good or even better story-telling)
Artist: Stuart Immonen (result: even better, and appropriate, art)
Everybody else - clearly an outstanding team, the product is great

Ultimate Fantastic Four #3: N-Zone - excellent
Writers: Warren Ellis (result: best story yet)
Artist: Adam Kubert (result: improving, and appropriate, art)
Everybody else - clearly an outstanding team, the product is great

Ultimate Fantastic Four #4: Inhuman - disappointing
Think Tank
Writers: Mike Carey (result: excellent story)
Artist: Jae Lee (result: unattractive, inappropriate art)
Everybody else - clearly an outstanding team, the product is great
Inhuman
Writers: Mark Millar (result: very important story done very badly)
Artist: Jae Lee (result: even less appropriate, unattractive art)
Everybody else - clearly an outstanding team, the product is great

I'm not giving enough credit to the long list of people in the credits here. Maybe it was the inkers rather than the artist I liked more in the third volume than in the first. The colours are consistently amazing. I thought June Chung's colours in Ultimate Fantastic Four #4: Inhuman were right for the art - good horror story colours - so well done that colourist!

I'm not concerned about the quality of the art. It's all good. I do like art that looks like it belongs in Ultimate Fantastic Four rather than in (a hypothetical) Ultimate Tomb of Dracula. (shrug) But maybe they had to take who they could get and that was good, just to get the comics done.

It would be natural to say that the first volume was done right, so these are the writers I will always be happiest to see again. But that's not so. The best stories so far (for me) were by Warren Ellis. The second best for me - in quality rather than importance - was Think Tank by Mike Carey. Easily the weakest story and the worst characterisation of the heroes so far was Inhuman by Mark Millar, who half-wrote the first story. It's strange.

I'd say: thanks for the first volume, The Fantastic, Mark Millar, but now stay away and leave Ultimate Fantastic Four to Warren Ellis or at least Mike Carey, who's good.

But I've looked ahead now at the list of material that has yet to be collected into trade volumes, and there's no point in hoping Mark Millar will stay away. I just hope he hasn't written any more stories like Inhuman.

 

[ProjectX2]

You seem very enthusiastic about Ultimate Fantastic Four. I suggest you try Ultimates.

 

[thee great one]

I liked Inhuman. I thought it was done well. It never madesense to me that someone is hiding from the world doesn't want to know what was going on in the outside.

I thought that Think Tank was decent but not incredible. I'm not a big fan of Jae Lee either. He's decent but not really great.

N-Zone wasn't as good as the first two arcs but not bad. I did still liked it.

I thought Doom was a fun read. I didn't really have a problem with it.

I think The Fantastic was one the better stories so far. I really liked it.



Have you read Crossover yet David?

 

[David Blue]

You seem very enthusiastic about Ultimate Fantastic Four. I suggest you try Ultimates.

You're right, ProjectX2: I am very enthusiastic about Ultimate Fantastic Four. It started on exactly the right note: The Fantastic. And it hasn't lost it. And I love that fantastic family.

I'll have a look at the Ultimates, since you and others recommend it.

I took a glance at an issue while I was in the friendly local comic shop where I buy my Ultimate Fantastic Four trade paperbacks. I just thought that the art was pretty and seemed appropriate, Thor's hammer looked dumb (unbalanced) and too big, and - oh is that the time I'd better get what I came for and go. Not really much of a look, or much of an impression. I'll look again.

 

[David Blue]

I liked Inhuman. I thought it was done well. It never madesense to me that someone is hiding from the world doesn't want to know what was going on in the outside.

I thought that Think Tank was decent but not incredible. I'm not a big fan of Jae Lee either. He's decent but not really great.

N-Zone wasn't as good as the first two arcs but not bad. I did still liked it.

I thought Doom was a fun read. I didn't really have a problem with it.

I think The Fantastic was one the better stories so far. I really liked it.



Have you read Crossover yet David?

No, I haven't read Crossover yet, thee great one. I get all and only the trade paperbacks, and Inhuman is the last item on the top shelf (at my friendly local comic shop) so far.

We agree in liking The Fantastic.

One of the things that I like about Doom and N-Zone is that the environment, and the home court advantage, counts. This is Europe, so different laws apply. This is another universe, so your space-suit is vital.

I think it's tough for essentially a fight with a villain (Think Tank) to compete with grand stories of exploration. So I mark that one a bit easier.

Off-topic for this thread, but did you have a problem with the tranquilliser glop being so effective against the Thing?

 

[thee great one]

No, I haven't read Crossover yet, thee great one. I get all and only the trade paperbacks, and Inhuman is the last item on the top shelf (at my friendly local comic shop) so far.

We agree in liking The Fantastic.

One of the things that I like about Doom and N-Zone is that the environment, and the home court advantage, counts. This is Europe, so different laws apply. This is another universe, so your space-suit is vital.

I think it's tough for essentially a fight with a villain (Think Tank) to compete with grand stories of exploration. So I mark that one a bit easier.

Off-topic for this thread, but did you have a problem with the tranquilliser glop being so effective against the Thing?

I thought Crossover was part of the Inhuman trade. Guess I'm wrong. I suggest Ultimates also. It is one of the single greatest series ever. I'm not sure what you are refering to with the glpo?

 

[ProjectX2]

When the Android shot that slime at Thing, which held him in place.

Great Paste Pot Pete reference.

 

[David Blue]

I thought Crossover was part of the Inhuman trade. Guess I'm wrong. I suggest Ultimates also. It is one of the single greatest series ever. I'm not sure what you are refering to with the glpo?

Wait: could "Crossover" be the three odd pages at the end of Think Tank?

1. The Thing gets his blood pressure taken, which I think is wrong. And the Storms have a hint at a family crisis, which I think is also wrong. This is not the way for stories to be told in Ultimate Fantastic Four. I want beginnings - middles - ends, and not an accumulation of beginnings, hints and hooks.

2. Reed Richards reads his email, in effect. I also don't like this. A major issue was raised in N-Zone: the Fantastic Four have gone public now, so what is happening with that? Are the newspapers saying FANTASTIC FOUR SAVE LAS VEGAS! or DESTRUCTIVE FOUR: THREAT OR MENACE!? and how are the Four reacting to this and how will it affect their relationship with the military? If we have three free pages, there is time to deal with this, and now that they are back at the Baxter Building the right time has come. Why would I want a new issue raised, when they're not dealing with the one they have?

3. Full page: Reed Richards goes "Oh My God." My reaction - no he doesn't. He goes "Hmm." Reed Richards knows very well that messages can be fake, and that many of his are. He also knows that Rhona Burchill is out there and would like to mess with his mind, and that he has other possible enemies such as the bidders in Think Tank He should be thoughtful, consider the possibilities. I think he is a little out of character in this panel because he is an advertisement, in effect, for another story.

What I called "the tranquiliser glop" is in the page with this writing:

PHUMP PHUMP PHUMP

REED RICHARDS: Look out, Ben! Don't let that gel --
BEN GRIMM: Ow!
REED RICHARDS: Oh no.

BEN GRIMM: Oh, this stuff is foul!
BEN GRIMM: It's like every bird in New York didn't make it to the bathroom in --

BEN GRIMM: ...

CRASH

One concern here is that this is a one-shot drop on the Thing - a knockout, or a kill with a lethal dose - seemingly any time Rhona the mad thinker chooses to use it again.

Unless she knows there's a tacit rule against hitting the same hero with the same gimmick over and over, he's out any time she pleases, because Ben lacks practical ways of not getting hit. He's not invisible, or protected by a force field, or flying above the fray. He's not stretching, or super-agile to dodge everything. He doesn't has super-senses to be aware of every threat coming. He needs to get in there and slug.

If Rhona really wants to eliminate Ben as an unknown in her equations, she can publish the formula on the Internet, and let malice and big budgets do the rest. For Ben, this is like a sticky krytptonite that can be mass produced, with no "unobtainium" wonder element needed.

Ben seems entirely unconcerned about it, but I think that's just how he was written in that story. In N-Zone he was easily smart enough to see the problems that arise if you alter the balance between offence and defence.

I think the best option here is to say that the Thing does adapt, it just takes him time, the way it took some coughing for him to get used to the atmosphere in Nihil's space station in N-Zone. But, we'll see what the answer is when the time comes.

 

[thee great one]

Well Crossover is a 3-issue arc by Mark Millar and Greg Land that is actually the best arc yet.

 

[David Blue]

Well Crossover is a 3-issue arc by Mark Millar and Greg Land that is actually the best arc yet.

Ah!

I see it now, it's on the list:
http://www.ultimatecentral.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4140

Not (yet) collected in TPB:

* Ultimate Spider-Man # 79 ->
* Ultimate Spider-Man Annual # 1
* Ultimate Spider-Man # ½ *
* Ultimate X-Men # 61 ->
* Ultimate X-Men # ½ *
* The Ultimates 2 # 7 ->
* The Ultimates Annual # 1
* Ultimate Vision # 1 *
* Ultimate Fantastic Four # 21 -> [HERE WE GO!]
* Ultimate Iron Man # 1 ->
* Ultimate Secret # 1 ->
* Ultimate Marvel Team-Up # 6-8 *

Good. That gives me something to look forward to. Say no more on that.

 

[ourchair]

A belated welcome from me, David Blue.

Glad you like UFF as much as I do, as it's the Ultimate book I look forward to the most. That's no surprise since ourchair = Fantastic Four as MWOF = Daredevil and Ultimate Deadpool and Widdle Wade = Deadpool and Hawkeye101 = Hawkeye.

But the way I look at it is that there are very few things that are too crazy and too outlandish and too fantastical for the Fantastic Four, and UFF being the youngest book means it has the most untapped potential of all the Ultimate titles so far.

Strangely enough, I'm just as enamored of N-Zone's defining moment --- When Reed complains of people who wants to set up their own butt-hat franchises instead of looking at the world with wonder --- as much as you are.

As for Ben's "Clobbering Time" moment: I liked it. I loved how understated it is and how gruffly he put it. The delivery is so nicely curmudgeonly it reminds you of what The Thing's attitude is towards butt-headed villains is without contradicting the youthful spirit of the Ultimate character.

 

[David Blue]

A belated welcome from me, David Blue.

Glad you like UFF as much as I do, as it's the Ultimate book I look forward to the most. That's no surprise since ourchair = Fantastic Four as MWOF = Daredevil and Ultimate Deadpool and Widdle Wade = Deadpool and Hawkeye101 = Hawkeye.

But the way I look at it is that there are very few things that are too crazy and too outlandish and too fantastical for the Fantastic Four, and UFF being the youngest book means it has the most untapped potential of all the Ultimate titles so far.

Strangely enough, I'm just as enamored of N-Zone's defining moment --- When Reed complains of people who wants to set up their own butt-hat franchises instead of looking at the world with wonder --- as much as you are.

As for Ben's "Clobbering Time" moment: I liked it. I loved how understated it is and how gruffly he put it. The delivery is so nicely curmudgeonly it reminds you of what The Thing's attitude is towards butt-headed villains is without contradicting the youthful spirit of the Ultimate character.

And a belated glad-to-meet-you from me, ourchair.

It's a pleasure to meet a fellow Ultimate Fantastic Four fan, especially one who relates to Reed Richards' N-Zone speech as much as I do.

On the clobbering time moment... We've built up to it gradually, which is nice. There are two "clobbering time"s so far.

1. The quiet little "clobbering time" as Ben picks up Nihil's pillar. I agree that one is perfect. And Nihil was truly, deeply deserving of everything Ben might do to him.

But that wasn't the full-throated CLOBBERIN' TIME! So there was still just one stage left to go.

2. The second and complete IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME! - with fancy red letters outlined in heavy black, a jagged word balloon and an earth-shaking blow - was near the end of Inhuman.

This didn't seem like all that grand an occasion. It takes more than standing around at a private ceremony in your own land to make you as deserving of the full clobberin' treatment as Nihil was. That fight seemed to me to be unjustified, going nowhere, a guaranteed loss just on numbers, or all of the above.

Anyway, here's an obligatory on-topic thought on The Fantastic, the topic of this thread: what do you think happened to that motorcycle? I mean the one that Reed Richards had made for his father, the very special, unique, one-of-a-kind custom job, the best Reed Richards could make as a gift for his father.

In relation to the Richards family, Reed is always a dummy, resourceless, a loser. The members of his family define him as such - he can hand in any paper he likes, and they'll still mark it a "fail" emotionally. It's only when Reed stays over at the Storms' house - the Baxter Building - that Reed gets to be a smart boy. Their dad loves Reed.

Home is where the heart is,
Home is so remote.
Home is just emotion
Sticking in my throat.
Let's go to your place.
Let's go to your place.

"Home"
- Lena Lovich

So as always in dealing with his birth family, with the motorcycle, Reed got it wrong, or rather he was defined as wrong. His father hated the colour, and no up side was mentioned. Reed had not found the formula to get his parents to come visit him either.

How many major characters are there in the Ultimate Universe that would get the very best custom made special motorcycle that Reed Richards could make for them and see nothing good in it? I don't know - are there any at all?

Which raises the question: who eventually wound up with this item, and what did they do with it?

 

[ourchair]

But that wasn't the full-throated CLOBBERIN' TIME! So there was still just one stage left to go.

2. The second and complete IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME! - with fancy red letters outlined in heavy black, a jagged word balloon and an earth-shaking blow - was near the end of Inhuman.

I actually haven't read Inhuman. Compound usually picks up my comics for me and I have yet to get them from him.

Anyway, here's an obligatory on-topic thought on The Fantastic, the topic of this thread: what do you think happened to that motorcycle? I mean the one that Reed Richards had made for his father, the very special, unique, one-of-a-kind custom job, the best Reed Richards could make as a gift for his father.

...Which raises the question: who eventually wound up with this item, and what did they do with it?

Hm. I pretty much thought that there isn't much to be made out of that motorcycle and that it's just another one of Reed's attempt to connect with a family that fails to appreciate that gesture.

But you pursue an interesting plot point there. That motorcycle could be some kinda tricked out crazy thing that in the right hands, could be written into an interesting story opening, or at least some quirky fan fic.

 

[David Blue]

I actually haven't read Inhuman. Compound usually picks up my comics for me and I have yet to get them from him.

Then I'll refrain from spoiling you any more. Ultimate Fantastic Four: Vol. 4: Inhuman isn't on-topic for this thread anyway.

Hm. I pretty much thought that there isn't much to be made out of that motorcycle and that it's just another one of Reed's attempt to connect with a family that fails to appreciate that gesture.

I thought it was great for that. I don't need Reed's family issues revisited, because I think the first volume effectively covered everything, economically and with an emotional punch that would not be improved by rehashing.

It was the magnitude and quality of the pearl that the swine were ignoring in the phone call scene that set me back, and got me to think a bit. If it's for his own dad, and he has a strong motivation like wanting a visit from his parents, just how cool a mega-motorcycle could Reed Richards have built?

But you pursue an interesting plot point there. That motorcycle could be some kinda tricked out crazy thing that in the right hands, could be written into an interesting story opening, or at least some quirky fan fic.

I think it would be best for fan fiction, which would best be written in a warm, light-hearted style by someone with a truly loopy imagination.

And I'm pretty sure that cycle was tricked out like - no, better than - a James Bond movie vehicle. It would be the kind of motorcycle that someone who was already working on the Fantasticar would come up with. For a person with attitude and some training, that alone would be enough to make you a superhero or a minor supervillain.

 

[David Blue]

I also like how long it took us in The Fantastic to find out that Reed Richards is not only an inquisitive genius but a fool for blondes: it's there in the first page, with a second for emphasis, and the failure to connect with his birth family amply foreshadowed too. Beautiful stuff, in my opinion.