TheManWithoutFear said:
Convenient.
You're right about Widow not likely being taken down so easily. I dunno I just don't want to see some lifelike android. They were making sweet sweet love afterall.
It was a fully functional android? Thats not the point. I didn't say thats how it
should work out, I'm just saying it was a possible way to Ultimize the LMDs. Hence me saying her kidnapping him for information is a possible reason for him not being dead yet.
Vegetable-Man said:
Am I the only one who see's Pym as the saving grace?
He's the only person who could get Thor and Cap out.... maybe it's time for a little redemption for the Giant-Man....after all, he's had his face in **** sence volume one...... I think it's very possible that he lets them both out of there cages a little double-double cross perhapes............ or maybe just wishfull thinking on my behalf......
Another thought, assuming he has conversed and plotted with the enemy, perhapes he knows a weekness in there masterplan......
Very good points Veggie. I'd like to see Hank get some of that redemption he so desperately needs.
TheManWithoutFear said:
It was explained in the USM game. No one seems to be seeing the connection between him and Green Goblin. Everyone so far has said Hulk + Godzilla. It's so obvious.
Dude, its not gonna happen. Just let it go. It is a coincidence, yes, but I really doubt Millar is going to associate the U2 plot with the USM video game in any way. He's sort of too much of an elitist in terms of his own characters and plot to do that. Maybe not in all cases, but certainly with something as critically and financially successful as Ultimates is.
Definitely was thinking that too. Not the floating pot but I thought a toned down DIrishB's idea and just have Jarvis be a robot would kinda be a good twist and not as over the top as Tony being an android too.
So a Jarvis android is believable but not a Tony one? It would make much more sense for Tony to be the android given his higher profile and threat of assassination/kidnapping/ransom/etc.
Entropy said:
The idea of Jarvis being a cybernetic program is interesting. Though, a few questions raise to mind, especially like why blood would be shown from his head when he was shot if he was digital or something. Still, interesting idea.
Jarvis isn't a robot. He's a corpse. FACT.
And any guy who can strike a 21 Jump Street style pose like he's in on the last page and make it look THAT GOOD is too crazy for words.
Better than Depp, for sure.
See, but there is one more aspect of his character that needs to be addressed. Hank is a sad, pathetic, waste of a man who DESPERATELY wants to be a superhero. And on THAT characteristic, I am not only ok with the possibility of his turning out to be a saving grace, I would be suprised to not see it show up in some form.
I agree. Otherwise its an unrealized aspect of the character. And while that does fit the tragic character aspect, it would just leave a sour taste in my mouth regarding that character. But thats just me.
Dr. Strangefate said:
And I've been thinking... is it possible that there are other Asgardians around here? I mean, like background characters.... *cough*Jarvis*cough*
I'm kinda hoping we see Odin soon.
What if Jarvis is really Odin? Whoa, that'd be a head trip.
Guijllons said:
Ok, we have to consider that the Ultimates is ahead of everything else in the timeline. Unless Spidey is conveniently on holiday at the time of the attack, it has to be mentioned, something has to happen in his book right? Or would that just be really crass and crossoverish?
I already covered this, Mr. Repetitive.
No, I wasn't suggesting that. I was remarking that it feels a little like a 616 crossover event if other titles are involved. Each story should be self contained and all that. There is no avoiding it I suppose.
I know what you're saying and agree to a point, but also think it kind of lessens the impact of the event. If its just ignored in the other titles, really, how far reaching and serious are the effects?
Entropy said:
In a story involving an event this massive, I don't think there is a way to avoid the other supers being involved in some way. It just wouldn't make sense for the Ultimates (and possibly the Union) to take them out on their own while the rest do nothing. I don't think this should cross over into other books stories though, at least not right now.
Do you all remember in the USM "Double Trouble" arc, Kong makes an off-hand reference to Magneto's attack on the Brooklyn Bridge? It should be approached in a similar manner. Not to where it affects the plot of the other titles significantly, but at least minorly addressed and acknowledged.
compound said:
You know what I'd like to see? The Defenders redeeming themselves by actively taking part in the civilian evacuation and relief operations efforts. I'd love to see them just stop being such self-absorbed wanna-be super-heroes, for once, and really lend a hand, to the best of their human abilities. Surely those guys must have some kind of professional skills or training. Let them really live up to their name.
So you think the Defenders deserve redemption and Hank doesn't? Not following that logic. I mean you're entitled to your opinion, I just expected you to expound on your reasoning
much more for it, as you usually do
TheManWithoutFear said:
Damnit!! I was just about to say this. Actually I was thinking more in the lines of all of them taking about 3 hours to take down one of those robots that took Quicksilver seconds.
Considering they couldn't even take out a small group of street punks stealing cigarettes, they'd all end up dead very quickly against one of those robot-thing-a-majigs.
E.Vi.L. said:
Hold your horses on Pym being such a pathethic loser.
It's pretty clear that this guy suffers from Manic Depression. Notice the highs and the lows. Sometime he's being insanely creative, almost manic, other time he gets depressed and even violent and these swings occurs quite abruptly.
He has some degree of bipolar disorder. The Prozac we know him to be on (Jan holds a bottle in Ultimates #2) is as a matter of fact one of the medication often prescribed for bipolar disorders.
And bipolar disorder are largely a genetic condition.
So basically, it's not entirely his fault if he is the way he is. And while not all bipolar end up beating their spouse, most spouse of a bipolar do not pick up an argument while their bipolar husband is in a down swing... Not saying Jan deserved to be beaten, but she sure as hell could have picked a better time to have an argument with her husband considering she should know better than most that he was very vulnerable at that particular moment.
So I hope he pulls through as a hero. But even if he doesn't, we are not quite dealing with "The banality of Evil" here. This is a guy who needs support and who has had it pulled from under his feet at the worst possible moment.
Extremely intelligent and relevant post. I myself was diagnosed with bipolar/manic depressive disorder two years ago, and on many levels have been able to relate to Hank. While I don't get violent or beat people up (most especially women), the lack of confidence, motivation, and direction has been protrayed very believably, along with the sudden changes in attitude. Not all Hank's problems are from outside circumstances, a lot are due to his own bad choices, but its not like the guy is some random *******.
XFactor said:
This is absolutely brilliant. That's all there is to it. The art is beautiful, it's all action...brilliant.
Did you SEE how many of the Greenies and Red Robots there were? And that's only Manhattan? That multiplied by all the other cities and areas attacked...Fury himself said there must have been millions of them pouring out of the Anti-Hellicarriers...or whatever they are. The spread with the Goliaths and the S.H.I.E.L.D. soldiers (are they flying or falling???) being torn apart...I gotta' say, that's horrifying. I know three countries are part of this for sure (Dynamo says China, N. Korea and Russia), but isn't "the Arabs" kind of vague? How many countries are in on this?
I mean, think of the sheer numbers you'd need for all the vehicles, super soldier programs, construction of the robots, etc... It's as if an ENTIRE country's population were attacking with the Anti-Ultimates.
That was actually the one problem I had with it. With as advanced the technology SHIELD has, and the overall paranoia of Fury alone, how the hell did they miss this? How did they not see the construction and training for all these ships and soldiers. I mean even with our own real-world level of technology our government would surely have gotten some info about this, let along SHIELD's slightly more advanced technology. Still, was a great story, just want to see that explained a bit.
compound said:
I'll keep this brief, since this is not the place to debate 'psychological vs. genetic' factors, with regards to mental illness, but suffice it to say that I have first-hand experience with friends who are diagnosed with the condition, clinically, but have (more or less) opted to "own" it, and work through the condition with thearapy, rather than resort to an expensive pharmaceutical treatment, because they firmly believe they are not "genetically hard-wired" that way. They wanted to take responsibility and accountability for their conditon, because they believe it was brought on by social and envieronmental effects on their persoanlity, that they can "unlearn".
As somebody with no experience in professional psychology, I can't assess how well they're recovering.
As a friend and loved one, I'd say they're dealing with it fairly well.
Take it from someone with first-hand experience, therapy/counseling works MUCH better than any pill I've ever been prescribed, and in the two years I've been taking meds for it, I've tried 7 different prescriptions, from SSRIs (anti-depressants) to mood stabilizers. Honestly the best way to work through it is to learn about it as much as possible, get the counseling, and learn about yourself and why you react the way you do to things. Simple as that.
How is placing superhumans into internment camps -- which, I assume, is what "containment" refers to -- any different from the work of the bureaucrats and administrators who ran the Nazi concentration camps? I honestly want to know. It's knowingly turning a blind eye to something evil on the basis that it's being done, on your part, without malice, as part of some larger institutional plan.
Hmmm, sounds a lot like Guantanamo.
E.Vi.L. said:
What I know is that some mental illness are clearly genetic and others are "all in your head". Bipolar is close to schyzophrenia as a genetic diseases.
Just don't confuse the symptoms/results as the same. Schizophrenia is a whole other animal.
Light bipolar disorder can learn in therapy ways to cope with their illness and lessen its impact on their lives. Recognizing you are in a downswing and being able to act accordingly to reduce the effect it has on your life is huge victory for these people.
Definitly, the problem is in the recognizing though. Its a slow process, it creeps up on you, so the depression begins to feel normal. You just kind of ignore it at first, but it gets increasingly worse as time goes by. Unfortunately many have to be hospitalized against their will before they realize and are diagnosed with a problem. It also doesn't help that it tends to strike people in their very late teens to early twenties, when many are living on their own, usually away at college or working away from family. Your family knows you better than anyone else, so they'd probably notice the behavioral change even before you. Its sort of a Catch-22.
Heavier case really can't help it. The serotomin and dopamin levels (I'm sure I have slaughtered the spelling) vary just too wildly in their brain for them to function effectively without medication.
Not too bad on the spelling, only one letter off in each. Its "serotonin" and "dopamine".
It's like being able to control yourself while slightly drunk VS being able to control yourself while high on a cocktail of crack and speed.
I wouldn't say thats a fair analogy in either case. The best way to describe it is a sense of pervasive hopelessness, isolation, subconscious fear, unbridled anger, etc. I'm convinced the worst of it is the closest I'll come to Hell while I'm still alive. Its hard to truly appreciate unless you've experienced it, but be glad for that, its certainly no picnic.
However, it is manageable, which is whats important.
I really have no idea how "heavy" is Hank's condition.
I'd say he's got a pretty serious case, compounded by his vast intelligence and insecurities.
compound said:
I bet analogies like that could get a Psych 101 professor fired! But I get your point now.
The bipolar person I know is a cousin, and while I've never discussed it at length with her -- honestly, I'm clueless about how to approach the topic, which is pretty messed up, I know -- I would imagine that her case is diagnosed as light.
I'd say the best way to approach her about it is to be up front. Just ask her what its like (but don't ask her how she's doing with it, not right away at least, seem condescending in a way). Just show you're interested and not taking pity, try your best to understand, and I'm sure she'll appreciate it and develop a newfound respect for the effort you put forth.
If we want to carry on the discussion about Bipolar Disorder, I guess we can start a new thread about it.
That would make more sense. MWoF might be a regular poster in that thead though.
Dude! I'd be seriously worried if I ever passed out with Millar and Hitch nearby
Why? You pass out around Ourchair often enough and that has to be substantially riskier.
