Does the Ultimate Universe lack villains who rely solely on brains?

The Overlord

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It seems to me, that unlike dCU or 616 MU, Ultimate Marevel doesn't have many villains who rely solely on brains. Ultimate doom for example has super powers. Many of the best super villains are ones who rely on intelligence and have no powers (ex: Lex Luthor and Joker.) Plus many of the non powered villains are treated liker jokes in the UU (ex: Vulture, Shocker, Boomerang, etc)
 
Well, the UU also has less villains than either 616 or DCU. Doom is a bad example, since 616 Doom is an accomplished sorcerer.
 
Well, the UU also has less villains than either 616 or DCU. Doom is a bad example, since 616 Doom is an accomplished sorcerer.

But there aren't a lot of villains in the golden age either and they had the opposite condition, almost none of them had powers.

Plus there is fact that almost all of the purely tech based villains in the UU, are jokes.

Lex and Joker are valid examples, as well as the Red Skull, another important villain with no real powers. Doom is at least border line, with most of abilities are just self taught skills or extensions of his own intelligence. Ultimate Doom is more "super powered" than his 616 counterpart.
 
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But there aren't a lot of villains in the golden age either and they had the opposite condition, almost none of them had powers.

Plus there is fact that almost all of the purely tech based villains in the UU, are jokes.

Lex and Joker are valid examples, as well as the Red Skull, another important villain with no real powers. Doom is at least border line, with most of abilities are just self taught skills or extensions of his own intelligence. Ultimate Doom is more "super powered" than his 616 counterpart.

This could be, in large part, because the idea of a superhuman arms race is so important to the Ultimate line.
 
This could be, in large part, because the idea of a superhuman arms race is so important to the Ultimate line.

True, that's a valid point.

But there is no reason not to try other plot lines now and again. I wouldn't mind more villains posing a threat to Spidey, simply by out smarting him, rather than outfighting him.

I would say there a few villains with no powers per say, Kingpin doesn't in theory (though Ultimate Kingpin is an exact copy of his 616 counterpart and I would say both versions have meta human level strength and durability) and I suppose Elektra has no powers either. Mad thinker is also a toss up.

Though it does seem sometimes they promote the idea that villains without powers arten't threats (which is why Ultimate Shocker, vulture and Boomerang are jokes). The human mind can be more dangerous than any super power.
 
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True, that's a valid point.

But there is no reason not to try other plot lines now and again. I wouldn't mind more villains posing a threat to Spidey, simply by out smarting him, rather than outfighting him.

I would say there a few villains with no powers per say, Kingpin doesn't in theory (though Ultimate Kingpin is an exact copy of his 616 counterpart and I would say both versions have meta human level strength and durability) and I suppose Elektra has no powers either. Mad thinker is also a toss up.

Though it does seem sometimes they promote the idea that villains without powers arten't threats (which is why Ultimate Shocker, vulture and Boomerang are jokes). The human mind can be more dangerous than any super power.

I feel like it's good to have some characters that are thugs, especially with Spider-Man, but you're right. There aren't a lot of non-powered villains.

There's Kingpin. and the Tinkerer. There's Nick Fury, who's an antagonist, if not a villain. Silver Sable.
 
I feel like it's good to have some characters that are thugs, especially with Spider-Man, but you're right. There aren't a lot of non-powered villains.

There's Kingpin. and the Tinkerer. There's Nick Fury, who's an antagonist, if not a villain. Silver Sable.

Still most of the A-list villains out there are ones with the brains, powers don't count for much if the hero can just out smart you. Its hard to base a whole arc around some thug with powers, mostly they are just minions for a more intelligent villain, who motivates the story. Thug villains are nothing more than infantry level soldiers, the smart villains are the generals.

I wouldn't count Fury as villain and I think Sable is debatable. kingpin would count, though he is more or less a clone of the 616 Kingpin. I forgot about Mole Man, he would count as well.

Still I would like to see Spidey go up against more villains who prove to be a mental challenge rather than just physical one. I think a revamped version of Trapster could sustain a mini arc (just like how Clock King was more of a threat in BTAS then in the comics) just switch his gimmick from glue to death traps.

Heck batman's rogues gallery is made up mostly of criminals who have no powers but are very cunning and he has the best rogues gallery around.
 
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Heck batman's rogues gallery is made up mostly of criminals who have no powers but are very cunning and he has the best rogues gallery around.

To be fair, though, that's because Batman doesn't have powers. :wink:

I agree to a point. Spider-Man should have more villains without powers, but if you're picking from 616 villains, most of Spidey's villains have powers. Same with the X-men, Fantastic Four and Avengers (Ultimates), which are the only books represented in the Ultimate Universe at the moment (Outside of crossovers). If there were, say, an Ultimate Daredevil series we'd probably see more non-powered villains, as Daredevil is, arguably, Marvel's Batman. It's just difficult to give super-powered heroes non-powered villains. There are, of course, exceptions (Lex, for example), but it's relatively rare.
 
I don't necessarily consider 'unintelligent' villains a bad thing, but I do agree with Overlord that the Ultimate universe does need a few more brains.

The problem is that the Ultimate Universe just seems to be written in a way that if 90% of people who actually turned out to be smart, logical and cunning fellas, would never turn to villainy.

As Zombipanda points out, the UU revolves around a superhuman arms race. That kind of authorial intent pretty much allowed Bendis, et al to talk about the inherent self-destructiveness of the human race and the role that equalities and inequalities of power have in maintaining a sane social order in modern society.

Thus, if ANYbody in the Ultimate Universe was actually smart, then they wouldn't be a villain. They'd start thinking long-term or look past being petty twits who just want to have a piece of the world. And if you look at the villains of the Ultimate Universe, petty twits is exactly what they are. Some examples:
  • THE GOOD: Magneto wants a new social order, so he's basically a terrorist who may have some kind of ambition for himself. He's crazy and greedy with a goal. Crazy and greedy for not just himself, but for all of mutantkind by espousing an order in which humans are just obsolete.

  • The BAD: Theoretically, Norman Osborn was smart. He built a bio research company out of almost nothing. But by the time we meet him, he stopped being a scientist years ago and was pretty much just after a fat, lucrative contract. His intelligence took a backseat to his own greed.

  • THE UGLY: Theoretically, Victor Van Damme is also a smart guy. But he's got an inferiority complex that pretty much stunts him of any kind of ambition. He's too busy picking on everyone to set any real goals for himself.
 
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It seems to me, that unlike dCU or 616 MU, Ultimate Marevel doesn't have many villains who rely solely on brains.

I'm going to disagree with that, what about the Mad thinker, Rhona Burchill. Sure she expanded her brain by grafting some of her mothers brain tissue unto her own but, she was pretty much working only with brain power to try and take out the UFF
 
Isn't the Leader going to be an intelligence only villain?
 
Isn't the Leader going to be an intelligence only villain?

That's what I was going to say. Although it might be too early to know for sure.
 
I don't necessarily consider 'unintelligent' villains a bad thing, but I do agree with Overlord that the Ultimate universe does need a few more brains.

The problem is that the Ultimate Universe just seems to be written in a way that if 90% of people who actually turned out to be smart, logical and cunning fellas, would never turn to villainy.

As Zombipanda points out, the UU revolves around a superhuman arms race. That kind of authorial intent pretty much allowed Bendis, et al to talk about the inherent self-destructiveness of the human race and the role that equalities and inequalities of power have in maintaining a sane social order in modern society.

Thus, if ANYbody in the Ultimate Universe was actually smart, then they wouldn't be a villain. They'd start thinking long-term or look past being petty twits who just want to have a piece of the world. And if you look at the villains of the Ultimate Universe, petty twits is exactly what they are. Some examples:
  • THE GOOD: Magneto wants a new social order, so he's basically a terrorist who may have some kind of ambition for himself. He's crazy and greedy with a goal. Crazy and greedy for not just himself, but for all of mutantkind by espousing an order in which humans are just obsolete.

  • The BAD: Theoretically, Norman Osborn was smart. He built a bio research company out of almost nothing. But by the time we meet him, he stopped being a scientist years ago and was pretty much just after a fat, lucrative contract. His intelligence took a backseat to his own greed.

  • THE UGLY: Theoretically, Victor Van Damme is also a smart guy. But he's got an inferiority complex that pretty much stunts him of any kind of ambition. He's too busy picking on everyone to set any real goals for himself.

There is a difference between intelligence with wisdom, one could be completely intelligent in certain areas, but that doesn't mean they wouldn't have psychological problems or personality defects that turns them into bad people.

Look at bin Laden, he had more than enough money to live a comfortablelife, but now he is living in a cave and sendsd all his time comming up with ways to kill people. Same deal with Hitler or Stalin, they were intelligent people, they didn't have to do bad and destrctive things, but because of their personality, they did so anyway.

Its completely realistic that all those intelligent people yoiu mentioned are still villains, it happens in real life all the time. Humans just aren't rational some times.

If you look at something like the Holocaust, you would realize it doesn't make sense. There was no reason to do it, it was counter productive, diverting war resources to a project with no military benefit. The victims of the Holocaust posed no real threat to the Reich, its why the Holocaust was considered one of the ost evil things in history, it was evil for evil's sake. Plus its pretty clear that the process of the Holocaust was created by intelligent people, stupid people would never create something that complex. Someone like proves there are intelligent people out there, with no morality or wisdom.

That's what I was going to say. Although it might be too early to know for sure.

But his intelligence is super powered base, its like he was someone who had spend years honing and developing their wits, he was just a guy who become super intelligent because of super powered human engineering.

To be fair, though, that's because Batman doesn't have powers. :wink:

I agree to a point. Spider-Man should have more villains without powers, but if you're picking from 616 villains, most of Spidey's villains have powers. Same with the X-men, Fantastic Four and Avengers (Ultimates), which are the only books represented in the Ultimate Universe at the moment (Outside of crossovers). If there were, say, an Ultimate Daredevil series we'd probably see more non-powered villains, as Daredevil is, arguably, Marvel's Batman. It's just difficult to give super-powered heroes non-powered villains. There are, of course, exceptions (Lex, for example), but it's relatively rare.

Actually in the 616 universe there are quite few Spidey villains with no real powers: Chameleon, Shocker, Vulture, Mysterio, etc. There are other rogues galleries where a hero with powers faces off against villains who rely on gimmicks, like several of Flash's villains: captain Cold, Heat Wave, Trickster, captain Boomerang, etc.
 
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I don't necessarily consider 'unintelligent' villains a bad thing, but I do agree with Overlord that the Ultimate universe does need a few more brains.

The problem is that the Ultimate Universe just seems to be written in a way that if 90% of people who actually turned out to be smart, logical and cunning fellas, would never turn to villainy.

As Zombipanda points out, the UU revolves around a superhuman arms race. That kind of authorial intent pretty much allowed Bendis, et al to talk about the inherent self-destructiveness of the human race and the role that equalities and inequalities of power have in maintaining a sane social order in modern society.

Thus, if ANYbody in the Ultimate Universe was actually smart, then they wouldn't be a villain. They'd start thinking long-term or look past being petty twits who just want to have a piece of the world. And if you look at the villains of the Ultimate Universe, petty twits is exactly what they are. Some examples:
  • THE GOOD: Magneto wants a new social order, so he's basically a terrorist who may have some kind of ambition for himself. He's crazy and greedy with a goal. Crazy and greedy for not just himself, but for all of mutantkind by espousing an order in which humans are just obsolete.

  • The BAD: Theoretically, Norman Osborn was smart. He built a bio research company out of almost nothing. But by the time we meet him, he stopped being a scientist years ago and was pretty much just after a fat, lucrative contract. His intelligence took a backseat to his own greed.

  • THE UGLY: Theoretically, Victor Van Damme is also a smart guy. But he's got an inferiority complex that pretty much stunts him of any kind of ambition. He's too busy picking on everyone to set any real goals for himself.

I've got to respectfully disagree. Just because you're mad intelligent doesn't mean you can't also be a sociopath, or greedy, or self-absorbed. I don't think the "Truly intelligent people will ultimately do good" theory holds water.

I think the fact of the matter is, anyone who's intelligent, and who's striving for the sort of things that will put them up against Spider-Man or the FF or the Ultimates (power, money, revenge, fame), will recognize that they'll have a rather large advantage if they have some sort of super power to fall back on if they do come face to face with super heroes. And since all you need in the Ultimate Universe to give yourself powers is a Billy Nye Science Fun Kit, I'd say it's the reasonable option for any up-and-coming villain - intelligent or not.
 
I've got to respectfully disagree. Just because you're mad intelligent doesn't mean you can't also be a sociopath, or greedy, or self-absorbed. I don't think the "Truly intelligent people will ultimately do good" theory holds water.

I think the fact of the matter is, anyone who's intelligent, and who's striving for the sort of things that will put them up against Spider-Man or the FF or the Ultimates (power, money, revenge, fame), will recognize that they'll have a rather large advantage if they have some sort of super power to fall back on if they do come face to face with super heroes. And since all you need in the Ultimate Universe to give yourself powers is a Billy Nye Science Fun Kit, I'd say it's the reasonable option for any up-and-coming villain - intelligent or not.

Still I think there is something to be said about villains who challenge a hero solely with their intelligence. Look at Lex Luthor, sure in DCU, there are likely a million different ways he could give himself, but that would be contrary to the character, he doesn't need powers and given his perversion of humanism ideology, means that he would prefer not use powers against Supes, plus it ruin the dynamic. Why bother getting the powers yourself when you could just have some other sap do it and then control him?

Getting super powers could be dangerous and fighting super heroes yourself is risky, a smart person knows when to delegate.
 
Ultimate Green Goblin is intelligent and has Powers. He has used both to his advantages , His powers he used to well beat the holy **** out of Spider-man.

His intelligence he used to do things like figure out who Spider-man was , Blackmail spider-man in to joining him in Ultimate six.


Sure he may not as genius as 616 version but he still is intelligent , I think the reason there is not evil genius like 616 or DCU is Ultimate universe is more realistic and has S.H.E.I.L.D looking over everything.

So take Lex from DCU , In Ultimate universe he acted like that and nick fury would be all over him so fast it wouldn't be funny. That's why they need powers too , At least that way they can challenge the heroes and fight off S.H.E.I.L.D as best as possible.
 
Ultimate Green Goblin is intelligent and has Powers. He has used both to his advantages , His powers he used to well beat the holy **** out of Spider-man.

His intelligence he used to do things like figure out who Spider-man was , Blackmail spider-man in to joining him in Ultimate six.


Sure he may not as genius as 616 version but he still is intelligent , I think the reason there is not evil genius like 616 or DCU is Ultimate universe is more realistic and has S.H.E.I.L.D looking over everything.

So take Lex from DCU , In Ultimate universe he acted like that and nick fury would be all over him so fast it wouldn't be funny. That's why they need powers too , At least that way they can challenge the heroes and fight off S.H.E.I.L.D as best as possible.

Its not Fury hasn't been outsmarted before, notice how the Liberators had him on a wild goose chases and then where able to take over America, he wasn't very good at stopping that. I would give Lex good to even odds against him. It would be easy to right a character as being as or even more intelligent than Fury.

Plus there could be villains who are just very intelligent serial killers, assassins or other criminals. They would just fly under Fury's radar, Fury wouldn't have given a flying fig if most of the Batman villains appeared in the ultimate Universe. What's more realistic than deranged maniac whose only powers are his cunning and psychopathic personality?
 
Its not Fury hasn't been outsmarted before, notice how the Liberators had him on a wild goose chases and then where able to take over America, he wasn't very good at stopping that. I would give Lex good to even odds against him. It would be easy to right a character as being as or even more intelligent than Fury.

Plus there could be villains who are just very intelligent serial killers, assassins or other criminals. They would just fly under Fury's radar, Fury wouldn't have given a flying fig if most of the Batman villains appeared in the ultimate Universe. What's more realistic than deranged maniac whose only powers are his cunning and psychopathic personality?


True with Batman villains , but for one reason Batman has no powers. Say Joker was a Spider-man villain with how fury was pretty much watching Spider-man very closely it would put Joker on Fury's radar

He was watching superheroes closely so take Superman , He would watch him and that would lead him to Lex

Also the "hahaha i'm just pulling the strings" now days unless it's the old charracters it seems cheesy most of the times. Some villains though are still very intellegent

I mentioned Goblin , Doc Ock is another as he caused the clone saga how can that not be considered intelligent ? Kingpin is another and as close to the lex thing as possible with out been too much. Also I would count R.H.I.N.O as he built that cool assed suit


The Ultimate Universe has villains who rely on brains but they have other qualities too like powers which makes them more deadly as we expect a big fight now days.
 
True with Batman villains , but for one reason Batman has no powers. Say Joker was a Spider-man villain with how fury was pretty much watching Spider-man very closely it would put Joker on Fury's radar.

Fury seems to have done jack about Kingpin, so I don't think he would Spidey against Joker, Two-Face or Scarecrow. Simply put he helps Spidey when its in his interest to do so, spending time looking for serial killers with gimmicks isn't a good use of time. Spidey would be by himself against someone like the joker and though he could beat him in fist fight, that's not how Joker operates, Batman could beat him in fist fight as well. I will also note that Spidey has several 616 villains don't have powers and they seem do alright for themselves.

He was watching superheroes closely so take Superman , He would watch him and that would lead him to Lex.

Lex likely goes golfing with the President every Sunday, it would take more than suspicions to put him away. Fury would solid evidence which is easier said then done. Thant's ignoring how much


Also the "hahaha i'm just pulling the strings" now days unless it's the old charracters it seems cheesy most of the times. Some villains though are still very intellegent.

Really, mastermind villains are cheesy. I don't think it was cheesy when red Skull killed Captain America with no powers besides his own cunning. Some villains, like the red Skull don't need to have powers to be a threat.

I mentioned Goblin , Doc Ock is another as he caused the clone saga how can that not be considered intelligent ? Kingpin is another and as close to the lex thing as possible with out been too much. Also I would count R.H.I.N.O as he built that cool assed suit.

That was more impressive before Ock had got magnetic powers, that was just BS pulled out at the last minute in order to have a fist fight at the end. Ock not having magnetic powers at the end and relying solely on his wits from beginning to end would have been better. magnetic powers for Ock are cheesy.


The Ultimate Universe has villains who rely on brains but they have other qualities too like powers which makes them more deadly as we expect a big fight now days.

Bah, there are have been several villains from red Skull to Lex Luthor to Joker. I would like to see Spidey take a villain who has no powers, but can pose threat just because of his cunning. That would nice change of pace.
 
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