@selfishmisery I FOUND IT!!!
"Hello everyone.
Anyone who isn't on the Discord hasn't heard from me in 8 months. Anyone who is on the Discord barely has anyway.
I plan to address that and then find a new normal. This is not that. This is a premature message because I was alerted to what was happening with
Daredevil: Season 1 in my absence and wanted to ensure the explanation of the original decision was clear. I have not read anything else and will likely not respond to a good portion of it anyway when I do, as I transition into a new background phase of my time here.
But yes, in my absence, it's been brought to my attention that things are being uprooted from my years on the wiki based on the fact explanations were not written onto the pages. I'm sad to hear this, because there only weren't explanations because we weren't allowed for some time. There still exists the years of Timeline Discussion archive - except the migration in 2020 partially killed them and we didn't get responses about restoring them, so that's also disappointing if the lack of restoration has also caused this.
So I want to be clear in case there's any doubt:
Daredevil: Season 1 is not placed in early 2015 because we didn't fully consider late 2014. We did.
I suppose Marvelus might be the last remnant of that time alongside me, so maybe you guys will be surprised to hear that I think from the time I joined the wiki in 2015, I advocated from late 2014. (This was 10 years ago, so apologies if I'm misremembering exact details of what happened, I'm not intentionally misleading if so.)
Marvelus and I were considered to be
pushing the boat out at the time by trying to argue that
Jessica Jones: Season 1 needed to be moved to early 2015 from its November 2015 position, and
Daredevil: Season 1 needed to also move accordingly ideally to late 2014 to make room and to fit that "2 years" line. There was a strict "real time policy" that was considered to even override things like "18 months ago" in
Jessica Jones: Season 1 being by January 2014, which we had to fight hard to get broken. I do remember starting on Season 2, getting to the apparent July 2015 date in
Bang, and excitedly messaging about how this is further proof we need to break real time and push things earlier. And being told to wait until I've watched the whole season - that user's implication being about the Christmas ending, which changed the implications about when Season 2 was set.
Season 2 made it clear: my argument for Season 1 in late 2014 is no longer tenable. "We met once before, you and I. Before you went after me in court. Do you remember? It was at an art gallery, several months ago." (Combined with the cast quotes about 6 months, which were taken more seriously at the time than we probably do now.) That line made it clear: Season 1 was set in the same year as Season 2. But okay, we can push it as early as possible in 2015 - fit the "2 years" line as much as possible (take it that it's slightly fudged, e.g. "the last 2 full years", "the last 2 calendar years", "the last 2 fiscal years"), while still 2015. Sure, that'll do. Around this time we were therefore allowed to move Netflix to break real time. (Sidenote: I would be happy to actually revisit
Daredevil: Season 2/the start of
Luke Cage: Season 1 a bit and see about stretching
Daredevil: Season 2's epilogue jump even more again, because there's a date I think in
Luke Cage: Season 1 Episode 3 on his phone that I remember on rewatch thinking "Oh... that's not
that far off... maybe,
maybe we can make it work.)
That then settled. I occasionally doubted it. The Comic Board had placed it based on I think a "December 2014 date on a newspaper in the finale" that didn't actually exist, if I recall correctly. Geekritique had stuck with late 2014, and so many times over the years we've heard about "You should check out Geekritique, he goes through the evidence" and been asked to question things. It would bother me from time to time, but the fact of that "several months ago" line in particular meant nope, this is right.
When Season 3 came along, all doubts were set aside. "2 years" mentioned a couple of times in late 2017. In fact a stretch for early 2015, but obviously it can't be later than early 2015, and works. Rules out late 2014 again; cemented Season 1 as poised in that now precarious-but-perfect compromise position of being a stretch for "2 years" after the Battle of New York while also a stretch for "2 years" before Season 3, but in the only place that just about at a stretch fits both. Which also coincides with fitting "several months ago" in Season 2. It's in the only place it can be and that's sorted now, a relief.
That's some background. Okay, let me now go through this proposition page and the things mentioned in the page's reference.
- "In Into the Ring, Karen Page states, "The last two years have transformed [Union Allied]," with Matt Murdock replying, "Yeah, the world watched half of New York get destroyed." This suggests that two years have passed since the Battle of New York on May 4, 2012 (see 2012 references)."
- Not going to argue. As I say, I was originally an advocate for 2014. Absolutely, in an ideal world, Season 1 suggests it should be 2014. There is some flexibility in this line as mentioned, but I'm not going to suggest that's ideal.
- "Matt Murdock and Foggy Nelson left Landman and Zack shortly before acquiring their law licenses on July 20, 2014 (see other references). With the season occurring early in their legal careers, this would suggest it's only been a few short months since they left Landman and Zack." In reference to: this.
- Favours 2014, but this is very, very minor I'd suggest. 4 months vs. 6 months doesn't make any real difference.
- "Editions of the New York Bulletin featured throughout the season contain adverts for a "Fall Special" on dental implants, suggesting that the season occurs during the fall."
- Can I get some clarity on this? I think I remember this from the auction, is it just from that? Or is it clearly visible in the show? Do we have any screenshots?
- "Over the course of the season, the weather goes from temperate to cold, implying that the season occurs closer to the end of the year when it begins to get colder, rather than the beginning of the year when it begins to get warmer."
- Favours late 2014 - again, always agreed Season 1 suggests late 2014. But I don't think it's particularly getting warmer in February.
- "On January 23, 2015, WHiH Newsfront posted on Google+, "Crime rate finally stable in New York. Are the Avengers to thank? Find out tonight at 10." Charlie Cox stated that the crime rate in New York City plummeted as a result of criminals being aware of Daredevil's work following the end of Season One. Since WHiH Newsfront posted in real time, this means that the season must end a bit before January 23, 2015."
- As an aside: I would also just recommend slightly rephrasing the "posted in real time" thing for better clarity for how that applies to the MCU.
- "The season must end a bit before" I think is strong wording here. It still fits for his vigilante actions to be ongoing. If anything, it arguable makes more sense before he has a known identity that would be credited.
- "What appears to be a large pine tree covered in decorative lights in the background at the end of Daredevil, which would fit with being Christmastime."
- Is there a screenshot of this?
- "In Daredevil, following Wilson Fisk's arrest, Foggy Nelson states, "Fisk still needs to go to trial. Just getting a court date on a case this big could take a year." In Reunion, in October 2017 (see 2017 references), Benjamin Donovan states that Fisk was convicted "two years" prior. Coupled with Nelson's line, this would suggest that Fisk's arrest was roughly three years prior to late 2017."
- By the way, just slight error there in needing to link to Daredevil (episode) instead.
- Okay, so, this reference is slightly leading I think. For a number of reasons:
- "For the past 2 years, ever since his unjust conviction on racketeering charges, our client has maintained his innocence and fought to clear his good name." They are seemingly referring to his entire time fighting to clear his name lumped in with the moment he was charged, i.e. it was all 2 years ago. Like what I've always said about Spider-Man in Homecoming: "Everyone else said I was crazy to recruit a 14-year-old kid," "I'm 15." Or Rise and Shine: "Listen, my team wasn't hiding all these months." Referring to two times at once because they're close together and meant to mean the same thing with the number: "Everyone else said I was crazy to recruit a 14-year-old kid?" "I am (and was) 15". "Listen, my team wasn't hiding all the months before December which are also all these last months." (Which in both those cases, caused problems.) "For the past 2 years, our client has maintained his innocence - ever since everything that happened with those unjust charges and convictions." I agree there's flexibility in the line on its own nonetheless if necessary, I'm not saying it can't be stretched - but I think you would have to agree that it ideally on its own also implies 2 years of Fisk insisting on his innocence. You don't think he maintained his innocence for the first year?
- Secondly, there's an oversimplification here. The implication of the way this reference is written is that: "Foggy implied it will take a year, and then it's been another 2 years, so that implies 3 years." Firstly, Foggy implied it could take up toa year. Secondly, the reference there implies that the trial happened in late 2015. We know it happened by July, right? I'm hazy on that Season 2 montage's details. But I actually think you can still make an argument here generously, just not phrased like this. I would suggest on this particular sentence, the more convincing argument is two separate things: "Benjamin Donovan says
, which might be taken to imply it has been 2 years since Fisk was first exposed - however, given he only specifically mentions the conviction, it can be taken to be only referring to his 2015 conviction at trial." And separately, "Season 2 shows that Fisk was convicted by mid-2015. In
Daredevil, Foggy says,
. While it seems it did not take that long, it nonetheless implies Season 1 is more likely late 2014 than early 2015."
[*]So yes, there is, therefore, a point to what you're saying about Foggy's line (I would just phrase differently, as I say). But the fact remains that The Man in the Box confirms it did not in fact take close to a year in the end, which is more important. Foggy's pre-speculation vs. the established timeline afterwards.
[*]And then equally importantly, the reference misses out the accompanying crucial Season 3 line which is what further implies the "2 years" Donovan line was likely meant to also refer since Season 1 - the line that's more clearly and directly about Season 1. That is...
-
[*]
"You protected her... 2 years. You kept Vanessa safe when I couldn't."
- This is not addressed in the reference and is very important. Vanessa was taken from Fisk in Daredevil and from that moment could not be protected by him. For 2 years. Of course, again, we can find flexibility. Just like we can with the Avengers line. But there's no denying this implies 2 years since Season 1, and that line is being neglected here.
When you add it up, there are these four most crucial pieces of evidence.
- "The last 2 years have transformed the business. There's new owners, new grants, new contracts." "Yeah, the world watched half of New York get destroyed."
- Implies Season 1 is 2014 (around May ideally), with a bit of flexibility if necessary.
- In November, "We met once before, you and I. Before you went after me in court. Do you remember? It was at an art gallery, several months ago."
- Implies Season 1 is early-to-mid-2015, with very little flexibility. Not "last year", "several months ago". It's November. There is no way you would say "several months ago" rather than "last year" if it was last year. (This alone, to me, snaps it into 2015.)
- "For the past 2 years, ever since his unjust conviction on racketeering charges, our client has maintained his innocence and fought to clear his good name."
- Implies likely Season 1 and Fisk's conviction are 2015, with a bit of flexibility if necessary.
- "You protected her... 2 years. You kept Vanessa safe when I couldn't."
- Implies Season 1 is 2015 (around November ideally), with a bit of flexibility if necessary.
We have "a bit of flexibility" both ways with the three different "2 years" lines, and only one solution fits all: Use the flexibility to fudge the
The Avengers line to 2 years 8 months, use the flexibility to fudge the Felix Manning line to 2 years 9 months, and fit the Donovan line (closer to a straight 2 years since his conviction, but his being exposed just about also fitting as "2 years", overall fitting the line's implication).
These "2 years" lines at worst cancel out, though arguably already overpower for 2015 by 2 to 1 (I mean, the
clear implication in Season 3 is it's 2/just over 2 years since Season 1). And then that's
before you even factor in the "several months ago" line that firmly cements it as early 2015. These are, to me, the four decisive pieces and three of them suggest 2015.
I agree, there are minor pieces that suggest late 2014 (as I referenced above, I would be interested to see a little bit more about them). Because I agree, Season 1 at the time was best placed in 2014. I will never deny that because I always felt that and am with you. But these minor pieces now pale in comparison to the major ultimately decisive things I just listed.
And then we also shouldn't forget, there are minor pieces that also favour 2015 which are being forgotten. I'm not saying these are significant, the same way I'm not saying the others are significant. But they are also worth mentioning as counter-balances that are being neglected here:
- The Union Allied "Spring 2015" promotional advert (obviously referring to the real world release date so should not be taken too seriously).
- The 2015 article date in Season 1 (cannot be taken too seriously since it's I think September 2015? somewhat ridiculously, but still).
- Then, a bit more significantly, we have the way the flashbacks work out:
- The Creel vs. Murdock fight takes place on a "Saturday", and it's "12 de noviembre" according to the Blu-Ray. i.e. Saturday, November 12, 1994.
- Stick therefore meets Matt in 1995. Having ice creams in the spring/summer. They were together 1995, maybe into 1996.
- In Kinbaku flashbacks set in 2005, "I feel like I've told you more in the last 10 minutes than I've told anyone else in 10 years." Stick left in 1995.
- Stick: "You've been gone 20 years." And, "Took you 20 years to learn how to get out of that one." "Yeah, I've learned a lot since you've been gone." It's 20 years since 1995.
- Not suggesting there's no flexibility here either with rounding assumptions, but it's also gone neglected here.
Look, again, I really get the appeal of late 2014. I advocated for it. But focusing on the bigger picture, there is only one significant piece of evidence that pulls it to late 2014 now compared to three pulling it to 2015, and early 2015 is the perfect compromise between the pull of all the evidence.
So, I really hope you'll reconsider.
- I also hope that if you do, your great work here should not be seen as gone to waste, and can be implemented in improving certain associated placements with plugging in the slightly different numbers to still recalculate some things more accurately. It can also absolutely be implemented in writing the referencing/strengthening the evidence basis, as you have done. Challenging things is understandable and can indeed strengthen confidence and I definitely think this conversation makes things more robustly considered and examined.
- If you don't, I will admittedly be very sad to see the work undone. But I hope you at least realise it is was never as simple as us having "not spotted the better option" or not looked into the evidence properly, the way for example Geekritique fans or people on Reddit would assume of us. That it was never simple, and we have put plenty of consideration and discussion into this before, and our work could be trusted. I'm glad to have my voice involved again at least."
P.S. Not bothering to eliminate links and seconds, idk why this windows were created, I just copy pasted it. Also he breafily talks about us, YAY!
