Babylon 5

[Bass]

Interesting. Is it weird that I'm getting a Das Boot vibe from that description?

It's probably intentional. I wouldn't be surprised.

I'm going to sit down and re-watch Firefly/Serenity and Crusade again to help make up my mind. Still leaning towards Mal, but thats probably just because I'm more used to him and his personality. Gideon is frigging awesome, though. Much like Michael O'Hare's Sinclair, the more you watch him, the more he grows on you. Nice avatar, by the way.

Thanks! I also love Eilerson. "So... you have a magic rock that provides you with a mystical place to a metaphorical book that gives you answers to questions we haven't asked yet, and you want us to spend days in hyperspace, based on that?"

I honestly missed it. I can't remember the links!

"You must save the eye that does not see."
"You must not kill the one who is already dead."
"And at the last, you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you."

Worked 'em out?

Would you be interested in a B5 timeline I put together? Its a simplified Spreadsheet file, with all the episodes, novels, comics, short stories, etc in chronological order (with a bit of overlap in certain instances where episodes and novels cross-over). I'll email it to you if you're interested.

I actually have an official chronology that includes all the novels and short-stories which I believe you can look through here. Seems to be an online version of the book.

 

[DIrishB]

Thanks! I also love Eilerson. "So... you have a magic rock that provides you with a mystical place to a metaphorical book that gives you answers to questions we haven't asked yet, and you want us to spend days in hyperspace, based on that?"

"You must save the eye that does not see."

I assume this refers to G'Kar, and the events of Season 4 with Cartagia, Londo, and G'Kar as prisoner on Centauri Prime.

"You must not kill the one who is already dead."

Hmmm... I'm at a loss.

"And at the last, you must surrender yourself to your greatest fear, knowing that it will destroy you."

Is this a reference to the Fall of Centauri Prime?

Worked 'em out?

I'm going to need the Babylon 5 Guide for Idiots, I think. Or I could just re-watch it.

I actually have an official chronology that includes all the novels and short-stories which I believe you can look through here. Seems to be an online version of the book.

Thats actually the timeline I based mine off, but its incomplete (depending on your view of the canonicity of the short stories). It completely ignores (or was just written before the release of) Genius Loci (the Lyta and G'Kar story picking up about six weeks after the leave the station in Season 5), Space, Time, and the Incurable Romantic (the Marcus/Ivanonva clone story picking up hundreds of years after the Season 5), "True Seeker" (a story involving the Alyssa Beldon, the teenage telepath from Season 1, Na'Toth, and G'Kar's daughter), and "Nautilus Coil" (a Lyta/Garibaldi adventure also occuring after the show's end, mid 2260's before Lyta dies in the Telepath War). I think there may be a couple of the novels missing as well, and I know the comic series "In Valen's Name" wasn't included.

Nautilus Coil is a great story, if for nothing else than the examination of the evolution of telepathy and how its the anti-thesis of intelligence (a telepathic animal wouldn't need to learn to hunt, or develop genetic traits to improve its ability to survive...with telepathy, they could just shut down the mind of the animal they're hunting and consume it, preventing any genetic mutations in the endgame of evolution). Very interesting.

Like I said, if you want me to email you my version (which is basically the same as the one you linked to, just with the additions of the missing material in a spreadsheet format for easy viewing, and color-coded based on the episodes, novels, comics, etc), PM me your email and I'll send it to you.

 

[Bass]

I assume this refers to G'Kar, and the events of Season 4 with Cartagia, Londo, and G'Kar as prisoner on Centauri Prime.

Indeed. G'Kar was the "eye that did not see" Cartagia's splendour. If he had, G'Kar wouldn't have an eyepatch in the future, so who knows what would've changed?

Hmmm... I'm at a loss.

Morden is 'already dead'. If Londo had not killed him, the Drakh wouldn't have come to Centauri Prime out of revenge and he wouldn't have been given the keeper.

Is this a reference to the Fall of Centauri Prime?

It's when he accepts the throne and the keeper. It's his greatest fear because he knows if he takes it, he will die, strangled to death. But he takes it because it's his only chance to save his people and redeem himself. Which he does. *sniff*

Thats actually the timeline I based mine off, but its incomplete (depending on your view of the canonicity of the short stories). It completely ignores (or was just written before the release of) Genius Loci (the Lyta and G'Kar story picking up about six weeks after the leave the station in Season 5), Space, Time, and the Incurable Romantic (the Marcus/Ivanonva clone story picking up hundreds of years after the Season 5), "True Seeker" (a story involving the Alyssa Beldon, the teenage telepath from Season 1, Na'Toth, and G'Kar's daughter), and "Nautilus Coil" (a Lyta/Garibaldi adventure also occuring after the show's end, mid 2260's before Lyta dies in the Telepath War). I think there may be a couple of the novels missing as well, and I know the comic series "In Valen's Name" wasn't included.

Nautilus Coil is a great story, if for nothing else than the examination of the evolution of telepathy and how its the anti-thesis of intelligence (a telepathic animal wouldn't need to learn to hunt, or develop genetic traits to improve its ability to survive...with telepathy, they could just shut down the mind of the animal they're hunting and consume it, preventing any genetic mutations in the endgame of evolution). Very interesting.

Like I said, if you want me to email you my version (which is basically the same as the one you linked to, just with the additions of the missing material in a spreadsheet format for easy viewing, and color-coded based on the episodes, novels, comics, etc), PM me your email and I'll send it to you.

I'm pretty certain all that stuff is in the book I have which is a couple-hundred pages and it definitely has the Marcus/Ivanova clone story in it.

 

[DIrishB]

Indeed. G'Kar was the "eye that did not see" Cartagia's splendour. If he had, G'Kar wouldn't have an eyepatch in the future, so who knows what would've changed?

Morden is 'already dead'. If Londo had not killed him, the Drakh wouldn't have come to Centauri Prime out of revenge and he wouldn't have been given the keeper.

It's when he accepts the throne and the keeper. It's his greatest fear because he knows if he takes it, he will die, strangled to death. But he takes it because it's his only chance to save his people and redeem himself. Which he does. *sniff*

Ah, ok. Masterfully done, also. JMS did a great job of setting up the characters' motivations early on, thereby allowing himself and the show (and its characters) plenty of time to grow, especially in this sense. The "strangled" to death parallel is great too.

I'm pretty certain all that stuff is in the book I have which is a couple-hundred pages and it definitely has the Marcus/Ivanova clone story in it.

I'm going to have to track one of those down.


There's been some rumbling of new B5 back in April or May, but haven't heard anything new yet. Wonder if anything will come of it. Hope so.

 

[Bass]

Ah, ok. Masterfully done, also. JMS did a great job of setting up the characters' motivations early on, thereby allowing himself and the show (and its characters) plenty of time to grow, especially in this sense. The "strangled" to death parallel is great too.

What do you mean?

I'm going to have to track one of those down.

Here you go. Direct from JMS.

There's been some rumbling of new B5 back in April or May, but haven't heard anything new yet. Wonder if anything will come of it. Hope so.

I doubt it. BABYLON 5 is an odd franchise in that it's made a lot of money for WB but it never gets supported in terms of moving projects along. It got it's five years, and ever since every attempt to do something with it has failed, which is odd because it's now a proven property. And, if I'm honest, as much as adore B5, I think JMS has lost the passion that drove the show in the beginning. His work post-B5 has been lacking. :?

The amusing thing is this: JMS owns the movie rights to B5. He's said if he gets himself together to do a movie, he'll pitch it to WB and unless they do it his way, he can just go to any other studio and offer them a franchise.

 

[DIrishB]

So I'm rewatching all the B5 episodes/movies (as well as reading all the novels--even the non-canon ones--and comics) in chronological order. Started with the first two Psi Corps novels and The Shadow Within, and last night watched The Gathering and the first few episodes of Season 1. I save In the Beginning for towards the end, since it's a bookend tale of Londo describing the Earth/Minbari war and spoils some important questions raised by the first couple seasons.

Of course I'll include Crusade, The Lost Tales (and it's tribute comic), and the horrible Legend of the Rangers pilot.

Off to continue Season 1 (in JMS's preferred viewing order, which means having to switch out DVDs and jump around episodes a fair bit).

 

[DIrishB]

The amusing thing is this: JMS owns the movie rights to B5. He's said if he gets himself together to do a movie, he'll pitch it to WB and unless they do it his way, he can just go to any other studio and offer them a franchise.

I'd heard that, and I know be just started his own production company, so you never know.

The biggest problem is the age of the actors at this point. Due to the storyline of the show (centering around Babylon 5 between it's creation in mid 2250's and destruction in 2281), you're kind of stuck telling stories within that timeframe. A large number of the major role actors have died (Commander Sinclair most recent, G'Kar and Dr, Franklin), and the rest have aged a fair amount (it's been almost 15 years since it went off the air). Sure, make-up can do a lot, but at this point if you're going to do a B5 movie, you'd probably have to set new characters up, which could be a good thing.

Even a direct to DVD movie exploring The Telepath War or something that acts as a resolution and conclusion to Crusade (pretty unlikely) would be welcome. I know he originally was going to do the movie The Memory of Shadows, but I suppose that's been shelved permanently as well. At the very least I'd like to see those stories novelized or adapted into a comic, acknowledging the likelier lower quality in those forms but still preferring that as opposed to nothing.

 

[Bass]

Yeah, every couple of years there's the whole "B5 may come back!" and it never does.

I miss B5. I wish I knew the ending of Crusade.

 

[DIrishB]

Yeah, every couple of years there's the whole "B5 may come back!" and it never does.

Yup. I'm surprised WB isn't more motivated to try and revive it in some form, given the lack of any old school sci fi franchises currently on TV (namely Star Trek). Granted there are plenty of such shows on Sci Fi channel, but I think a B5 or spinoff of it could do quite well in today's TV market. I understand JMS may be kind of over B5, but they could easily utilize his extensive unused scripts, notes, etc to tell a new story, perhaps with him in a consulting role (like Ellison did on the original) and occasionally writing scripts.

Heck, even shop it to the cable networks like SciFi or AMC (since those networks seem willing to take chances and invest well in shows they believe in). Even if that means smaller seasons (10-12 episodes per season) to save on costs and generate the best possible product.

I miss B5. I wish I knew the ending of Crusade.

Gideon wins the cure in a high stakes poker game with the Drakh, saves everyone, and the last episode was to end with everyone dancing in a chorus line.

Or not.

 

[Bass]

Yeah, I don't understand why B5 hasn't been rebooted already. It sounds like the kind of thing that should've happened by now considering BATTLESTAR GALACTICA's success. I'd love to see a reboot considering the production values shows like GAME OF THRONES and BATTLESTAR GALACTICA have. Or even FIREFLY. The station would look like a damn city today. It would be incredible. And B5 deserves that kind of reboot because it pioneered CGI on TV. Here's hoping that if they do blu-rays, much like what they did for STAR TREK, the blu-rays will redo all the special effects from scratch.

As for a proper reboot; I'd also hope a reboot would intentionally play with the narrative; focus more on the Non-aligned worlds and build on the cultures to create more of the show and fix things JMS wasn't happy with (an EA ambassador, especially when the ISA formed, for example) and so on. I think if someone went to town on B5 the way they did for GALACTICA, it could work really well — provided they kept JMS' work ethic of fully planning out the series in advance. GALACTICA's "make it up as we go" really caused it to fall apart, as it did LOST and HEROES, as audiences eventually walked away as they realised no answers worth their time were coming, if at all. BABYLON 5 is still one of the best examples of longform storytelling I've seen. It's meticulous, and no matter what you change, that needs to stay the same. But really, who has that kind of discipline and talent in TV today? Loads. TV is awesome. But they're not going to use that talent rebooting someone else's show. They'll do their own one. Vince Gilligan won't reboot THE X-FILES when he's done with BREAKING BAD. He's got his own stories to tell. JMS had his own story to tell. The only option I suppose would be someone hungry for their own show, but they don't have enough clout to do their own intellectual property. But it's more likely they'd adapt a novel that hasn't been on TV before, like the guys who did DEXTER, TRUE BLOOD, or GAME OF THRONES.

 

[DIrishB]

A reboot could work, and definitely fix whatever problems the original might've had, but personally I'd prefer a sequel series as the existing universe is so rich and still full of story potential.

There are a number of places they could go with such an approach. I'd like to see a show that follows David Sheridan (Delenn and Sheridan's son), exploring his work as a Ranger, set a few years after Sleeping in Light, after B5's destruction, somewhere in the mid 2280's. While something similar was attempted with the horrible Legend of the Rangers pilot, I don't think the Rangers should be the main focus, just one of the aspects. What made B5 so awesome were all the different characters, their histories, and different cultures. An ensemble approach with David as one of the main characters among a number of others would be perfect. I'd kind of like to see it as a perfect combination of B5 and Crusade, where the idea is in the post Shadow War universe of B5, there are still problems requiring both a diplomatic touch and sometimes military force. The idea would be like a mobile B5, less a station but a very large and technologically advanced ship built by a large number of alien races and utilizing and combining technology from each (Human, Minbari, Centauri, Narn, Non-Aligned Worlds, and even leftover Vorlon and Shadow tech from the war), obviously symbolizing and continuing one of the symbolic principles of B5 that cooperation results in more than working against, in terms of both ideas and products. And just like B5 had ambassadorial representatives from each race, the same would apply to this ship, but also would have Rangers from each race (except for Vorlons and Shadows obviously) as a sort of military ambassador for when the going gets rough. It would utilize the same idea as being a mobile base for diplomatic talks for peaceful resolutions from everything to border and trade disputes, to a larger threat that'd serve as this shows main antagonist. They'd travel from system to system, settling disputes on worlds and space stations, and when necessary break out the guns and fighters to stop Raiders, slavers, criminals, etc. It'd also allow for a nice balance of established sets for the ship, but break that up every few episodes by setting portions on the various planets with their different environments and looks.

Ideally there'd be a long term storyline, perhaps planned over 3 years as opposed to 5 (studios might be less apprehensive that way), though I haven't given it much thought. Perhaps something involving the Drakh as a continuation or carry over of the Crusade storyline.

If it were successful, maybe it'd open the door for a couple more TV movies, one focusing on The Telepath War, the other as a short-form resolution to Crusade.

 

[Bass]

I think, the further away you get from the Shadow War, the less interesting the show becomes. I loved CRUSADE because it really was a fallout of the Shadow War and the whole thing was about who had left over Shadow tech, which was a great spin on it. The problem with LEGEND OF THE RANGERS was that the "Hand" were the Shadows again, but not the Shadows. I agree that the world of B5 is extremely rich, but the problem is that the core of its richness is that all these worlds that you care about, trapped in a truly intergalactic war that spreads across the centuries as it does across the stars. Any follow up series or movies that doesn't have that scale inherently built-in to it is going to fall short.

 

[DIrishB]

That's a good point. I'm certainly not against a reboot, just love the original universe and show so much I'm more partial to seeing it continue in that form.

I'm hoping with JMS's new production company he may eventually be motivated to get B5 on the big screen (as he's talked about for years, right up to a few weeks ago in a post regarding his new company and a B5 movie being a possibility). In fact if I remember correctly, he said the only way he'd revisit B5 is in movie form. The good news about him owning the B5 movie rights and now with his own production company means he'd likely have almost complete creative control and limited or no studio interference.

 

[Bass]

Yeah, I doubt it'll happen for many reasons. :/

 

[DIrishB]

Yeah, I doubt it'll happen for many reasons. :/

Well if not I can always enjoy the original. Just started Season 2 of my re-watch.

 

[Bass]

Everytime I rewatch it, I keep thinking, "Maybe this time, Londo won't destroy Quadrant 37..."

 

[DIrishB]

Everytime I rewatch it, I keep thinking, "Maybe this time, Londo won't destroy Quadrant 37..."

He gets his redemption in the end, though. I love how JMS twisted Londo's premonition of his death at G'Kar's hands (and G'Kar's at his) from the expected mortal enemies merely killing each other, to respected rivals, arguably reluctant friends, doing each other a strange but understandable favor. Genius. It's also why I save In the Beginning for towards the end, and then Sleeping in Light.

 

[Bass]

Yes. I think the irreducible core of the show is Londo's story.

 

[DIrishB]

So finished up my chronological watch/read-thru of the B5/Crusade series. Watched all 6 TV seasons, 7 TV movies, 18 novels, 15 comics, and 6 short stories, all in chronological order.

Finished up with Out of the Darkness (third novel in the Legions of Fire trilogy), then watched In the Beginning (even though it's mostly a prequel, I feel it's best watched towards the end since the framing story occurs there--of Londo telling the story of the Earth/Minbari war in 2278--since even the events placed in the past spoil plotlines from Season 1-4), Sleeping in Light, and finally Space, Time, and the Incurable Romantic (final short story and entry in the B5 timeline).

Will likely do it all over again in a few years.

 

[Bass]

I've not read any of the novels or comic books. But we should really call this show Dibylon 5.