Enterprise Aflame

Lynx

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2005
Messages
4,489
Location
Orlando, FL

I don't think I could find the time to read all of those reviews. :shock:

Still, some of Enterprise I liked, some I didn't As a whole, though, I liked it better than Voyager, but still below TOS, TNG and DS9.
 

moonmaster

Without him, all of you would be lost souls roamin
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
13,670
I hate Star Trek.

And once again, Star Wars is overrated.

THAT IS ALL
 

ourchair

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
13,105
Location
Philippines
Ronald Moore's complaints are part of a really long multi-part interview. Unfortunately, the original site holding it doesn't and has never organized the parts properly, so I'll just post the most pertinent Trek remarks from a Word file here.
Ronald D. Moore said:
"VOYAGER doesn't really believe in anything. The show doesn't have a point of view that I can discern. It doesn't have anything really to say. I truly believe it simply is just wandering around the galaxy. It doesn't even really believe in its own central premise, which is to me its greatest flaw.

I've said this to Brannon for years, because he and I would talk about the show when it was first invented. I just don't understand why it doesn't even believe in itself.

Examine the fundamental premise of VOYAGER. A starship chases a bunch of renegades. Both ships are flung to the opposite side of the galaxy. The renegades are forced to come aboard Voyager. They all have to live together on their way home, which is going to take a century or whatever they set up in the beginning.

I thought, This is a good premise. That's interesting. Get them away from all the familiar STAR TREK aliens, throw them out into a whole new section of space where anything can happen. Lots of situations for conflict among the crew. The premise has a lot of possibilities.

Before it aired, I was at a convention in Pasadena, and [scenic illustrator, technical consultant Rick] Sternbach and [scenic art supervisor, technical consultant Michael] Okuda were on stage, and they were answering questions from the audience about the new ship. It was all very technical, and they were talking about the fact that in the premise this ship was going to have problems.

It wasn't going to have unlimited sources of energy. It wasn't going to have all the doodads of the Enterprise. It was going to be rougher, fending for themselves more, having to trade to get supplies that they want. That didn't happen. It doesn't happen at all, and it's a lie to the audience.

I think the audience intuitively knows when something is true and something is not true. VOYAGER is not true. If it were true, the ship would not look spick-and-span every week, after all these battles it goes through. How many times has the bridge been destroyed? How many shuttlecrafts have vanished, and another one just comes out of the oven?

That kind of bull****ting the audience I think takes its toll. At some point the audience stops taking it seriously, because they know that this is not really the way this would happen. These people wouldn't act like this.

More comments later.
 

moonmaster

Without him, all of you would be lost souls roamin
Joined
Feb 23, 2005
Messages
13,670
I feel much of that can be applied to the new BATTLESTAR GALACTICA.
By that, do you mean that BSG is similar or different?

Because I was thinking as I read that that BSG is the complete opposite. They were always running out of food and water in the first season, there's always stuff that needs to be repaired or a lack of something, the ship always looks dirty and dingy, and every week, its exterior gets ****tier and ****tier looking.
 

ourchair

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
13,105
Location
Philippines
By that, do you mean that BSG is similar or different?

Because I was thinking as I read that that BSG is the complete opposite. They were always running out of food and water in the first season, there's always stuff that needs to be repaired or a lack of something, the ship always looks dirty and dingy, and every week, its exterior gets ****tier and ****tier looking.
I get the feeling Bass is implying the opposite. Having not seen much past the second season, I think Galactica started off "believing in its own premise" but progressively stopped doing so once the writers realized they didn't know what they really wanted to do.

Otherwise, it still does many things far better than Voyager ever did.
 

Bass

Nexus of the World
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
14,167
Location
Folkestone, UK
By that, do you mean that BSG is similar or different?

Because I was thinking as I read that that BSG is the complete opposite. They were always running out of food and water in the first season, there's always stuff that needs to be repaired or a lack of something, the ship always looks dirty and dingy, and every week, its exterior gets ****tier and ****tier looking.

I get the feeling Bass is implying the opposite. Having not seen much past the second season, I think Galactica started off "believing in its own premise" but progressively stopped doing so once the writers realized they didn't know what they really wanted to do.

Otherwise, it still does many things far better than Voyager ever did.

As Ourchair says.

In the first season, it really did all that **** - looking for water, unable to fix stuff, the fleet getting less and less (there was a BODY COUNT each week for christ's sake! How awesome was that? When the Pegasus showed up and the number INCREASED by over a thousand, it was ****ing awesome).

But that fell apart as they went for a bull**** "destiny" plot and decided to put more parallels to recent military turmoil in the Middle East. And it turned to rubbish. Season 1 had the least of this, with the biggest problem being Helo and Boomer (Helo kills her, no question - he doesn't ****ing marry her). Season 2 had an on-again off-again thing with it. And season 3 forgot to put anything good into it with the exception of the escape from New Caprica and the episode of the labour strike.

The show went from "We're going to die" every week to "We have a plan" and the writers (as D. Moore would say) didn't believe their own premise because they obviously do not have a plan, it's filled with so many ****ing holes.

And speaking of holes - having your CGI department remember that Galactica is ****ed and making the ship look battered each week only compounds the problem when the writers and set designers let the DRADIS look fine each week. When was the last time they ran out of ships? They TALK about problems but we never see those problems have any real effect anymore. At first, an entire episode was dedicated to finding water. Now, you'll here a mechanic go, "This ship's pretty beat up" and then Starbuck will fly it into a wing of raiders and kill them all and return and it'll be ready again next week.

So I guess I'm saying that Moore is a bit of a hypocrite - all the problems he was with Voyage exist in his own show.
 

Bass

Nexus of the World
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
14,167
Location
Folkestone, UK
Something odd - the first season of DS9, while a bit poo, did something ENTERPRISE, VOYAGER, and GALACTICA all claim to do - to point out just how difficult the space travel is. Half the season's stories seem to come from Chief O'Brien desperately trying to make the damn station work.
 

Gothamite

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
3,260
Location
Dublin, Ireland
I've seen that site before. Nothing special.

I finally realise what Ourchair was talking about when he told me to ask Ronald D. Moore why Voyager sucks. Now, I know and I am forever grateful to the man who's chair is ours. ;)
 

ourchair

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 16, 2005
Messages
13,105
Location
Philippines
Ronald D. Moore on where Voyager should have gone:
Ronald D. Moore said:
"By the end of the pilot, you have the Maquis in those Starfleet uniforms, and boom we've begun the grand homogenization. Now they are any other ship. I don't know what the difference is between Voyager and the Defiant or the Saratoga or the Enterprise or any other ship sitting around the Alpha Quadrant doing its Starfleet gig. That to me is appalling, because if anything, Voyager coming home, over this journey, with that crew by the time they got back to Earth, they should be their own subculture. They should be so different from the people who left, that Starfleet won't even recognize them any more."

"What are the things that would truly come up on a ship lost like that? Wouldn't they have to start not only bending Starfleet protocols, but throwing some of them right out the window? If you think about it in somewhat realistic terms: you're on Voyager; you are on the other side of the galaxy; for all you know, it is really going to take another century to get home, and there is every chance that you are not going to make it, but maybe your children or grandchildren will. Are you really going let Captain Janeway [Kate Mulgrew] rule the ship for the next century. It seems like, in that kind of situation, the ship would eventually evolve its own sort of society. It would have to function in some way, other than just this military protocol that we repeat over and over again because it's the only thing we know."

"You've got the Maquis onboard. From the get-go they are supposed to be the anti-Starfleet people. They behave exactly like the Starfleet people with the occasional nod towards B'Elanna [Roxann Dawson] making a snide remark about Starfleet protocols, or Chakotay [Robert Beltran] getting a little quasi-spiritual. But in essence, they are no different than any other ship in the fleet. The episodes that you watch week after week are so easily translatable to NEXT GEN that it's almost a cookie-cutter kind of thing. It's a waste of the premise. That's not to say they don't have any good episodes. There are some good episodes in the mix, and I have seen a couple. The show can work."


"But VOYAGER doesn't go there. It just will not go there. You are trying to tell the audience on the one hand, 'We're so far from home, and it's going to take us so long, and we really wish we could get home. It's rough out here.' Janeway wrings her hands about all the things that she has sent the crew through. Then, it's off to the holodeck. You can't talk with any kind of a straight face about food rations and energy conservation, and having a real kitchen in the mess hall, when at the same time you've got the holodeck going. It's such a facade, and no matter what kind of technobabble bull**** you come up with, the audience intuitively knows, again, that's not truthful. There is no reality there. That would not happen. Even on GILLIGAN'S ISLAND, they didn't have the Skipper and Gilligan sitting in the Minnow, watching color television."

"But on VOYAGER, who cares? We want the holodeck to run so we can go do period pieces, and we can do dress up and we can do fun adventures on the holodeck, and we don't want to give that up. Okay, but don't try telling me at the same time that you are really out scraping by and barely making it out there on the frontier, when none of their hair is out of place, and their uniforms are pristine, and the bridge is clean every week.'"

"What is the difference really between Voyager and the rest of the fleet? When that ship comes home, it will blend right in. You won't even know the difference. They haven't personalized the ship in any way. It's still the same kind of bare metal, military look that it had at the beginning. If you were trapped on that ship and making your way home, for years on end, wouldn't you put something up on the walls? Would you put a plant or two somewhere in a corridor? Wouldn't you try to make it a little more livable? That is the challenge that I think they have really dropped. They just won't deal with the reality of the situation that ship is in."

"If you can't believe in your own premise, you then certainly can't take the next step and try to have a point of view about life, about what it means to be human: what is the nature of the human heart, and good and evil, all of the great questions that STAR TREK is famous for trying to grapple with in a science fiction context. When VOYAGER tries to go there it is so completely superficial that it doesn't mean anything. Even when they are trying to really mine something, it's undercut by the fact that nothing else surrounding it is real, and that you can't accept these people in the positions and what they are doing."

"Kirk and company had a point of view. Kirk was a man of opinions. He was a man who had his own take on right versus wrong, when to take action, and when not to. I think he is respected for that. People that looked up to that character, looked up to him because he was a leader who said, 'We are going this way, and this is the right thing to do.' Picard is a different kind of leader. Picard was a more thoughtful guy who saw there was a little more gray in the world, but still had a very high sense of ethics, such a high sense of ethics that I think it bound us a little too much; it bound the character a little too tightly. Sisko [Avery Brooks] was a man who saw the world in shades of gray, who was always thrust into ambiguous situations, who was always having to grapple with questions of faith and reason and right and wrong, and had to do it in an interesting in compelling way. The people around him supported that premise. They were all flawed characters on a flawed station dealing with a flawed situation. It gave them permission to explore that ground."

"[But] I don't know what VOYAGER is about. It just doesn't seem to speak to me. I watch the show; I try to understand what it is saying to me, what it's trying to explore. But it doesn't seem to explore the human condition. It doesn't have a point of view on the subject. It falls back on STAR TREK boilerplate; it falls back on the Prime Directive. The Prime Directive has now become this cop out for doing anything in an episode, for having any point of view."
 

Gothamite

Well-Known Member
Joined
Apr 30, 2007
Messages
3,260
Location
Dublin, Ireland
It makes me a little bit sick that the only Star Trek incarnation that gets any respect amongst my circle of friends is Voyager.
 

Bass

Nexus of the World
Joined
Feb 22, 2005
Messages
14,167
Location
Folkestone, UK
You should be able to tell which season of Voyager you're watching just by the damage on the exterior of the ship.
 

Latest posts

Top