Getting Something Off My Man-Chest

Bass

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I hated the first six issues of Ultimate Fantastic Four. Compare the first UFF arc with the first arc of USM, UXM or Ultimates - it just doesn't even BEGIN to hold-up. And it seems because Bendis and Millar didn't have enough time to do it. Which is disappointing.

One thing, in particular, that annoys me is the whole Water, Air, Fire, Earth, thing. It's just nonsense. It's nice that they tried to do it, along with Doom as metal - but what about Wood? That's as much an element as metal. And sadly, only Doom, Thing and Torch fit the profile. Sue ISN'T like Air. First of all, she can't fly, she can't walk through walls, our breeze past things. She's completely solid, just invisible. Air isn't solid. Reed isn't like water. He's like rubber, or plasticine. He stretches, flexes, bounces - water has none of these properties. It flows.

It just doesn't work.

That said, I love Ellis' runs. Doom was wonderfully exciting, and I still keep saying to myself, "Where's the jerk in the blanket who shot me in the butt?" "Here, shooting you in the chest." Hahahahaha. In fact, I'm going to make it my signature.

Also, the N-Zone? The 3-part where they finally get into the N-Zone and the issue ends with Annihilus' face... that episode was more like Star Trek than Star Trek. I read it several times because I loved the feeling of wonder and sheer unknown territory that the issue had.

So, I'm happy with Ultimate Fantastic Four.

I think, I've said my piece on all the main Ultimate titles, and so, now I can go to normal, smaller posts. Hopefully, I ain't cluttering up the boards too much with my inane gibber.
 

Ice

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Ok, I'll explain Reed because I can.


He IS like water. Why? Because water can flow in different shapes, and takes whatever form its "container" is. What can Reed do? His body can 'flow' in different shapes and can take any shape, him being the 'container'.
 

Bass

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I get the idea - but then, he's not water. He's a gel.

I know he's supposed to be water, but I don't think it works because (warning! PUN) - it's a bit of a stretch.
 

Ice

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Bass said:
I get the idea - but then, he's not water. He's a gel.

I know he's supposed to be water, but I don't think it works because (warning! PUN) - it's a bit of a stretch.
But he has that "connection" to water, so that's why its said he's like water.
 

Bass

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Yeah - but I just think that they're trying to squeeze Reed into fitting the elements metaphor, when it doesn't really apply. It applies to three of the five, but then that means that the metaphor is flawed. Instead of coming up with something that works for all five, they say it works for all five, when it doesn't. It just annoys me a bit, is all.

See, I have no friends who read comics like I do, so all my opinions have been bottled up in me for YEARS. Now I have this place to vent, so I'm going to waffle on, talk gibberish and sound VERY opinionated until I get used to there being other points of view. So bear with me. :)
 

Guijllons

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Using the old scientific attributes (as we know), there were 4 elements to build up everything. Doom is not part of those four. He is part of one of the first recognised 'real' subgroups of atoms, the metals. A little bit more advanced. If we can take the development a little further, and look into how they took these forms, we would have to take into consideration human consciousness, and the old age perceptions. Now, since we know that Doom has a lot of connections to the past and his particular history, it's easily surmisable that he would be conscious (not just aware) of the scientific backgrounds of science itself. this would suggest that the 4 being a more primitive scientific ideal than himself, who was a real element group. Thus acknowledging the simplicity that Doom saw in the theories of reed on that subconscious level.
If you think I'm reaching here, you're not the only one. But, it's logical from a certain perspective.
And furthermore, i thought the FF series to date, from issue one has been second only to the Ultimates, and far better than the UXM opening arc, which i admit to finding a little disappointing (luckily I was proved otherwise)
 

E

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Nice way of putting it Guij.

They aren't meant to be literal translations - I mean, if you want to take it that far, Johnny's not REALLY made of fire. They are just representations. Remember how they said Sue vanished into thin air...

And I'm pretty sure the connection to the 4 elements was made long ago to the original FF by Lee and Kirby.
 

Ice

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UltimateE said:
And I'm pretty sure the connection to the 4 elements was made long ago to the original FF by Lee and Kirby.
Yes, they were, cuz I read the same thing. And also, I believe it was also in the X-MEN/F4 crossover currently going on, that Reed mentions it.
 

DigiEmissary

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The elements thing was definitely not the invention of Bendis or Millar. It played a major part in Heroes Reborn FF and is mentioned from time to time in the MU book.
 

Bass

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I didn't know that Bendis and Millar weren't the ones who came up with the elements metaphor. My mistake, thanks for pointing it out.

Chinese medicine believes that the body is made of 5 elements - Metal, Fire, Earth, Water, and Wood. Not Wind (or rather, Air), and so Metal makes sense.

My point is not that the concept of linking the F4 to the four elements is a bad idea, nor that it must be literal (i.e. Reed should be like Morrison's Ultramarine Flow, or what-have-you), but rather that metaphor should be appropriate. I do not think that Reed or Sue's powers are representations of their respective elements. I get that they are SUPPOSED to be, but I do not think that they succeed.
 

Guijllons

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Given that there is no logical reason for them to have those attributes, they can only come from the aspect of perception. So logic kinda gets convoluted very early on in that argument.
 

DIrishB

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You are all just obstacles on my path to Nirvana.
Just to cover the one element that seems to be missing...wood. Well, remember Man-Thing showing up in that 2 panel page where it shows Reed, Sue, Johnny, Ben, and Victor changing into their post N-zone selves? (Not sure which issue this was in, but if I'm not mistaken it was #7. Man-Thing was in this panel for a still unexplained reason. This was his only appearance in the Ultimate Universe except for UMTU #10, but that issue alone proves he exists in this universe. He's more plant/swamp-matter type material than wood, but its close enough. Just a theory.
 

DIrishB

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You are all just obstacles on my path to Nirvana.
By the way Guijllons, are you a member of MENSA by any chance? I only ask because in reading several of your posts, I notice you seem to have a vast knowledge of various subjects. Keep it up, I seem to learn something from almost all of your posts.
 

Bass

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Nice catch on the Man-thing Irish. Maybe you're right.

Also, Guijllons talks about a lot of subjects, but he's always wrong. :wink:
 

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