selfishmisery
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Marvel Cinematic Universe - Timeline (continued)
- Thread starter Lebnyx
- Start date
Pro Bot
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I think he's saying that Runaways and other MCU items have unrelated time travel to what's going on in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D..
selfishmisery
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But how does Endgame and SHIELD's means of timeline
only create branches
What's the meaning behind those differences? Do the Gibborim have uber knowledge of time travel compared to the creator of the Monoliths?
I know it was Chase Stein and his dad that used time travel but they got the knowledge from the Gibborims...
Pro Bot
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Different time travel from different methods.
Quantum Realm
Monolith
Runaways Time Machine
selfishmisery
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Obviously. But HOW?
Two of them create branches, one affects time directly. Why does one work one way but the other two don't have the same outcome?
Let's be honest. The writers broke that "ripple/waves" rule because they wrote themselves into a corner with
Daisy/Quake's mom dying but not wanting to get rid of Daisy as a result.
Pro Bot
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Isn't this the same situation as Deke? He exists, yet his original timeline isn't the history he now follows. Pahaps Daisy simply exists regardless.
Actually, believe it or not, there is enough wiggle room for Chase's time machine to be creating branches as well, I have been reading comics and there is an answer as for why dematerialization (Chase and the rest) could happen without rewriting the timeline, because they are not rewriting if we use the main Marvel Comics (and MCU) rules, which have to do with the branching.
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Slyonic
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"Temporal manipulations can create branches in time. Unstable dimensional openings. Spatial paradoxes! Time loops! You wanna get stuck reliving the same moment over and over forever or never having existed at all?"
That's what Mordo says in Dr. Strange. Timetravel just has different ways of manipulating the timeline.
Now, I tried to read up on Chase Stein's Timemachine, and I'm not savvy enough to explain how it works. I can, however, point out that in the Timestorm episode of AoS, Deke mentions something about being reduced to the size of an atom. Sound familiar? I think the Monolith time travel method also leads to the Quantum Realm, which we know leads to branched timelines.
Now, I do want to say the Zephyr Timetravel is different from the White Monolith timetravel in season 5, because the latter absorbs the traveller, while the former just uses a piece. Whether this has any impact, I don't know, but I thought it might be worth mentioning for further discussion.
Could you elaborate on that?
^I will elaborate on that completely when I finish my blog. But well I can take some time hehe, while the characters' phrasing allude to rewriting, it doesn't make sense in Runaways.
*Chase's Time Machine works creating closed timelike curves, which would be the real life result of an equation that would make time travel possible. A closed timelike curve is based on how strong gravitational fields would create a "black hole" in the space-time continuum, which would force the past to meet the future. You would create donut shaped vacuum and each turn you make within it would take further into the past. That is why Alex had nauseas.
*Now, the thing with a CTCs is that by using it you would return to exact same point you exited from. So if I create a CTC in 2028 to go to 2021 when I return I would return to my 2028. Real life physicists say that to explain a CTC existence and how time cannot be rewritten you would have to come up with the predestination paradox. So the time-traveller was always part of the past and you can't rewrite anything.
*Stephen Hawking thus proposed his chronology protection conjecture, he says time is relative, and therefore if you manage to time travel your actions would be meaningless on a universal scale and you won't be rewriting because it is impossible and all the changes you could have made in the past are already "done". You can't kill Hitler before 1945, because we know Hitler died in 1945, and therefore you won't change anything. Chase can't save Gert in 2018, because she died in 2018, his 2018 at least.
*That is why the CTCs allign with David Deustch's proposition of multi-world (yes, Deustch is the one mentioned by Iron Man in Endgame). So if you use a CTC to go to the past to kill Hitler as a baby, and if you kill him then you would be doing it in an alternate universe, not the one you came from because from where you came Hitler died in 1945.
*There is a CTC interpretation that if you kill Hitler in 1945 you would have created a new timeline, but when yo go to your present, you would realize you didn't change your history. The Avengers explore this concept, but they do not use a CTC they use the Quantum Realm, which instead of making past and the future meet, it just take you out of your universe from a certain time period, and reenters you in your universe in a new given date.
In the MCU predestination paradox and branching happen when you deal with time travel. I am just explaining Runaways here.
*If they were rewriting, then Alex (2028) would have ceased to exist if he had killed the Runaways in 2021. Because if he had killed the Runaways in 2021 then the reasons of why he decided to kill the team in the past would non exist. Let me explain this better.
**A member of the Runaways tries to kill Alex, the member fails and Alex in 2028 decides to kill them all because he does not know the member.
**However, if Alex 2028 killed all the Runaways members in 2021 he would have erased himself from existence, because if that Runaways member died, then that member would have never tried to kill Alex, and therefore none Alex 2028 would have traveled to the past. So, it is not rewriting.
*Alex is just trying to kill them in out of despise. It is similar to what the Chronicoms believed they were doing, but they were just creating an alternate universe with no Runaways in and no S.H.I.E.L.D. respectively.
*When they go in time to 2017 the day before the pilot, we see that Gert Yorkes reacts abruptly to Chase Stein, she doesn't like to be around him, but when Chase 2028 says nice things about her (remember the Pirates of Penance play, I think that is the name), this greatly affected her and she started to see him differently as her crush. And that is why the next day, Gert has feeling about him and feels disappointed when he does not attend the meeting at the coffe house. Chase 2028 is the reason why Gert 2017 fell deeply in love with Chase 2017.
*This is confirmed when the team then time-travels to 2018, because Gert 2018 identifies Chase 2028 as "Pirates of Penance". The reason of why 2021 Runaways, and 2028 Alex and Chase disappear is related to the act of saving Gert Yorkes. However, they are not rewriting.
*Alex and Chase created a 2021 reality when they went to the past. The team did not create a new timeline in 2017 (ripples) but they did in 2018 with the actions they made. In the comics, in Uncanny Inhumans Vol 1 Issue 2-4 we see how Kang time travels to the past and starts to change the Inhumans history, which results in Gorgon and other Inhumans disappearing in the present day, and Beast says something key: "they are being erased because they do not belong in this new history".
The Time Stone controls and represents the escense of time, and thus it describes what are the multiple consequences of manipulating it.
*So by using a CTCs you would get erased from existence (or just abruptly taken out) if you jump to a timeline you cannot exist in. (Mordo warns temporal manipulation can erase yourself from existence).
*By using the Quantum Realm if you do not take special care, you would have time going through you and deaging you or further aging you (this is what the Time Stone also describes, remember the apple and Hong Kong)
*By using the White Monolith properties, if you don't control it properly you would be stuck reliving the same events over and over again (a loop) this is just again what Mordo warns Strange about messing with time.
In the MCU, you have predestination paradox if you do not change the course of history RIPPLES (Wilfred delivering the serum, Barton in 2018, Sousa not dying in 1955, and the Runaways 2021 always being part of 2017), but you would create branched off timelines if you alter the course of history (Luke deciding to stay in 1955 and protect Malick's survival, Coulson slipping in the serum, the Avengers 2023 arriving in 2012, the Runaways saving Gert Yorkes)
*Chase's Time Machine works creating closed timelike curves, which would be the real life result of an equation that would make time travel possible. A closed timelike curve is based on how strong gravitational fields would create a "black hole" in the space-time continuum, which would force the past to meet the future. You would create donut shaped vacuum and each turn you make within it would take further into the past. That is why Alex had nauseas.
*Now, the thing with a CTCs is that by using it you would return to exact same point you exited from. So if I create a CTC in 2028 to go to 2021 when I return I would return to my 2028. Real life physicists say that to explain a CTC existence and how time cannot be rewritten you would have to come up with the predestination paradox. So the time-traveller was always part of the past and you can't rewrite anything.
*Stephen Hawking thus proposed his chronology protection conjecture, he says time is relative, and therefore if you manage to time travel your actions would be meaningless on a universal scale and you won't be rewriting because it is impossible and all the changes you could have made in the past are already "done". You can't kill Hitler before 1945, because we know Hitler died in 1945, and therefore you won't change anything. Chase can't save Gert in 2018, because she died in 2018, his 2018 at least.
*That is why the CTCs allign with David Deustch's proposition of multi-world (yes, Deustch is the one mentioned by Iron Man in Endgame). So if you use a CTC to go to the past to kill Hitler as a baby, and if you kill him then you would be doing it in an alternate universe, not the one you came from because from where you came Hitler died in 1945.
*There is a CTC interpretation that if you kill Hitler in 1945 you would have created a new timeline, but when yo go to your present, you would realize you didn't change your history. The Avengers explore this concept, but they do not use a CTC they use the Quantum Realm, which instead of making past and the future meet, it just take you out of your universe from a certain time period, and reenters you in your universe in a new given date.
In the MCU predestination paradox and branching happen when you deal with time travel. I am just explaining Runaways here.
*If they were rewriting, then Alex (2028) would have ceased to exist if he had killed the Runaways in 2021. Because if he had killed the Runaways in 2021 then the reasons of why he decided to kill the team in the past would non exist. Let me explain this better.
**A member of the Runaways tries to kill Alex, the member fails and Alex in 2028 decides to kill them all because he does not know the member.
**However, if Alex 2028 killed all the Runaways members in 2021 he would have erased himself from existence, because if that Runaways member died, then that member would have never tried to kill Alex, and therefore none Alex 2028 would have traveled to the past. So, it is not rewriting.
*Alex is just trying to kill them in out of despise. It is similar to what the Chronicoms believed they were doing, but they were just creating an alternate universe with no Runaways in and no S.H.I.E.L.D. respectively.
*When they go in time to 2017 the day before the pilot, we see that Gert Yorkes reacts abruptly to Chase Stein, she doesn't like to be around him, but when Chase 2028 says nice things about her (remember the Pirates of Penance play, I think that is the name), this greatly affected her and she started to see him differently as her crush. And that is why the next day, Gert has feeling about him and feels disappointed when he does not attend the meeting at the coffe house. Chase 2028 is the reason why Gert 2017 fell deeply in love with Chase 2017.
*This is confirmed when the team then time-travels to 2018, because Gert 2018 identifies Chase 2028 as "Pirates of Penance". The reason of why 2021 Runaways, and 2028 Alex and Chase disappear is related to the act of saving Gert Yorkes. However, they are not rewriting.
*Alex and Chase created a 2021 reality when they went to the past. The team did not create a new timeline in 2017 (ripples) but they did in 2018 with the actions they made. In the comics, in Uncanny Inhumans Vol 1 Issue 2-4 we see how Kang time travels to the past and starts to change the Inhumans history, which results in Gorgon and other Inhumans disappearing in the present day, and Beast says something key: "they are being erased because they do not belong in this new history".
The Time Stone controls and represents the escense of time, and thus it describes what are the multiple consequences of manipulating it.
*So by using a CTCs you would get erased from existence (or just abruptly taken out) if you jump to a timeline you cannot exist in. (Mordo warns temporal manipulation can erase yourself from existence).
*By using the Quantum Realm if you do not take special care, you would have time going through you and deaging you or further aging you (this is what the Time Stone also describes, remember the apple and Hong Kong)
*By using the White Monolith properties, if you don't control it properly you would be stuck reliving the same events over and over again (a loop) this is just again what Mordo warns Strange about messing with time.
In the MCU, you have predestination paradox if you do not change the course of history RIPPLES (Wilfred delivering the serum, Barton in 2018, Sousa not dying in 1955, and the Runaways 2021 always being part of 2017), but you would create branched off timelines if you alter the course of history (Luke deciding to stay in 1955 and protect Malick's survival, Coulson slipping in the serum, the Avengers 2023 arriving in 2012, the Runaways saving Gert Yorkes)
selfishmisery
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^ I'm kinda open to this idea of the White Monolith tapping into the Quantum Realm for it's time travel use. (Especially since they were manmade by an alien.)
I guess...Gibborim's do have more knowledge and a different method of time travel that affects time and reality like you're suggesting A13G10..
EDIT: Ah okay, I see in the Runaways finale they did mention the "closed timelike curve" as the method they used. I guess that makes it different than the Monolith and Quantum Realm methods.
_Decipherer_
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I appreciate your effort in writing such a long message, but I have 1 big question.
The question I have is that in here:
You said that the Chronicoms are just creating an alternate universe with no S.H.I.E.L.D., then what is the point of the agents chasing the Chronicoms if the timeline they exist in would never change. That is actually a really big plot hole of the show and I hope they have a good reason as to why they decided to chase the Chronicoms, since Fitz and Simmons are the most intelligent members of the team and they had "plenty of time (enough time to figure out time travel)" as Simmons and Enoch stated, so it would be impossible for them to not notice it.
But there are points I do agree (and want to simplify):
In the condition when something is altered in the past (waves, not ripples are created):
CTC (Runaways Time Travel) will make people who shouldn't exist in that alternate timeline disappear and sents you back to the original time (meaning it forces you to stay in the original timeline)
While the others (White Monolith/Zephyr One and Quantum Realm) lets any person in an alternate timeline which they do exist in to stay there no matter how long
In both cases, an alternate timeline must be created
(The part about sending a person back to an original timeline is just my interpretation of A13G10 saying that CTC requires a person to go back to the point where they exited)
EDIT: "People who shouldn't exist" to me is honestly just everyone who time travelled
EDIT2: After rereading, I realised I wasn't really opposing the theory, rather I've just pointed out something wrong with the show.
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Slyonic
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I believe the agents aren't aware they have been creating a branched timeline. I think this will be explored in the next episode. Right now, they think any 'wave' will change their timeline. Mack, for example, wants to thread carefully, because he is afraid Daisy could be erased from the timeline. However, we now know this doesn't happen.
We as viewers know of the branched timeline theory, but the agents haven't thought of that yet.
I imagine if we hadn't seen Endgame yet, we'd be just as surprised Daisy was still alive.
_Decipherer_
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Well, I guess it really comes down to how the time drive really works,
I hope that have a really good reason to explain this.
like whether Fitz really was controlling the time drive to follow the Chronicoms. I'm saying this because if Fitz can control it, why could they not test whether the time drive creates branch timelines.
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Slyonic
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They haven't had the time to test anything, plus Fitz can't communicate with the team.
Answering to the _Dechiperer_.
The next promo for episode 11, Kora says: "this universe" when talking about ther story. S.H.I.E.L.D. has always dealt with branched timeline. In Season 5 Episode 19, Deke says it out loud:
Deke: But not according to the multiverse theory."
Fitz: "Hmm, I'm not sure you actually know what "multiverse" means."
Deke: "That every choice we make spins out a different timeline into the cosmos, and right now, there are infinite parallel universes. But I am proof that you can move between them."
Fitz: "Or, you are proof that we are in one timeline, in a loop an infinite, intractable, unchangeable loop."
Simmons: "But, if we succeed in riding the planet of gravitonium, then we break that loop and prevent the Earth's destruction."
Deke: "Which is great, because that definitely won't affect me at all. Look, it's not like I'm just gonna blink out of existence. I lived in one timeline, but now I live in this new one, and I think I'm gonna stay in the one with the sun and tacos and all that, because that's the multiverse, that's science.
The show has always dealt with the Multiverse theory, now the same, the show is dealing with the Multiverse. Why did they chase the Chronicoms? Fitz-Simmons know/knew something, they knew probably they had to protect a timeline created for Humans to suffer. So they just wanted to prevent the Chronicoms. Mark Kolpack (VFX team) also hinted they are not rewriting. And they didn't figure out Time Travel, they figured out how to track the Chronicoms.
The next promo for episode 11, Kora says: "this universe" when talking about ther story. S.H.I.E.L.D. has always dealt with branched timeline. In Season 5 Episode 19, Deke says it out loud:
Deke: But not according to the multiverse theory."
Fitz: "Hmm, I'm not sure you actually know what "multiverse" means."
Deke: "That every choice we make spins out a different timeline into the cosmos, and right now, there are infinite parallel universes. But I am proof that you can move between them."
Fitz: "Or, you are proof that we are in one timeline, in a loop an infinite, intractable, unchangeable loop."
Simmons: "But, if we succeed in riding the planet of gravitonium, then we break that loop and prevent the Earth's destruction."
Deke: "Which is great, because that definitely won't affect me at all. Look, it's not like I'm just gonna blink out of existence. I lived in one timeline, but now I live in this new one, and I think I'm gonna stay in the one with the sun and tacos and all that, because that's the multiverse, that's science.
The show has always dealt with the Multiverse theory, now the same, the show is dealing with the Multiverse. Why did they chase the Chronicoms? Fitz-Simmons know/knew something, they knew probably they had to protect a timeline created for Humans to suffer. So they just wanted to prevent the Chronicoms. Mark Kolpack (VFX team) also hinted they are not rewriting. And they didn't figure out Time Travel, they figured out how to track the Chronicoms.
Also, S.H.I.E.L.D. is following the Chronicoms to stop them from ruining other's people life, that is very heroic. And they have only created one timeline. When they were taken to 2091, their arrival did not create a new timeline, neither when they got back, when something was done different the timeline splits (Coulson's slipping the serum).
So, the team went back to 1931, and they ensured Wilfred's role in history, not only that but Ernest Koenig got interested in S.H.I.E.L.D. and due to that, the Koenigs were part of S.H.I.E.L.D. in the future, they are part of the main MCU timeline, then they go to 1955, the show plays with Sousa's death and the first scene we see is exactly the same scene we see later in the episode when Coulson shoots Sousa. Sousa never died, he was always saved in 1955 and taken away, however, the splits happens when Luke decides to stay and ensures Malick's survival. And then when the team goes further into the future they are not creating because they are moving forward in a new timeline.
Now, yeah, that rises a lot of questions, if Luke's decision to stay in the past, that means there is one Luke in the MCU that failed, and one Luke that successfully saved Malick. Now, a friend of mine told me that maybe the agents will go back to 1955 and kill Luke before he does anything, and that is the reason why the MCU timeline never changed, because there were always 2019 S.H.I.E.L.D. agents who stopped Luke in 1955, and when they go forward they will end up in the MCU present.
selfishmisery
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Then this whole season has been pointless...
Why? They are protecting a new timeline from suffering and falling into the Chronicoms' hands. That is heroic to me... The only time in the MCU we will see a rewriting is when Kang shows up, but not before.
Runaways and Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. deal with branchings.
selfishmisery
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Then stay in that new timeline and DON'T undo it. End the threat of Chronicoms, Malick and Garrett in 1983 and that becomes the MCU timeline.
If they are going to go back to 1955 afterwards anyway and kill Luke, then this storyline has been a complete waste. Stick with those consequences.
If they're not going to tie up other loose ends from the previous seasons, then most of the show is better off as an alternate timeline.
I know you and Pro Bot don't want that, but it's the only natural way storywise it can work without wasting our time.
