Questions/Remarks about New X-Men

Dr.Strangefate

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I just finished reading through the entire Grant Morrison run, and there are some things I noticed that i dont think I noticed the first time through...

1. Xorn was NEVER Magneto. Xorn was a highly powerful, very insane person, who inhaled so much "Kick" that he went insane. "Kick", we later learn, is the newest form of Sublime. Also in the Letters page in the back of pt. 2 or 3 of Here Comes Tomarrow, someone asked about why Xorn had the solo backstory issue, and it is alluded to that Xorn is not Magneto. Sublime used Xorn's body exactly like he used The Beast's in "Here Comes Tomorrow", except this time he wanted to get the Humans to wipe out the Mutants with the Neutron Bombs. Also notice how he was recycling Magneto's old plans, combined with Hitler's, just showing Sublime's real lack of the human emotion that Erik has which makes him the effective villian. I think people should get off Claremont's back, Morrison was the one to make it this complex, Claremont actually followed through on Morrison's story (It makes perfect sense that Mags would survive an attack from metal machines)

2. Quinten Quire will become the new Pheonix? In Pt.4 of Here Comes Tomorrow, a Quinten Quire in a Pheonix leotard talks to Jean in the far far future. Then keep in mind QQ has just popped up in Pheonix: Endsong.

3. So, what I got from HCT is that Ernst is in fact the Cassandra Nova that Xavier and Jean decided to reeducate. Is it just me or has she completely disapeared again from the X-comics? Where's Martha, for that case??

4. Can Someone explain to me how the Weapon Plus Program and Fantomex were wrapped up in Weapon X?? Specially now that we know that Sublime was behind it...

5. Does anyone else find it Amazing how Morrison created the current X-Men Universe? (because it's BS to say that 616 has one continuity, i dont remember Spidey minding Magneto rip apart Manhattan, or the FF for that matter). He created Cassandra Nova, Sublime, and Quinten Quire, some of the BEST new baddies in over a decade, and characters who will keep popping up over and over again, im sure. He left the Shi'ar Empire in shambles, with a mentally deranged Empress. He Made the X-Mansion a real school with many students. He brought back Emma Frost. He broke up Scott and Jean. He turned Beast into a Cat. He made the idea of the International X-Corps work. And biggest of all, he slaughtered 16 million mutants with the destruction of Genosha. This run of comics from 116(7?)-154 will be effecting the X-men for 10 years plus, and for that, i'm greatful.
 

Dr.Strangefate

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Yes, but I actually prefer Beast this way. It's far better suited for his personality. I could never take him seriously as a smart monkey, Cats are elegant.

Second Mutations dont bother me at all...
 

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Dr.Strangefate said:
1. Xorn was NEVER Magneto. Xorn was a highly powerful, very insane person, who inhaled so much "Kick" that he went insane.

You misunderstood that. Magneto WAS Xorn. Same guy, different costume. The "Magneto impersonator" crap and subsequent revelation that there may have been a real Xorn came AFTER Morrison's run.

Dr.Strangefate said:
Xorn had the solo backstory issue, and it is alluded to that Xorn is not Magneto.

Where was this alluded to - explain?

Dr.Strangefate said:
Sublime used Xorn's body exactly like he used The Beast's in "Here Comes Tomorrow"

Yes, except it was Magneto. And Hank McCoy had no part in what his body was doing, even subconsciously. Xorneto was aware what was going on, even if he didn't know that he wasn't in control of his actions.

Dr.Strangefate said:
I think people should get off Claremont's back, Morrison was the one to make it this complex, Claremont actually followed through on Morrison's story

Morrison's story was complex, but by #154, all questions were answered and all doors were closed. Claremont and Austen (likely at the urging and direction of their editors) opened things back up and screwed things up after everything had been taken care of.

Dr.Strangefate said:
Quinten Quire will become the new Pheonix? In Pt.4 of Here Comes Tomorrow, a Quinten Quire in a Pheonix leotard talks to Jean in the far far future. Then keep in mind QQ has just popped up in Pheonix: Endsong.

QQ being in the White Hot Room could lead one to deduce that he will become a Phoenix host at some point...whether that happens in Endsong though remains to be seen.

Dr.Strangefate said:
This run of comics from 116(7?)-154

Morrison started in #114.

TheManWithoutFear said:
I thought the Diamond thing was part of her first mutation.

I don't think so.
 

Caduceus

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Dr.Strangefate said:
2. Quinten Quire will become the new Pheonix? In Pt.4 of Here Comes Tomorrow, a Quinten Quire in a Pheonix leotard talks to Jean in the far far future. Then keep in mind QQ has just popped up in Pheonix: Endsong.


UltimateE said:
QQ being in the White Hot Room could lead one to deduce that he will become a Phoenix host at some point...whether that happens in Endsong though remains to be seen.

This is something that is so open to definition. Whoever is writing the story about the Phoenix Force, the Phoenix Force host, the potential Phoenix force hosts, whatever, has it pretty much up to their discretion what background for the force they will use. Morrison treated it as sort of a one-for-every-universe-in-the-multiverse thing that had a whole corp of people (think the Captain Britain corp but without the mysticism) who would disinfect the universe with their appropriate Phoenix force where necessary. Other writers have labelled it as one of a kind, one of a few, one of the prime forces of creation, whatever. So its confusing and complicated and Endsong is supposed to fix it but I'm not quite certain how it will do this.


Dr.Strangefate said:
3. So, what I got from HCT is that Ernst is in fact the Cassandra Nova that Xavier and Jean decided to reeducate. Is it just me or has she completely disapeared again from the X-comics? Where's Martha, for that case??

UltimateE said:
Morrison's story was complex, but by #154, all questions were answered and all doors were closed. Claremont and Austen (likely at the urging and direction of their editors) opened things back up and screwed things up after everything had been taken care of.


I wouldn't go so far as to say that all doors wer closed by any means. There was Cassandra Nova/Ernst, Martha who did actually sort of vanish to my knowledge, the Cuckoo's link with the Weapon Plus project and a few other things that I'm forgotten off the top of my head. Some things however were reopened and that was certainly an editorial policy.


Dr.Strangefate said:
4. Can Someone explain to me how the Weapon Plus Program and Fantomex were wrapped up in Weapon X?? Specially now that we know that Sublime was behind it...

I'll give it a serious go. Basically, you had the Weapon Plus program. This started out at a certain time (i don't have my comics so the dates and so on escape me) but it was a good 100+ years ago. A professor finds one of Sinister's labs in Nazi Germany and this leads to him founding the Weapon Plus program. Eventually, not that long after in fact, John Sublime becomes the director of Weapon Plus. Eventually, factions within the project disagree about whether the weapon they are creating should be a mutant or a bio-engineered creation. The bio-engineered creation group is the majority but the mutant section splits of and becomes Weapon X. Weapon X, you should probably know about. My memory is a little dodgy as to whether Wolverine was created before or after the split. I THINK it was before but I'm not certain so don't quote me. Anyway, Weapon Plus leads off into the developement of the World, the big dome in England (of course, were else do you hide a completely random giant white dome. No-one will ever know) The World is an artificial world. Time is controllable so the controllers can develope their breeding lines quickly and maintain complete control over the subjects and so on. The products of the world include Fantomex and EVA (aka Charlie Cluster 7 and Weapon XIII) and Weapon XII aka Zona Cluster 6. These two first showed up around issues 130 or so. Fantomex helped Jean, Xavier and X-corp deal with Weapon XII and escaped away. Later, in Assault on Weapon Plus, right at the end of the run, Fantomex reappers and enlists Wolverine and Cyclops to help him infiltrate the world and destroy Weapon XV. (Note the gap). They succeed and so on and you know what happens. The Weapon X (in the book) story outlines the relationship between the Weapon X and Weapon Plus programs (Weapon X is a breakaway fragment) and it reveals Sublime as the director of Weapon Plus. This leads into the story of Roanoke (I think) a town Wolverine destroyed as a test. Weapon Plus has a secret base here and Wolverine, Fantomex and Agent Zero (by then revealed as Maverick) follow the trail through various leads to find the base. They then fight off a huge hoard of U-men (Sublime's henchmen) and fly away on EVA. Sublime himself escapes but tells them that one of the 3 belongs to the Weapon Plus project body and soul. The issue then ends iwth a scene of a crashed EVA and Fantomex on the ground with 3 bloody clawmarks in his back. No other signs of Wolverine and none of Maverick. Then, before this fantastic cliffhanger could be explained, THE DAMN SERIES WAS CANCELLED!!!. Seriously. There was a filler arc about Sabretooth and they cancelled the frickin thing! AAARGH. Not happy.


Sorry that was really long winded but its a bit complicated.



Dr.Strangefate said:
5. Does anyone else find it Amazing how Morrison created the current X-Men Universe? (because it's BS to say that 616 has one continuity, i dont remember Spidey minding Magneto rip apart Manhattan, or the FF for that matter). He created Cassandra Nova, Sublime, and Quinten Quire, some of the BEST new baddies in over a decade, and characters who will keep popping up over and over again, im sure. He left the Shi'ar Empire in shambles, with a mentally deranged Empress. He Made the X-Mansion a real school with many students. He brought back Emma Frost. He broke up Scott and Jean. He turned Beast into a Cat. He made the idea of the International X-Corps work. And biggest of all, he slaughtered 16 million mutants with the destruction of Genosha. This run of comics from 116(7?)-154 will be effecting the X-men for 10 years plus, and for that, i'm greatful.

I do to. I think its one of the things thats making it a lot easier for newer writers like Whedon to start doing more innovative things. Morrison copped a LOT of fan flack abot his run but it was good and it did good things and it shook things up. When the last writer on the book blew up Genosha, you don't really have to worry about introducing a brand new government agency who can tell SHIELD to stick it and a whole new planet and race that will count for a few stories at least.

UltimateE said:
You misunderstood that. Magneto WAS Xorn. Same guy, different costume. The "Magneto impersonator" crap and subsequent revelation that there may have been a real Xorn came AFTER Morrison's run.

Basically, it was retconned that Magneto was really Xorneto. Then, there was the introduction of Xorn II


UltimateE said:
Where was this alluded to - explain?

I think he's referring to the postMorrison Xorneto-Xorn-Retconorama debacle thing that Marvel sort of had going.




This is quite possibly my longest post ever.




Edit* Oh and Emma Frost is originally a telepath. Straight out. The diamond skin came about as a result of her survival of the Sentinel attack on Genosha.
 
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Dr.Strangefate

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UltimateE said:
You misunderstood that. Magneto WAS Xorn. Same guy, different costume. The "Magneto impersonator" crap and subsequent revelation that there may have been a real Xorn came AFTER Morrison's run.



Where was this alluded to - explain?



Yes, except it was Magneto. And Hank McCoy had no part in what his body was doing, even subconsciously. Xorneto was aware what was going on, even if he didn't know that he wasn't in control of his actions.

You completely misunderstand what Im saying, I'm saying that the person who was Xorn was never, ever, Magneto. Someone was impersonating Xorn, but then he impersonated Magneto once Sublime took over. Also, how do you know that Xorneto is aware of what he's doing? During the story he shows little control, far more power and malcontent than Mags EVER had, and on top of everything he never said anything about himself to show he even had more than an outsider's view on Magneto's life. He started crematoriums, and when someone pointed out the connection to Hitler, it didnt bother him. He was in a Nazi Death camp as a kid, he's not going to just sit and let someone call him a new hitler. He is pro-mutant, not anti-human, his way of pro-mutantism is skewed, sure, but he was about to have another HUGE population of mutants, the largest in North America, wiped out with Neutron Bombs. This wasn't Magneto!!! Magneto has morals and class, and is more articulate than Xorneto Ever was. Whoever infiltrated Xaviers was addicted to Kick, and was influenced into taking on the form of Magneto by Sublime.

What I was saying was that in "X-Pressions", the Letter column, behind the issue pt. 2 or 3 of HCT, someone is very skeptical about Xorn being Magneto, and in response to that they say something along the lines of "With Morrison, nothing is what it seems." I think the revelation that Kick -was- Sublime proved that Xorneto was -not- Magneto. Morrison made that happen, not Claremont, and if that was supposed to be Magneto(which doesnt make sense, because marvel was hinting that it wasn't before the end of the arc, along with all of the clues), Morrison did a really really crappy job writing him. I don't believe that he meant it, because if anything, that storyarc proved how GOOD of a writer Morrison is.

I haven't seen anything to prove that Magneto was Xorneto, and I went into reading Morrison's run yesterday absolutely positive that he was, so Im not trying to prove a point. I just read it all at once and it just wasnt right, so I brought it up here. I dont see a palpable argument that Mags was Xorneto... I'm completely open to be wrong about this, i just need to see some evidence.
 

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Dr.Strangefate said:
You completely misunderstand what Im saying, I'm saying that the person who was Xorn was never, ever, Magneto. Someone was impersonating Xorn, but then he impersonated Magneto once Sublime took over.

I believe it has been stated that Morrison intended for it to be Magneto. If you read Planet X again, I don't think you'll see anything that actually tells you its not Magneto. There is no evidence to the contrary and it was Morrison's intent. Xorneto was the result of an editorial policy shortly after Morrison's run which meant that Magneto was not allowed to be dead. This was probably based on Avengers Dissassembled but....



Dr.Strangefate said:
Also, how do you know that Xorneto is aware of what he's doing? During the story he shows little control, far more power and malcontent than Mags EVER had, and on top of everything he never said anything about himself to show he even had more than an outsider's view on Magneto's life. He started crematoriums, and when someone pointed out the connection to Hitler, it didnt bother him. He was in a Nazi Death camp as a kid, he's not going to just sit and let someone call him a new hitler. He is pro-mutant, not anti-human, his way of pro-mutantism is skewed, sure, but he was about to have another HUGE population of mutants, the largest in North America, wiped out with Neutron Bombs. This wasn't Magneto!!! Magneto has morals and class, and is more articulate than Xorneto Ever was. Whoever infiltrated Xaviers was addicted to Kick, and was influenced into taking on the form of Magneto by Sublime.

Sublime, or Kick, whatever you with to call it changes the mind. Sublime was in control of Xorneto and Sublime has no issues with killing mutants, death camps or anything. As soon as he gets seriously hopped up, he might as well not be the same character anymore.

Dr.Strangefate said:
What I was saying was that in "X-Pressions", the Letter column, behind the issue pt. 2 or 3 of HCT, someone is very skeptical about Xorn being Magneto, and in response to that they say something along the lines of "With Morrison, nothing is what it seems." I think the revelation that Kick -was- Sublime proved that Xorneto was -not- Magneto. Morrison made that happen, not Claremont, and if that was supposed to be Magneto(which doesnt make sense, because marvel was hinting that it wasn't before the end of the arc, along with all of the clues), Morrison did a really really crappy job writing him. I don't believe that he meant it, because if anything, that storyarc proved how GOOD of a writer Morrison is.

Again, this can be explained pretty much the same was as above. Once he's hopped up, he's completely controlled by Sublime.

Dr.Strangefate said:
I haven't seen anything to prove that Magneto was Xorneto, and I went into reading Morrison's run yesterday absolutely positive that he was, so Im not trying to prove a point. I just read it all at once and it just wasnt right, so I brought it up here. I dont see a palpable argument that Mags was Xorneto... I'm completely open to be wrong about this, i just need to see some evidence.

Hope this helps resolve it.



Although, I must say, I am having a jolly good time with this argument (and it is an argument but its not a fight.) How English that sounded.
 

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Caduceus said:
I wouldn't go so far as to say that all doors wer closed by any means. There was Cassandra Nova/Ernst, Martha who did actually sort of vanish to my knowledge, the Cuckoo's link with the Weapon Plus project and a few other things that I'm forgotten off the top of my head. Some things however were reopened and that was certainly an editorial policy.

When I say all the doors were closed and all the loose ends were tied up, I mean as they related to the story. Cassandra Nova vanished for 150 or so years and came back, but there was never a question after it was all said and done as to who she was or what she did.

Dr.Strangefate said:
You completely misunderstand what Im saying, I'm saying that the person who was Xorn was never, ever, Magneto. Someone was impersonating Xorn, but then he impersonated Magneto once Sublime took over.

Magneto, under the influence of Kick (which was Sublime), impersonated Xorn. He infiltrated the X-Mansion, set up his army, revealed himself, killed Jean, and was killed by Wolverine. The Xorn that appeared in New X-Men was definitely Magneto in disguise; no question, no grey area. Later writers retconned that, but at the time it was written, that was the story.

Dr.Strangefate said:
Also, how do you know that Xorneto is aware of what he's doing? During the story he shows little control, far more power and malcontent than Mags EVER had

Very true, and that very well may be the case. The way I understood it though, Sublime just made a bad man worse, while with Beast it totally took him over and changed his personality.

Dr.Strangefate said:
This wasn't Magneto!!! Magneto has morals and class, and is more articulate than Xorneto Ever was. Whoever infiltrated Xaviers was addicted to Kick, and was influenced into taking on the form of Magneto by Sublime.

I think I see where you're going with what I'm seeing as a misunderstanding of what happened. It wasn't the Magneto YOU know/knew, and his mind was at the very least under control. But It WAS Magneto, just like the Beast 150 years later was the same Beast. Using your arguement, you'd have to also say that that Beast in Here Comes Tomorrow wasn't Hank, and it was - even if it wasn't Hank's actions or thoughts.

Dr.Strangefate said:
What I was saying was that in "X-Pressions", the Letter column, behind the issue pt. 2 or 3 of HCT, someone is very skeptical about Xorn being Magneto, and in response to that they say something along the lines of "With Morrison, nothing is what it seems."

It wasn't, on many levels, but I think you're misapplying it...

Dr.Strangefate said:
I think the revelation that Kick -was- Sublime proved that Xorneto was -not- Magneto.

Like right there...

Dr.Strangefate said:
Morrison made that happen, not Claremont, and if that was supposed to be Magneto(which doesnt make sense, because marvel was hinting that it wasn't before the end of the arc, along with all of the clues), Morrison did a really really crappy job writing him. I don't believe that he meant it, because if anything, that storyarc proved how GOOD of a writer Morrison is.

OK, I'm understanding a little more where you're coming from. Your view of Morrison's Xorneto as being crappy writing is slightly skewed - it's not crappy writing, but you see it as that because that's not the Magneto you're used to. Got it. It's NOT the Magneto we're used to, but it is still Magneto.
 

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Caduceus said:
Xorneto was the result of an editorial policy shortly after Morrison's run which meant that Magneto was not allowed to be dead. This was probably based on Avengers Dissassembled but....

I think you have the right idea but backwards...I think it was the fan outcry of how bad a story it was and how poorly executed, and after Disassembled or while planning House of M, they saw a way to "fix" it properly. I can't give them credit of being that far-seeing without input from Bendis based on Disassembled/House of M.
 

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Well, what can I say? I would explain everything, but then I would just be repeating what E wrote, cuz he totally got it right.
 

Caduceus

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I just had a thought. (A startlingly rare occurence)

Magneto could be conviced of SVUI. Super-villain-ing under the influence.
 

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Caduceus said:
I just had a thought. (A startlingly rare occurence)

Magneto could be conviced of SVUI. Super-villain-ing under the influence.

And identity theft... :D
 

Dr.Strangefate

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Sorry, didn't mean to get all argumentative, okay, so Morrison meant it to be Magneto. I'll accept that, but I still don't like how he handled him, at all.

One of the best things about Lensherr was that he and Charles are best friends who want ultimately the same thing, they just have different views on how to do that.

I'm glad that they brought him back, because that would have been a horrible end to a fantastic character, Claremont is slowly getting back in the hang of writing, and I think Excalibur has the capabilities of being a really good book (especially with Angel and Scarlett Witch now popping in).

Back to the other points though... and i really want to emphasize how much of the rest of the Arc I absolutely love, but thanks for clearing up the Weapon X stuff, which is a -bit- overcomplicated, but thats how X-Men's mythos work, and im cool with that. The biggest thing I think he hinted at is Quinten Quire being a part of the Pheonix Force, what's everyone's thoughts on that?
 

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Dr.Strangefate said:
Sorry, didn't mean to get all argumentative, okay, so Morrison meant it to be Magneto. I'll accept that, but I still don't like how he handled him, at all.

No need to be sorry - good-natured debates are always nice. :D

It's good you don't like how he wrote them. You aren't supposed to like it. As you're reading along, you SHOULD be noticing that something was wrong with him. If he had been regular old Magneto the entire time, there's no way it could have worked.
 

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Dr.Strangefate said:
I'm glad that they brought him back, because that would have been a horrible end to a fantastic character, Claremont is slowly getting back in the hang of writing, and I think Excalibur has the capabilities of being a really good book (especially with Angel and Scarlett Witch now popping in).
I like that he's back too, as he has always been my favorite villain overall. But having him as a good guy now, cuz that's how he is right now, I DO NOT like that. :noway:


Oh, and Archangel isn't going to just "pop in". He's part of the cast of Excalibur, starting with next month's issue.


But anyway, getting back to the topic at hand, I agree with E. If it was actually Magneto, the story wouldn't have worked. But I think that Morrison did a great job on X-Men, since he had some of the greatest stories & ideas written, most especially with the idea of Xorn, and the story before his last.
 

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Dr.Strangefate said:
The biggest thing I think he hinted at is Quinten Quire being a part of the Pheonix Force, what's everyone's thoughts on that?

Personally QQ was one of my favourite new characters from Morrison's run. So I'm not to depressed with his return, especially as its an intruiging plot so far. But I'm not sure he's being made part of the Phoenix Force, more that, as an Omega level mutant with psi powers, he's a potential host. But personally, I'm treating the Phoenix Force as a cooler version of the Captain Britain Corps at the moment (one for every reality). The one in this reality uses Jean for a reason, could be she was available when it originally showed up, could be it needs her to get "human empathy and compassion" or something. Anyway. I think Quentin is just functioning as a temporary host but his secondary mutation was from memory, "to raise himself to a higher plane of consciousness". He did this but it left him the way he was at the start of Endsong. What if he ends up with the Phoenix again, for whatever reason, and then raises himself to his higher consciousness- taking the force with him. This is supposed to be the final Phoenix story after all.
 

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