The [irrational & annoying] price of comics.
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Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
*sigh*
These costs are increasing at a rate much higher than the rate of inflation.
And it's already been shown that when these drastic increases first came about in the very early 90s it had nothing to do with increased costs, and more to do with executives draining profit (and value) from Marvel then getting rid of them as junk.
Nowhere in this thread will you find anyone complaining that artists or writers should be making less or are demanding too much.
I don't believe (though I could be wrong) Marvel has ever said that the increases were because they have to pay the talent more. They have flat out said, more than once, that they are increasing prices as a duty to stockholders. In other words, because they think they can.
And now they are doing so while actually decreasing the amount of product they are selling.
I mean, I get that you're an artist and want to sympathize with them, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with that. Defending price increases by playing the sympathy card for creative talent when talking about Marvel, of all companies, is the most hilariously ironic.
And I think it's a pretty good guess that the increase in profits from these price increases, if any (long term) are not being passed on to the talent.
*sigh*
These costs are increasing at a rate much higher than the rate of inflation.
And it's already been shown that when these drastic increases first came about in the very early 90s it had nothing to do with increased costs, and more to do with executives draining profit (and value) from Marvel then getting rid of them as junk.
Nowhere in this thread will you find anyone complaining that artists or writers should be making less or are demanding too much.
I don't believe (though I could be wrong) Marvel has ever said that the increases were because they have to pay the talent more. They have flat out said, more than once, that they are increasing prices as a duty to stockholders. In other words, because they think they can.
And now they are doing so while actually decreasing the amount of product they are selling.
I mean, I get that you're an artist and want to sympathize with them, but this has nothing whatsoever to do with that. Defending price increases by playing the sympathy card for creative talent when talking about Marvel, of all companies, is the most hilariously ironic.
And I think it's a pretty good guess that the increase in profits from these price increases, if any (long term) are not being passed on to the talent.
Bass
Nexus of the World
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
It's definitely not going to the talent.
It's definitely not going to the talent.
Friday
Well-Known Member
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
Its not always even 20 pages for $3.99. Moon Knight #4 for example was 19 pages and cost $3.99. They're at the point that they charge what want instead of on a standardized price scale like the industry has used... well forever. Yes, the talent should be compensated and printing costs do rise but not at the level that the price of comics have. I mean do you remember when 52 was announced at $2.50 and people were *****ing? Do you know how many more comics I'd buy if they were all $2.50? That was only what, 6 years ago? And the increases haven't been change here and there. Marvel went from $2.99 straight to $3.99. A 1/3rd cost increase. When that happens anywhere else theres outrage. In comics its that sucks.
The whole industry needs to stop seeing itself as a boutique product, stop worrying about the comic stores and start taking steps to reach a wider audience. DC might not be the best company on the block but at least they look like they're trying. Marvel just wants more of our money. But just ours.
Its not always even 20 pages for $3.99. Moon Knight #4 for example was 19 pages and cost $3.99. They're at the point that they charge what want instead of on a standardized price scale like the industry has used... well forever. Yes, the talent should be compensated and printing costs do rise but not at the level that the price of comics have. I mean do you remember when 52 was announced at $2.50 and people were *****ing? Do you know how many more comics I'd buy if they were all $2.50? That was only what, 6 years ago? And the increases haven't been change here and there. Marvel went from $2.99 straight to $3.99. A 1/3rd cost increase. When that happens anywhere else theres outrage. In comics its that sucks.
The whole industry needs to stop seeing itself as a boutique product, stop worrying about the comic stores and start taking steps to reach a wider audience. DC might not be the best company on the block but at least they look like they're trying. Marvel just wants more of our money. But just ours.
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
If I were to self publish, it would cost me about $12 an issue, without paying myself.
Remember that neither DC nor Marvel do physical publishing or distribution in house anymore, the average cost, when you add in printing deals, talent costs, management costs, and distribution costs, you're looking at close to $3 per unit. Not even 100% of what's published is actually sold, so they have to somehow absorb those costs, then, they have to turn some semblance of a profit per issue.
I get the outrage of $3.99 for digital, but honestly, most companies (Dark Horse, Image, other small companies) take a loss per issue, and only make money via trade sales (where the mark up is around $5 per trade), licensing, and allowing for ads in the comics.
If I were to self publish, it would cost me about $12 an issue, without paying myself.
Remember that neither DC nor Marvel do physical publishing or distribution in house anymore, the average cost, when you add in printing deals, talent costs, management costs, and distribution costs, you're looking at close to $3 per unit. Not even 100% of what's published is actually sold, so they have to somehow absorb those costs, then, they have to turn some semblance of a profit per issue.
I get the outrage of $3.99 for digital, but honestly, most companies (Dark Horse, Image, other small companies) take a loss per issue, and only make money via trade sales (where the mark up is around $5 per trade), licensing, and allowing for ads in the comics.
Friday said:
Yes. Exactly. I don't believe anyone has even suggested that the talent didn't deserve to be compensated.
I would be interested to know if any of the mid-tier writers/artists (I.e. not big names like Bendis) have seen raises after these price increases.
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
The general starting wages for a journeyman artist (i'll use myself as an example) has seen an average per page pay increase from $75-90 to $100-125, in the last 10 years.
So me pencilling an X-23 book would be about $2000-2500 per issue.
If I were to do all parts of the art (example Daniel Acuña, Sana Takeda, Alex Ross, etc), I'd be paid significantly more.
The problem, there are less and less journeyman artists anymore. With artists being able to work well into their 70's - 80's (Jack Kirby, Moebius, Sal Buscema, etc), it's becoming more expensive to pay the talent. Someone like Terry Dodson, or JH Williams, will make in the $250 per page range. Then someone like Alex Ross, there's been rumors of upwards of $15,000 an issue.
Writers, I sadly don't have the access to like I do the artists of the field. I'd concede any info to James on that.
Aslo; like I said in my previous posts, there's a LOT more to printing costs than you guys seem to want to accept.
The general starting wages for a journeyman artist (i'll use myself as an example) has seen an average per page pay increase from $75-90 to $100-125, in the last 10 years.
So me pencilling an X-23 book would be about $2000-2500 per issue.
If I were to do all parts of the art (example Daniel Acuña, Sana Takeda, Alex Ross, etc), I'd be paid significantly more.
The problem, there are less and less journeyman artists anymore. With artists being able to work well into their 70's - 80's (Jack Kirby, Moebius, Sal Buscema, etc), it's becoming more expensive to pay the talent. Someone like Terry Dodson, or JH Williams, will make in the $250 per page range. Then someone like Alex Ross, there's been rumors of upwards of $15,000 an issue.
Writers, I sadly don't have the access to like I do the artists of the field. I'd concede any info to James on that.
Aslo; like I said in my previous posts, there's a LOT more to printing costs than you guys seem to want to accept.
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Captain Canuck
The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
So Alex Ross could pull in $180,000/year by doing the art for 12 issues (lets say there are 24 pages/issue thats 288 pages/year and $625/page). That's a good gig.
I'm not saying he doesn't work hard or that his art isn't pretty. But that's a lot of money.
But at the end of the day, the best selling title by far right now is Avengers v X-Men. I'm pretty sure it's a $4.99 title and from what I've been reading online it's basically another brainless brawl crossover. So from Marvel's perspective, they aren't going to listen to the rantings of angry people on the internet, they're going to continue to do what makes them money. Apparently a lot of people like those crossovers and think they're worth shelling out the money for. (I'm not one of them, but I may eventually pick it up in trade...)
So Alex Ross could pull in $180,000/year by doing the art for 12 issues (lets say there are 24 pages/issue thats 288 pages/year and $625/page). That's a good gig.
I'm not saying he doesn't work hard or that his art isn't pretty. But that's a lot of money.
But at the end of the day, the best selling title by far right now is Avengers v X-Men. I'm pretty sure it's a $4.99 title and from what I've been reading online it's basically another brainless brawl crossover. So from Marvel's perspective, they aren't going to listen to the rantings of angry people on the internet, they're going to continue to do what makes them money. Apparently a lot of people like those crossovers and think they're worth shelling out the money for. (I'm not one of them, but I may eventually pick it up in trade...)
Ice
Teh Sexy Monkey Queen
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
Avengers vs X-Men is $3.99.
Avengers vs X-Men is $3.99.
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
Problem with Alex Ross, there's zero chance in hell of him actually finish 12 issues in a year. His Justice maxi-series took about 3 years to paint, and it was still late to release.
And I'm not saying the recent spate of stories are worth $3.99/issue, because most of them are NOT. I'm saying it's not cheap to produce an issue of a comic.
What we need to focus on is why it costs me $2.99 for a new digital issue of Wonder Woman #8. Without the costs of physical printing and shipping, why should I pay for those costs?
Problem with Alex Ross, there's zero chance in hell of him actually finish 12 issues in a year. His Justice maxi-series took about 3 years to paint, and it was still late to release.
And I'm not saying the recent spate of stories are worth $3.99/issue, because most of them are NOT. I'm saying it's not cheap to produce an issue of a comic.
What we need to focus on is why it costs me $2.99 for a new digital issue of Wonder Woman #8. Without the costs of physical printing and shipping, why should I pay for those costs?
Friday
Well-Known Member
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
Well, from a business prospective thats exactly what they should be doing. We'd all like to think differently but at the end of the day if what they publish doesn't sell then they stop making comics. And I don't mean marvel, I mean the people behind the scenes.
Would you risk your job making comics because you think Avengers Vs X-Men is stupid? I know I sure as hell wouldn't.
But getting back to my point, my issue is with the drastic increase we've seen in the last few years and the inconsistent pricing tiers that Marvel uses. They basically seem to say "The public will pay $4 for this book, but they won't for this book." Say Wolverine and The X-Men compared to Daredevil. Both have high profile creative teams and are excellent books but one has a fanbase that'll gladly shell out $4 a book while the other does not. They're both regularly 20 pages. And one costs significantly more than the other.
Of course I don't expect anything to change anytime soon. After all, someone might loose his job, and no ones about to do anything that will keep food off their table.
Well, from a business prospective thats exactly what they should be doing. We'd all like to think differently but at the end of the day if what they publish doesn't sell then they stop making comics. And I don't mean marvel, I mean the people behind the scenes.
Would you risk your job making comics because you think Avengers Vs X-Men is stupid? I know I sure as hell wouldn't.
But getting back to my point, my issue is with the drastic increase we've seen in the last few years and the inconsistent pricing tiers that Marvel uses. They basically seem to say "The public will pay $4 for this book, but they won't for this book." Say Wolverine and The X-Men compared to Daredevil. Both have high profile creative teams and are excellent books but one has a fanbase that'll gladly shell out $4 a book while the other does not. They're both regularly 20 pages. And one costs significantly more than the other.
Of course I don't expect anything to change anytime soon. After all, someone might loose his job, and no ones about to do anything that will keep food off their table.
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
That's good info. Thanks.
As for printing costs, I know it's expensive. My graphic design education is in print and my parents owned a print shop that I worked at for about 7 years. I know printing is not cheap, but I also know that the costs of printing are NOT increasing at a rate comparable to the rate increase of the cover price of comics.
Besides, again - nowhere that I've seen has it ever been suggested by Marvel that the price increase is due to cost of production.
That's good info. Thanks.
As for printing costs, I know it's expensive. My graphic design education is in print and my parents owned a print shop that I worked at for about 7 years. I know printing is not cheap, but I also know that the costs of printing are NOT increasing at a rate comparable to the rate increase of the cover price of comics.
Besides, again - nowhere that I've seen has it ever been suggested by Marvel that the price increase is due to cost of production.
Captain Canuck
The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
Right, that's what i meant.
haha, well that's true.
I know, I remember your post a while back about the actual break downs. I don't disagree with you.
And yeah, that's pretty frustrating. BUT, I think part of that is that if you could buy the new digital downloads of comics the same day you could buy them in the store AND it was significantly cheaper, the print industry would die and comic shops would all close. And as much as I would like cheaper digital comics, that would be a shame.
Bass
Nexus of the World
The reason digital comics cost the same as print is to keep retailers in business and to maximize profits. If the digital comic cost 99c then retailers would go out of business and the comics companies' profit margins would drop.
The reason the print costs $3.99 is not due to increases. It's this: in the 90s a comic book would create a profit of say (plucking this out of the air, the number is less important than the principle) 200% per issue. As sales dropped so too did the profit margin. Companies care about profit in that they don't want reasonable or acceptable profits. If any stockholders got into the comic company because it was returning a 200% (or whatever) profit. If it drops to 100% then to them they're not making 100% profit; they're making a 100% loss because they gauge success by the highs not the average or the lows. If it did 200% once it'll do it every week forever or heads must roll. This is endemic in EVERY industry: people want to keep their exorbitant and unjustifiable profit margins and so they increase price and drop quality to do so, rather than accepting a reasonable profit.
Comics may not be able to justifiable sell at a buck, but the disproportionate increase with lowering sales and product quality is a self-destructive cycle: people buy less increasing the cost per good thus decreasing profit margin. So the product becomes cheaper to make (therefore skimping on quality) and the price is increased in order to meet what is an essentially unsustainable demand of profit. On and on it goes until it collapses, as it did in the late 90s and will do so again. This is what happened and is happening with Wall Street and General Motors and newspapers. The interest is on abstract numbers and not on the tangible product or service provided.
The reason the print costs $3.99 is not due to increases. It's this: in the 90s a comic book would create a profit of say (plucking this out of the air, the number is less important than the principle) 200% per issue. As sales dropped so too did the profit margin. Companies care about profit in that they don't want reasonable or acceptable profits. If any stockholders got into the comic company because it was returning a 200% (or whatever) profit. If it drops to 100% then to them they're not making 100% profit; they're making a 100% loss because they gauge success by the highs not the average or the lows. If it did 200% once it'll do it every week forever or heads must roll. This is endemic in EVERY industry: people want to keep their exorbitant and unjustifiable profit margins and so they increase price and drop quality to do so, rather than accepting a reasonable profit.
Comics may not be able to justifiable sell at a buck, but the disproportionate increase with lowering sales and product quality is a self-destructive cycle: people buy less increasing the cost per good thus decreasing profit margin. So the product becomes cheaper to make (therefore skimping on quality) and the price is increased in order to meet what is an essentially unsustainable demand of profit. On and on it goes until it collapses, as it did in the late 90s and will do so again. This is what happened and is happening with Wall Street and General Motors and newspapers. The interest is on abstract numbers and not on the tangible product or service provided.
Ultimate Houde
UC's Resident Genetic Recombinator
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
This is currently going on in my profession and the reason why we are failing.
This is currently going on in my profession and the reason why we are failing.
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
You missed a very important step in that process, and that is WHY the sales went down in the first place. And it's actually because of the price increases (imagine that) and the perceived lack of value.
It's a long and not-so-complicated story, and is best told by the owner of Mile High Comics, Chuck Rozanski. A few years ago, on his site, he started a sort of blog-like thing with articles about his time in the industry. I don't know for sure but I think he is seen as sort of lovably kooky, but he's a smart businessman and was able to grow and maintain his business even when the industry was down.
Anyway, in those articles he had a series about the acquisition of Marvel by businessman Ronald O. Perelman, who, long story short, raised prices and introduced gimmicks (die cut covers, holographic covers, etc.) in order to drain as much profit/value as he could out of the company before dumping everything when it became worthless. It's a tactic he had used with several other companies. It worked.
From the series:
And...
Hmmm...Marvel refused to accept that their prices were too high, even though they were being told so. Sound familiar?
Finally:
You missed a very important step in that process, and that is WHY the sales went down in the first place. And it's actually because of the price increases (imagine that) and the perceived lack of value.
It's a long and not-so-complicated story, and is best told by the owner of Mile High Comics, Chuck Rozanski. A few years ago, on his site, he started a sort of blog-like thing with articles about his time in the industry. I don't know for sure but I think he is seen as sort of lovably kooky, but he's a smart businessman and was able to grow and maintain his business even when the industry was down.
Anyway, in those articles he had a series about the acquisition of Marvel by businessman Ronald O. Perelman, who, long story short, raised prices and introduced gimmicks (die cut covers, holographic covers, etc.) in order to drain as much profit/value as he could out of the company before dumping everything when it became worthless. It's a tactic he had used with several other companies. It worked.
From the series:
And...
Hmmm...Marvel refused to accept that their prices were too high, even though they were being told so. Sound familiar?
Finally:
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
As I've said before, it's not just Publishing cost increases. How do you think they make it to comic shops/book stores/etc? With shipping and distribution fuel costs alone, some companies are actually taking a loss per issue. Plus a lot of artists are actually starting to get paid what their worth, Marvel's comic division is not where the money is. The mark up per issue for most comic shops is about 15 - 22%, at the high end, Marvel breaks even per issue. Also, as I said, not every issue sells, so they have to still make a profit per unit, so they figure a sales "sweet spot".
If there weren't successful licensing and movies (and now Disney money), Marvel would have gone belly up by now. Warner Brothers have kept DC afloat for decades.
You guys seem to think Marvel (and to a lesser extent DC) prints comics out of the love of their heart, but they're not. They need to keep making money to survive, sometimes prices go up, but adjusting for inflation, comic prices have increased slowly over the past 75+ years.
To put it into perspective; I randomly grabbed a comic out of a random long box in my library. I grabbed Cybernary #2 (print date Dec 1995), its cover price; $2.50 it has 24 pages (not counting ads). Adjusted for inflation, it's 2012 USD cost $3.75.
Random draw #2; Animal Mystic: Water Wars #6 (print date Oct 1998), cover price; $2.95 with 21 pages (no ads).
Inflation value; $4.16
Random draw #3; Black Widow #2 (print date July 1999), cover price; $2.99 with 22 pages (not counting ads).
Inflation value: $4.13
Soooo, comparing to how much I spent when these books were new. I'm actually spending about the same prices for a better physical quality book that bought 12+ years ago.
As to the "other gem" you found, is more proof that most of the sales/fan side of the industry are well.... idiots. The biggest thing killing comics, interactive entertainment. I see parents being dragged in by their kids, and spending $64.19 a pop on a game, and I see these people multiple times a month, I can guarantee you that they'd give anything for their kids asking for $4.27 comic books. Hell for the price of ONE new game, you can get 15 Marvel comics, and most people don't read that many titles a month, let alone 15 titles from one publisher.
As I've said before, it's not just Publishing cost increases. How do you think they make it to comic shops/book stores/etc? With shipping and distribution fuel costs alone, some companies are actually taking a loss per issue. Plus a lot of artists are actually starting to get paid what their worth, Marvel's comic division is not where the money is. The mark up per issue for most comic shops is about 15 - 22%, at the high end, Marvel breaks even per issue. Also, as I said, not every issue sells, so they have to still make a profit per unit, so they figure a sales "sweet spot".
If there weren't successful licensing and movies (and now Disney money), Marvel would have gone belly up by now. Warner Brothers have kept DC afloat for decades.
You guys seem to think Marvel (and to a lesser extent DC) prints comics out of the love of their heart, but they're not. They need to keep making money to survive, sometimes prices go up, but adjusting for inflation, comic prices have increased slowly over the past 75+ years.
To put it into perspective; I randomly grabbed a comic out of a random long box in my library. I grabbed Cybernary #2 (print date Dec 1995), its cover price; $2.50 it has 24 pages (not counting ads). Adjusted for inflation, it's 2012 USD cost $3.75.
Random draw #2; Animal Mystic: Water Wars #6 (print date Oct 1998), cover price; $2.95 with 21 pages (no ads).
Inflation value; $4.16
Random draw #3; Black Widow #2 (print date July 1999), cover price; $2.99 with 22 pages (not counting ads).
Inflation value: $4.13
Soooo, comparing to how much I spent when these books were new. I'm actually spending about the same prices for a better physical quality book that bought 12+ years ago.
As to the "other gem" you found, is more proof that most of the sales/fan side of the industry are well.... idiots. The biggest thing killing comics, interactive entertainment. I see parents being dragged in by their kids, and spending $64.19 a pop on a game, and I see these people multiple times a month, I can guarantee you that they'd give anything for their kids asking for $4.27 comic books. Hell for the price of ONE new game, you can get 15 Marvel comics, and most people don't read that many titles a month, let alone 15 titles from one publisher.
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Captain Canuck
The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
That seems like bad economics...
This makes sense. How are you connected to/so informed about the industry? I know you're an artist, have you done work for/looked into doing work for a comic company?
Cybernary and Animal Mystic: Water Wars?
Actually, I was thinking the same thing. Kids don't buy comics any more because they don't read. Even mediums that are mostly pictures. It seems to me that the biggest demographic of people who read comics is men aged 25-55 with expendable income, who read comics when they were kids. You could make the argument that Marvel needs to do a better job of marketing their product to children, but I don't think it's a very strong argument. In fact, the whole reason Disney bought Marvel (I assume, and I think I assume correctly) was because they saw the profit possibilities in movies, cartoons, and marketable merchandise (toys, video games, clothes, etc). Kids are aware of the Avengers, Spider-Man, and the X-Men, they may even think they're awesome, but they like watching cartoons, movies, and playing video games. They (for the most part) aren't interested in reading a comic book.
Re: The [apparently decreasing] price of comics.
That's all well and good, but Marvel has said specifically that the cost increases came about as a duty to shareholders, not because they are adjusting for inflation.
Well that's just not true at all. They *were* increasing slowly until the late 80s, when they took massive jumps. I think the number was something like 400% over 7 years. That's not slow.
The shift in marketing away from kids and toward adults is at least 15 years old. SO much so that Marvel and DC have lines specifically for kids. Their "main" universe books haven't been targeted toward or appropriate for kids since just after Marvel's bankruptcy.
That's all well and good, but Marvel has said specifically that the cost increases came about as a duty to shareholders, not because they are adjusting for inflation.
Well that's just not true at all. They *were* increasing slowly until the late 80s, when they took massive jumps. I think the number was something like 400% over 7 years. That's not slow.
The shift in marketing away from kids and toward adults is at least 15 years old. SO much so that Marvel and DC have lines specifically for kids. Their "main" universe books haven't been targeted toward or appropriate for kids since just after Marvel's bankruptcy.
