Ultimate Controversy

MaxwellSmart

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What I would personally like to see is a story arc that stirs up controversy. One idea I had was a villian from the middle east. This is one way I thought of to introduce Legion as "The Legion of Islam."
 

TheManWithoutFear

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I think Ultimate Red Skull could be from the Middle East. I really think it's important in both MU and/or UU that there be a new Middle Eastern villain. I'd like my kids to read comics and see a villain from Iraq, Iran, or Afganistan so they could realize that at some point in time there was war with these countries. I think that was the whole idea behind Red Skull wasn't it? A symbol of terror from that time period?
 

thee great one

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That's a great idea. MWoF you have some serious good ideas. That would be sweet.

P.S. I'm glad your staying. You should only do what you want to do. :mrgreen:
 

nigma

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TheManWithoutFear said:
I think Ultimate Red Skull could be from the Middle East. I really think it's important in both MU and/or UU that there be a new Middle Eastern villain. I'd like my kids to read comics and see a villain from Iraq, Iran, or Afganistan so they could realize that at some point in time there was war with these countries. I think that was the whole idea behind Red Skull wasn't it? A symbol of terror from that time period?


I don't ever remember there being 'one' for Vietnam.
My old school comics aren’t at top notch, but wasn't the red skull from the dead arm race aka The Cold War? From JFK's time period after the world war
 
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Friday

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nigma said:
I don't ever remember there being for Vietnam.
My old school comics aren’t at top notch, but wasn't the red skull from the dead arm race aka The Cold War? From JFK's time period.
I do believe he was a Nazi. Hitlers second in command, or some nonsense like that.

Honestly, I don't want a straight Middle Eastern Villian. All it would serve is to kick up controversy, and its unlikely that it would be a good story. Lets just worry about good storytelling before dipping the pen in political ink.
 

The Overlord

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TheManWithoutFear said:
I think Ultimate Red Skull could be from the Middle East. I really think it's important in both MU and/or UU that there be a new Middle Eastern villain. I'd like my kids to read comics and see a villain from Iraq, Iran, or Afganistan so they could realize that at some point in time there was war with these countries. I think that was the whole idea behind Red Skull wasn't it? A symbol of terror from that time period?

If not handled carefully such villains would come off as one dimenisonal like all those lame communist villains from the 1960s. If they don't have a motivation beyond: "Ha, ha, ha! Now you will die infidels!" they will be very sorry villains indeed.
 

E

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TheManWithoutFear said:
I think Ultimate Red Skull could be from the Middle East. I really think it's important in both MU and/or UU that there be a new Middle Eastern villain. I'd like my kids to read comics and see a villain from Iraq, Iran, or Afganistan so they could realize that at some point in time there was war with these countries. I think that was the whole idea behind Red Skull wasn't it? A symbol of terror from that time period?

Great point.

I understand the concern that such villains would be one dimensional, but I really do think that writing has evolved enough since then to where this isn't a concern.
 

Patriot Mk2

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TheManWithoutFear said:
I think Ultimate Red Skull could be from the Middle East. I really think it's important in both MU and/or UU that there be a new Middle Eastern villain. I'd like my kids to read comics and see a villain from Iraq, Iran, or Afganistan so they could realize that at some point in time there was war with these countries. I think that was the whole idea behind Red Skull wasn't it? A symbol of terror from that time period?

I reckon the alien Nazi from Homeland Security is the closest we'll get to URS beyond a WW2 Cap mini.

What? Why? So that Marvel can cry "down with the towlies" along with the rest of America? Was Al-Tariq(an excellently done character by the way) not enough? There already was one, and you've forgotten him already? Shows how much you want a reason to root against them, IMHO.
 

E

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Johnny Bravo said:
Shows how much you want a reason to root against them, IMHO.

That's not how I read it. It's more of an homage to past stories.
 

Patriot Mk2

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UltimateE said:
That's not how I read it. It's more of an homage to past stories.

Such as?Why not an american soldier that spends his spare time beating up middle easterns in his neighbouhood?
 

Bass

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Well, originally Ultimate Captain America got his super soldier serum during the Gulf War.

I don't think people today fully understand the difference between the Middle Eastern villains of our time and the Nazis of WWII.

Firstly, terrorism, Hussein and others are nowhere near the same kind of threat as the Nazis, Japanese and the Russians during WWII. The axis was capable of almost ruling the world through it's military campaign - compared to Iraq or Al-Qaeda or whomever you wish to claim is a threat who are incapable of a military invasion of American soil. To create a villain for the purposes of demonstrating the 'war' against the Middle East of the same scale as the Red Skull would be unfair.

Also, what is even more reprehensible is the concept of having a "Middle Eastern" villain to represent Hussein, terrorism and so forth.

The Red Skull represented Germany and the Nazis - not Europe. If you want an Iraqi villain to demonstrate that conflict (which will be little more than propaganda) then I can understand the desire. If you want a Saudi, I understand. But the sheer generalisation of a "Middle Eastern" villain is horrendously prejudiced and bigoted. That concept includes not only Iraq but but also Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Turkey, Egypt, Pakistan, India (though I suppose you could argue Asia in their case to some extent), Israel, Palestine, Dubei, Brunei, Iran, Syria... all of these countries are unique and individual, and cannot and should not be painted with the same brush, just as you would not paint Britain, Germany, Spain, Italy, and France with the same brush.

I understand that you do not mean to be offensive or insulting, but while I can understand the desire for a contemporary villain that represents the turmoil with the current Middle Eastern regions, namely Iraq, please keep such suggestions to the countries and to the actual players in this 'war', and not to entire demographics of an entire continent and the people who populate it because they share similar geography.
 

MoS

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I do not want to read about modern political situations in comics, mostly because I don't want to have to be annoyed with cardboard depictions of real-life political issues. This is why I stopped reading Black Panther, even though I suspect that Hudlin and I are probably relatively in the same spectrum of political beliefs -- it was too heavy-handed and the thinly veiled Condoleeza Rice and Bush analogs ticked me off. I want my villains to be entirely made-up so I don't have to roll my eyes.
 

TheManWithoutFear

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Rhyo said:
I do not want to read about modern political situations in comics, mostly because I don't want to have to be annoyed with cardboard depictions of real-life political issues.QUOTE]

You must HATE THE ULTIMATES then.

And Bass you're completely right. I apologize for the prejudice comment. But I was trying to make it more general so other people who aren't aware of the politics and current events. It was wrong but still that's where the face of most terrorism comes from so some form of terrorist from that area would be fitting.
 

Bass

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TheManWithoutFear said:
And Bass you're completely right. I apologize for the prejudice comment. But I was trying to make it more general so other people who aren't aware of the politics and current events. It was wrong but still that's where the face of most terrorism comes from so some form of terrorist from that area would be fitting.

No need to apologise MWOF, I didn't take offense, because I knew that there was none. I just wanted to point out the inherent prejudice of the language used, not specifically to call anyone prejudiced.

Also, it's true that a lot of the current 'pop' terrorism as it were, the terrorism with the most news coverage is indeed, middle eastern. However, there's still domestic terrorism from white boys in the US, that good ol' IRA, then there's the serbs and the Russians and... well, there's tons of terrorists. I don't know if most of them really are middle eastern.

Again, I'm just cleaning up the language, because it's not really accurate and can spawn an argument simply from the wrong inference.

Thanks, but there's no need to apologise, MWOF. I do it too.

Damn Americans.

:D
 

Bass

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Rhyo said:
This is why I stopped reading Black Panther,

I stopped reading Black Panther for many reasons. One of them was centuries old Africans saying "Be Cool" to themselves. I didn't realise that Africans were always 'down with "it"' before "it" even existed. Obviously, urban black culture was ingrained in their DNA long before there was an urban black culture.
 

Widdle Wade

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Why do Middle easterns always have to be villains, hasnt anyone thought about a Hero, or at least anti-hero! Or a hero from the middle east whos ideologies clash with someone like Cap America, and thats the conflict right there.

I think I might make a fan-fic, of some heroes based in the Marvel Universe, based somewhere in North Africa....cause I aint even seen any sort of mention to them countries!
 

ourchair

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Widdle Wade said:
Why do Middle easterns always have to be villains, hasnt anyone thought about a Hero, or at least anti-hero! Or a hero from the middle east whos ideologies clash with someone like Cap America, and thats the conflict right there.

I think I might make a fan-fic, of some heroes based in the Marvel Universe, based somewhere in North Africa....cause I aint even seen any sort of mention to them countries!
I wouldn't mind such a hero, but in the hands of lesser writers such a character would be as clever as Black Lightning.
 

TheManWithoutFear

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Widdle Wade said:
Why do Middle easterns always have to be villains, hasnt anyone thought about a Hero, or at least anti-hero! Or a hero from the middle east whos ideologies clash with someone like Cap America, and thats the conflict right there!
Runnin' with the same thought as before... I wouldn't mind a hero from that region but I'd better get a villain out of it. If my kids are going to read comics and they see this single hero and I know I go back and research most of what I see, so should they. They're gonna tie that hero in with our era and let's face it it's not the friendliest of times in that area. I'm not being a bigot but it's history... Comic books should be more than just entertainment.
 

MoS

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TheManWithoutFear said:
Rhyo said:
I do not want to read about modern political situations in comics, mostly because I don't want to have to be annoyed with cardboard depictions of real-life political issues.

You must HATE THE ULTIMATES then.

That is, actually, one of my few gripes about Ultimates. Fortunately there is enough other material of quality and depth in the comic that I can ignore it. Plus, MM isn't using the Middle East situations in the book as anything other than a foil for what he wants to say about other, larger issues involving how the Ultimates are being used. Had the book been written at an earlier time, the situations would have been in Bosnia instead.
 

Parthuman

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TheManWithoutFear said:
Runnin' with the same thought as before... I wouldn't mind a hero from that region but I'd better get a villain out of it. If my kids are going to read comics and they see this single hero and I know I go back and research most of what I see, so should they. They're gonna tie that hero in with our era and let's face it it's not the friendliest of times in that area. I'm not being a bigot but it's history... Comic books should be more than just entertainment.

He could be a hero. I've been to Iraq twice and, believe me, there are people who qualify. You can't generalize and have one rep from the "Middle East" (most of our Sept. 11 guys were from our supposed friend Saudi Arabia) be a villain.

I'd prefer a selection.

The hero: Luke Dubai, mild-mannered local elected official whose unbreakable skin keeps him from getting assassinated.

The anti-hero: Capt. Kabul, who wants to keep the US from wiping out the Afghan poppy trade that supplies the heroin that keeps his country running.

The villain: OBlama Bin Doom, The Immortal Suicide Bomber.

I'd much rather see a French villain. "Whaddya think this F stands for? Flee!"
 

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