Ultimate Sandman

[The Overlord]

Although Sandman has appeared in the ultimate Universe, his character has not really been expanded or touched upon in a meaningiful way. Should Ultimate Sandman have the same characterization he has in the Spider-Man 3 movie:

Spoiler

In the Spider-Man 3 Sandman commits crimes in order to get medical attention for his daugther who suffers a number of diseases that threaten her life. In the Ultimate Universe, it could be "revealed" that Sandman that Flint Marko volunteered for the experiment that turned him into the Sandman because he was promised a large amount of money in return. instead Justin Hammer had Marko locked up and treated him like a lab rat. Similarly he joined the Ultimate Six not only get revenge on fury, but also to get the money Osborn promised. While he was imprisoned, Flint's wife was taking care of their sick daugther, working 3 jobs to support the barest requirements of the medical treatment their daugther needed to survive. However Flint's wife has recently died in a car crash and Flint is the only one left to care of his daugther, so he escapes from prison to commit crimes to support his daugther. He has bares some ill will to towards Spider-Man, who he somewaht blames for his inability to get the money needed for his daugther's medical treatment and for imprisoning him away from his family (he feels guilty that his wife died while he was in prison.) this would give Ultimate spidey a tragic foe, something he has been missing in the Ultimate Universe. It would nice change of pace if Spider-Man had a villain he felt sorry for.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I agree. Sandman should be focused on especially since he's going to be featured in the new film and since you see a more human side to him, I'd like to see it followed in the UU also.

EDIT: Xept how 'bout this time we don't have him kill Unlce Ben.

 

[Ultimate MJ]

I agree. Sandman should be focused on especially since he's going to be featured in the new film

I cringe every time I think of marvel forcing their writers to include characters just because theres a movie coming out. I know that this has actually provided us with several good things (Ultimate Universe, more comic fans, cool takes on characters like Doc Ock and Magneto....), I just get really afraid when Marvel writes by editorial mandate.

and since you see a more human side to him, I'd like to see it followed in the UU also.

EDIT: Xept how 'bout this time we don't have him kill Unlce Ben.

And despite my first paragraph, I agree. Ultimate Sandman does have some fleshing out of his character needed, it could be really cool.

I always like how in Millars MK:Spiderman

Spoiler

Vulture stole the Owl's money to pay for an operation on his estranged grandson

. The human dimension, as well as Spidermans subsequent guilt were fresh angles IMO.

 

[The Overlord]

I agree. Sandman should be focused on especially since he's going to be featured in the new film and since you see a more human side to him, I'd like to see it followed in the UU also.

EDIT: Xept how 'bout this time we don't have him kill Unlce Ben.

Spoiler

I don't think Sandman killed Uncle Ben in the movie, I would assume that Spidey and the police are mistaken about Flint being the tigger man and that assumption is fueled by the by the symbiote, thus adding to tragic nature of Spider-man's quest for revenge, he is hunting the wrong person.

Anyway considering the 616 Sandman was one Spidey's more honourable villains, he did reform for a quite a while in the 616 universe, it makes sense that Ultimate Sandman become one of the more sympathetic villains in USM.

Look at Mr. Freeze, he was one of the lamest villains around, until Bruce Timm gave him a his terminally ill, cryogenically frozen wife, made his emotions frozen as well and stressed the tragic nature by Freeze having to live only in a sub zero enviroment. He went from a lame villain, to a truly tragic, one you could feel sorry for, he was millions times better after that. The Ultimate Universe lacks any truly sympathetic villains, so it would be good if they made Sandman into a sympathetic villain, because otherwise he would just be a greedy thug and frankly Electro has that role in USM.

 

[jack]

So nobody else felt Kingpin was kind of a sympathetic villian?

 

[chatbleu]

The Sandman would be fantastic as the lead villain for a USM arc.The sooner the better as far as I'm concerned. It would be a refreshing change from the way current arcs are going.
I am also in complete agreement with the Overlord (I feel like a hired stooge just for saying that ) concerning his spoiler post.

So nobody else felt Kingpin was kind of a sympathetic villian?

I don't know, the fact that he seemed to be intimate with Cpt. De Wolfe (USM Annual #2) really killed alot of the sympathy I had for the character. The fact that he's also a pretty ruthless son-of-a-***** doesn't help either.8)

 

[bluebeast]

I think it would be completely out of character for Flint Marko to be a sympathetic villains. When Sharon Carter first read his file it was read like this... "The file reads: Flint Marko-- career peice of crap. He was sent to Rykers for fifty years for the single worst crime spree I have ever seen on paper. He tried to rob a Brink's car, failed, ran away, went home, beat up his girlfriend... (In what I guess was frustration over the botched job.) The cops came on a call from neighbors, Marko beat up one of the cops, put him into the hospital. Eventually the cop dies. So, all that adds up to about the single most disgusting human being I have ever heard of and fifty years in Ryker's."

Now that is a character I can sympathises with. maybe if you tried it with someone else it would work but definetly not with the Sandman. Now Curt Conners the Lizard? Yes.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Spoiler

I don't think Sandman killed Uncle Ben in the movie, I would assume that Spidey and the police are mistaken about Flint being the tigger man and that assumption is fueled by the by the symbiote, thus adding to tragic nature of Spider-man's quest for revenge, he is hunting the wrong person.

You're a good man.

 

[cmdrjanjalani]

USM has never been known for sympathetic villains. If Ultimate Doc Ock took over Molina's role, he would have massacred everyone in the railway by impaling them with his tentacles, based on how he didn't mind killing a family to steal a plane during the Hollywood arc and using a taxi driver as a decoy.

Spoiler

We actually three sympathetic villains in USM. Kingpin, who may be ruthless in business but seems to have a softer side for his intimate relationships. To be honest, we don't know if Kingpin's wife survived since it seems that whatever sickness she has, the only thing Fisk can think of in hopes of curing her was that weird stone Black Cat stole. Hobgoblin, obviously with Harry unable to control what he becomes thanks to his father, and the latest Carnage who may be Gwen Stacy or simply has her memories. Perhaps Scorpion and 'Kaine' can also be included, but it depends.

 

[jack]

I don't know, the fact that he seemed to be intimate with Cpt. De Wolfe (USM Annual #2) really killed alot of the sympathy I had for the character. The fact that he's also a pretty ruthless son-of-a-***** doesn't help either.8)

I'll admit that his trystkilled some of it, especially if he did indeed care for his wife as much as he claimed to earlier :cry:

Spoiler

We actually three sympathetic villains in USM. Kingpin, who may be ruthless in business but seems to have a softer side for his intimate relationships. Hobgoblin, obviously with Harry unable to control what he becomes thanks to his father, and the latest Carnage who may be Gwen Stacy or simply has her memories. Perhaps Scorpion and 'Kaine' can also be included, but it depends.

Truth

 

[The Overlord]

So nobody else felt Kingpin was kind of a sympathetic villian?

Kingpin was a crime boss before his wife got sick, so he wasn't a villain because of a tragic event, his whole life wasn't destroyed by circumstances. I don't feel sorry him, Fisk is a ruthless crime boss and was before his wife got sick.

I think it would be completely out of character for Flint Marko to be a sympathetic villains. When Sharon Carter first read his file it was read like this... "The file reads: Flint Marko-- career peice of crap. He was sent to Rykers for fifty years for the single worst crime spree I have ever seen on paper. He tried to rob a Brink's car, failed, ran away, went home, beat up his girlfriend... (In what I guess was frustration over the botched job.) The cops came on a call from neighbors, Marko beat up one of the cops, put him into the hospital. Eventually the cop dies. So, all that adds up to about the single most disgusting human being I have ever heard of and fifty years in Ryker's."

Now that is a character I can sympathises with. maybe if you tried it with someone else it would work but definetly not with the Sandman. Now Curt Conners the Lizard? Yes.

That little description can be retconned, because Electro is already the career piece of crap, so what, Electro and Sandman are going to have the same personality, but different power sets? God, how boring. I think Sandman should be sympathetic just to change the pace, the Ultimate Universe does not another thug, there are already a million of those. Besides bigger retcons have occured in the Ultimate Universe, when Nick Fury was first introduced in the UU, he was white.

I can't sympathize with Curt Conners after the carnage arc. He tricker parker, created the Carnage and is indirectly responsible for Gewn Stacey's death. Spidey doesn't feel sorry him and neither do I, so he can't be the sympathetic villain, Spidey wouldn't buy it and neither would I.

USM has never been known for sympathetic villains. If Ultimate Doc Ock took over Molina's role, he would have massacred everyone in the railway by impaling them with his tentacles, based on how he didn't mind killing a family to steal a plane during the Hollywood arc and using a taxi driver as a decoy.

Spoiler

We actually three sympathetic villains in USM. Kingpin, who may be ruthless in business but seems to have a softer side for his intimate relationships. To be honest, we don't know if Kingpin's wife survived since it seems that whatever sickness she has, the only thing Fisk can think of in hopes of curing her was that weird stone Black Cat stole. Hobgoblin, obviously with Harry unable to control what he becomes thanks to his father, and the latest Carnage who may be Gwen Stacy or simply has her memories. Perhaps Scorpion and 'Kaine' can also be included, but it depends.

Why can't USM have some truly sympathetic villains, seriously all the villains are either thugs or psychos, its gotten so boring.

Spoiler

We don't the full story with Gwen/Carnge so one cannot if it is sympathetic or not. As for the Kingpin, many Nazis during WWII committed genocide during the day and then went home and were nice to families, how is Kingpin any different from them and why should I feel sorry for him? Hobgoblin is the best example you have, but a lot of people think that story was botched, so that kinda defeats the point, good try, but fails due to bad execution.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Kingpin isn't nearly the type of man he's supposed to be. As far as Organized Crime Bosses like him, he's way too extreme. I wish he was more like a Gambino or Bruno.

 

[thee great one]

I like the aspect of Sandman and Electro has thugs with powers.

 

[the watcher]

Although Sandman has appeared in the ultimate Universe, his character has not really been expanded or touched upon in a meaningiful way. Should Ultimate Sandman have the same characterization he has in the Spider-Man 3movie:

Spoiler

In the Spider-Man 3 Sandman commits crimes in order to get medical attention for his daugther who suffers a number of diseases that threaten her life. In the Ultimate Universe, it could be "revealed" that Sandman that Flint Marko volunteered for the experiment that turned him into the Sandman because he was promised a large amount of money in return. instead Justin Hammer had Marko locked up and treated him like a lab rat. Similarly he joined the Ultimate Six not only get revenge on fury, but also to get the money Osborn promised. While he was imprisoned, Flint's wife was taking care of their sick daugther, working 3 jobs to support the barest requirements of the medical treatment their daugther needed to survive. However Flint's wife has recently died in a car crash and Flint is the only one left to care of his daugther, so he escapes from prison to commit crimes to support his daugther. He has bares some ill will to towards Spider-Man, who he somewaht blames for his inability to get the money needed for his daugther's medical treatment and for imprisoning him away from his family (he feels guilty that his wife died while he was in prison.) this would give Ultimate spidey a tragic foe, something he has been missing in the Ultimate Universe. It would nice change of pace if Spider-Man had a villain he felt sorry for.

You know I was actually was thinking about this today as I was working. You know they will be doing a Sandman, Venom, or Green Goblin II / Hobgoblin story in one of the books. For sure, it will be in Marvel Adventures for the kids and I do hope it will be in The Ultimate line. We did see that pic. from The Ultimates Vol. 3 with Venom in it, so that story might be up during that time.

 

[The Overlord]

I like the aspect of Sandman and Electro has thugs with powers.

Why do think making them both thugs is interesting? They would have the same personality, only with different powers. I think that's so boring. The USM rogues gallery could use some more pathos, IMO.

You're a good man.

Keep in mind this is just a theory I heard, not the gospel truth. However its a good theory and I hope its true, I believe Sam Raimi has repect for the source material and wouldn't change such an important aspect of the Spider-Man mythos.

 

[Issued]

They probably should concentrate on Sandman , but not this way.This sonds like too painful.Flint Marko is supposed t be a natural bad guy , not a guy that was forced to be bad.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

They probably should concentrate on Sandman , but not this way.This sonds like too painful.Flint Marko is supposed t be a natural bad guy , not a guy that was forced to be bad.

And who is that up too?

 

[Zombipanda]

What we haven't seen much of in the UU are working class guys who get involved in organized crime to make some cash and inevitably it starts to consume their life. I don't think Flint needs a huge amount of pathos. I think him trying to find a cure for his daughter's a little cliche, and just a little too much. I've always seen the Sandman as pretty much a thug, but that doesn't mean he's "naturally bad" or that he doesn't have any aspirations.

Sandman should be a bad guy, not a good guy forced to do bad things out of love, but he shouldn't be evil.

 

[The Overlord]

What we haven't seen much of in the UU are working class guys who get involved in organized crime to make some cash and inevitably it starts to consume their life. I don't think Flint needs a huge amount of pathos. I think him trying to find a cure for his daughter's a little cliche, and just a little too much. I've always seen the Sandman as pretty much a thug, but that doesn't mean he's "naturally bad" or that he doesn't have any aspirations.

Sandman should be a bad guy, not a good guy forced to do bad things out of love, but he shouldn't be evil.

And thug villains aren't cliched? About 75% of the villains in the UU are thugs, gets kinda boring after a while. Almost all of the villains in USM's rogues gallery are either thugs or psychos, there are hardly any sympathetic villains in USM, there is great lack of pathos in the USM rogues gallery in general, there is almost no villain I feel sorry for, even Curt Conners is a jerk, maybe Hobgoblin, but still I want Spidey to feel sorry for villain because he is a human being, not because the villain in question is Peter's best friend. I say give me villain with pathos, to break up the cycle of thug and psycho villains we see all the time in USM.

 

[Issued]

After how Flint was profiled in USM, there is no way we can create a symphatic villain out of him. He can't beat up his girlfriend and stay as a good guy.

Electro has a greater plan! He is greedy and stuff. He has a target. And he is the shocking villain version of spidey (don't worry , this will only hurt a lot!!).

On the other hand Ultimate Sandman ... well not much is known to him except of what DeWolfe told about him.And what she told is really not-so-nice.But the list she gave her isnt a list for a villain with a greater plan. He is just a natural bad guy , and he can stay like that.

Symphatic villains??I think USM has pretty much of them. There sure is The Hobgoblin as the best example.Unlucky kiddo went Hulkish is symphatic.
And we have Herman The Shocker , not exactly symphatic , but I always feel excited when i see him , because something funny will happen for sure .
Not all villains need to have super powers , DeWolfe was a symphatic villain , until we learnt that she was one.
And there is Venom.Ultimate Venom is one of the best defined characters in Ultimate Universe, you can feel him.To admit I actually felt sorry when Peter couldn't find Eddie on the rooftops at the end of the storyline.Why? I tell you , its not about spidey, its because i wanted to know what happened to Venom after that incident (anything but the crappy video game could satisfact me).