Ultimately cancelled?

DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
What did you think of the ultimate comics: ironman story? Devil in the armour? Something like that?

That was ok. Not exactly memorable or worthwhile, but much better than the Card Ult Iron Man stuff. I liked the Ult Iron Man vs Hulk mini, though it's been awhile since I read it.
 

wyokid

Well-Known Member
You're entitled to your opinion all you want, just don't be surprised when someone disagrees and gives their reasons why, which I'm about to do:

Ultimate Iron Man, after Ultimates 3, is the absolute worst work done in the Ultimate universe.

First, Tony was portrayed as a drunk in Ultimates, yes, but that's an intrinsic part of who the character was in the 616 universe. The only difference is he's a full on drunk in the Ultimate universe and not a recovering alcoholic. Given the brain tumor and his insanely high intelligence, I can understand it.

And yes, Ultimate Iron Man was so "out there", but not in a good way. Card attempted to pointlessly alter Tony's abilities. Instead of him being a normal human with super intelligence in a suit, Card turned him into a Wolverine-esque type character in terms of his ability to regrow limbs and body parts, something which is irrevocably stupid and unnecessary for Iron Man.

Card has written some great sci-fi novels in the past, but his take on Iron Man was an ego driven attempt to reboot a character who'd already been rebooted. It was unnecessary and moronic, as I said, and also completely went against continuity since Tony at no point had shown the ability to heal himself. Ultimate Iron Man was Card's attempt to wank his ego off using Ultimate Iron Man. And it showed.

If Card wanted to tell such a story, let him do it with original characters. That might've made it more forgivable, except for the damn monkey brains. So stupid.

I think that's why people hate it and why I love it. I HATED Ultimate Tony before that. HATED. Now thanks to Card, Bendis, Loeb, and Ellis I love him.
 

DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
I think that's why people hate it and why I love it. I HATED Ultimate Tony before that. HATED. Now thanks to Card, Bendis, Loeb, and Ellis I love him.

I still think Millar wrote the best Ultimate Tony Stark. He brought us the best iteration of the lovable scoundrel that Tony is, which I think largely inspired the movie version portrayed by RDJ (albeit with substantially less drinking). Not to say it's completely the same or not also heavily influenced by the 616 version as well, but I always get the vibe that RDJ is channeling a toned down version of Ultimate Tony in his performances.

And in your opinion, how was giving Ultimate Tony regenerative powers a la Wolverine a good thing? It was stupid, pointless, amateurish, and a clumsy and unneeded retcon, which was quickly in and of itself retconned (thank God) because it was so moronic. How is that good writing to you? Like I said if that's something Card wanted to explore he should've done so with an original character, not one who'd already had an extensive depiction in said comic universe NEVER REGENERATING because he's not frigging Wolverine. And nano-monkeys...really. Jesus.

Also, I don't see what Loeb ever did with Ultimate Iron Man that was noteworthy, worthwhile, etc. I was horrified by everything Loeb did in the Ultimate verse, because it was all mind-numbing, shallow crap.
 
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Captain Canuck

The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
Ultimate Iron Man, after Ultimates 3, is the absolute worst work done in the Ultimate universe.

Really? Worse than Ultimatum and the Ultimate Hulk annual and Ultimate Power?

It was frustratingly out of sync with the previously established Iron Man, but at least the story was coherent. The second one was also way worse than the first.
 

wyokid

Well-Known Member
I still think Millar wrote the best Ultimate Tony Stark. He brought us the best iteration of the lovable scoundrel that Tony is, which I think largely inspired the movie version portrayed by RDJ (albeit with substantially less drinking). Not to say it's completely the same or not also heavily influenced by the 616 version as well, but I always get the vibe that RDJ is channeling a toned down version of Ultimate Tony in his performances.

For me he wasn't lovable. For me he was a giant emotionally void ******* who didn't learn from his mistakes or care about anything but himself. Everyone was just a giant prick under Millar. Cap was a xenophobic bully and a mockery of the original character, Bruce was a whiney and emo horndog, Thor was a massive Liberal hippie, Betty was an emotionally manipulative *****, Hank and Janet were fine until the issue with them just beating the hell out of each other, Black Widow and Hawkeye are introduced by slaughtering not only bad guys but innocent people, and Nick Fury was just kind of there. Ugh.

And in your opinion, how was giving Ultimate Tony regenerative powers a la Wolverine a good thing? It was stupid, pointless, amateurish, and a clumsy and unneeded retcon, which was quickly in and of itself retconned (thank God) because it was so moronic. How is that good writing to you? Like I said if that's something Card wanted to explore he should've done so with an original character, not one who'd already had an extensive depiction in said comic universe NEVER REGENERATING because he's not frigging Wolverine. And nano-monkeys...really. Jesus.

Is your problem not the power but that it goes against continuity? My belief is that continuity is there to serve a story and not the other way around. If Millar wanted to he could have squeezed it in. Instead he decided to not only make it a cartoon but then mock it. Regardless of how you feel about the story that's just not a cool thing to do. I thought was a cool power (loved how his whole body was a brain) and it even got referenced in Ultimate Human.

Also, I don't see what Loeb ever did with Ultimate Iron Man that was noteworthy, worthwhile, etc. I was horrified by everything Loeb did in the Ultimate verse, because it was all mind-numbing, shallow crap.

I LOVED the sex tape. In the first two volumes they were obsessed with PR and a sex tape with not only two members but the fact that one of them was a traitor was just juicy. Then it was revealed to be Ultron behind it and it got juicier. I also loved his relationship with Carol Danvers. Really wish Jeph Loeb could have been able to continue with that. I really wish the original plans for Ultimatum happened (was originally MUCH smaller before Bendis decided that it should be an event) because as much as I loved New Ultimates The Ultimates 4 with Ed McGuinness and an actual story arc for Zarda would have been epic.

It was frustratingly out of sync with the previously established Iron Man, but at least the story was coherent. The second one was also way worse than the first.

I will say that I did not enjoy the second one that much. Everyone just sort of devolved into psychopaths.
 
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wyokid

Well-Known Member
Just going to say this: Hawkeye and Widow didn't kill any innocents. Everyone in both buildings were alien sleeper agents.

I refuse to believe that a building in New York only had sleeper agents in it. That's unrealistic and silly. ESPECIALLY in a comic that focused on "realism". That's like saying no one died in the final act of Man of Steel.
 
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Captain Canuck

The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
I refuse to believe that a building in New York only had sleeper agents in it. That's unrealistic and silly. ESPECIALLY in a comic that focused on "realism". That's like saying no one died in the final act of Man of Steel.

Didn't it show them turning back into the Chitauri when they had been shot?
 

themightygwynne

Well-Known Member
I think the good thing with the ultimate universe used to be that it would come back and go : actually this is weird isn't it?

Like with Thor I loved ultimates 2 and everyone going? Wait...this guy is a god? And with cap there was much more if the out of time stuff and I guess 50s jock guy would be a bit of a douche.

Giant man...when you look at it he is kinda useless.

But when that had stopped and the examination had sort of stopped suddenly they had to come up with new stories and new ideas and that's when it became apparent that for all the clever mirror holding these were much the same characters, and suddenly nothing new or fresh was coming out and it began to feel very much like the 616
 

E

Moderator
Excelsior Club
That was ok. Not exactly memorable or worthwhile, but much better than the Card Ult Iron Man stuff. I liked the Ult Iron Man vs Hulk mini, though it's been awhile since I read it.

Ultimate Hulk vs. Iron Man was great. That was Warren Ellis. I really enjoyed that.

Really? Worse than Ultimatum and the Ultimate Hulk annual and Ultimate Power?

It was frustratingly out of sync with the previously established Iron Man, but at least the story was coherent. The second one was also way worse than the first.

Ultimate Iron Man was worse. It wasn't just what it did to Tony as a character; it was just really poorly written. The bad art didn't help either, but I can't really blame the artist (Kubert? I can't remember).

I refuse to believe that a building in New York only had sleeper agents in it. That's unrealistic and silly. ESPECIALLY in a comic that focused on "realism". That's like saying no one died in the final act of Man of Steel.

Didn't it show them turning back into the Chitauri when they had been shot?

No it did not. You're thinking of Skrulls in the regular universe.

Yes it did, and I'm pretty sure it was established that the ENTIRE building was sleeper Chitauri agents.
 

Mattimeo84

Well-Known Member
Black Widow and Hawkeye are introduced by slaughtering not only bad guys but innocent people, and Nick Fury was just kind of there. Ugh.

Didn't it show them turning back into the Chitauri when they had been shot?

No it did not. You're thinking of Skrulls in the regular universe.

Yes it did, and I'm pretty sure it was established that the ENTIRE building was sleeper Chitauri agents.

Well sort of E
The Ultimates 8 - The Experts said:
They lose control of their Cameleonic hold after ninety eight minutes.

Also
The Ultimates 8 - The Experts said:
Five hundred and twenty-eight sleeper agents.
528 between two buildings? That seems really really low. Especially when Hawkeye is on the 38th floor and Black widow jumps across a street to land on the floor above him. Assuming she only lost a few floors due to gravity (but also assuming the cocktail on enhancements boost her strength), lets say she jumped from her 43rd floor.

Assuming an even average number of agents per floor amongst the two buildings, that leaves 6.5 sleeper agents per floor. Hardly possible that was the entire building, not even taking into account we see them taking out an incredible number of people.

I would be more apt to believe that they agents only had a couple of floors worth of real estate, but that is never mentioned, nor is that what is being stated by us.

TL;DR, I have to give the point to wyokid and say that they may have killed some innocent civilians.
 
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Captain Canuck

The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
I just finished reading that issue too and was going to say pretty much the same thing.

They also mentioned that back in WWII they nuked Japan to finish the chitauri off, so they have a history of taking extreme measures to kill them.
 

DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
Really? Worse than Ultimatum and the Ultimate Hulk annual and Ultimate Power?

No, you're right. I completely overlooked those. But can you blame me for trying to forget?

It was frustratingly out of sync with the previously established Iron Man, but at least the story was coherent. The second one was also way worse than the first.

I never said the story wasn't coherent, I was just mystified at the idiotic need to turn Tony into a superbeing. It'd being giving Batman super-strength or some other insanity. Part of the charm of Tony as a character is that he's a regular guy. Granted, he's a super genius, but it's his intelligence which allows him to hang with the big boys through the abilities of his suit. You add regenerative properties and it robs him of what makes him special or unique by making him just another super powered individual.

For me he wasn't lovable. For me he was a giant emotionally void ******* who didn't learn from his mistakes or care about anything but himself.

This is my biggest gripe with you is that you rely on oversimplifying things you don't agree with, completely missing the intent of those things. For example:

Everyone was just a giant prick under Millar. Cap was a xenophobic bully and a mockery of the original character,

Ultimate Cap was a pastiche of the old timey, slightly xenophobic attitude of Americans from the 1940's who were worried about German and Japanese spies due to WWII. It completely makes sense given he's from that era. His attitude and outlook isn't going to change overnight. I explained this to you before: flawed characters are far more interesting than the one dimensional do-gooder Boy Scout approach you seem to prefer. Flaws allow a character to grow and evolve and overcome those flaws.

Bruce was a whiney and emo horndog,

Actually, Bruce was whiney (as someone pushed around his whole life and the focal point for the Hulk's rage, it makes sense), Hulk was a horndog.

Thor was a massive Liberal hippie,

One of the better changes Millar made. Ult Thor was awesome and far more interesting back then than what he became: one dimensional bruiser who hits stuff with his hammer, as shown in the last few years of Ultimate appearances.

Betty was an emotionally manipulative *****,

Aren't all women? ;)

But again, Betty served as a way of directing the Hulk's rage. Perfectly apropos to the story and plot. Would you have preferred she stay the exact same as the 616 version? If so you're missing the point of the Ultimate universe.

Hank and Janet were fine until the issue with them just beating the hell out of each other,

Yes, because having super powers automatically makes the characters incapable of relationship problems and spousal abuse. Again, these are characters with super powers, but the same emotional frailties as regular people. Some regular folks are ticking time bombs who focus their anger, rage, depression, and lack of self confidence into physical abuse of those they supposedly love. That isn't condoning that behavior, it's acknowledging it's existence.

Black Widow and Hawkeye are introduced by slaughtering not only bad guys but innocent people,

Those were all Chitauri, as was established in the dialogue and shown in the artwork.

and Nick Fury was just kind of there. Ugh.

Right. He's only just there. And he happened to provide the influence for the MCU version which has become beloved by fans.

Is your problem not the power but that it goes against continuity? My belief is that continuity is there to serve a story and not the other way around. If Millar wanted to he could have squeezed it in.

It has nothing to do with continuity, it has to do with robbing the character of Tony Stark of what made him special: he's a regular human in a suit, albeit a super genius, he is physically just as vulnerable as anyone else when not in his armor. What Card did perverted the concept of Tony, and unnecessarily changed the character in an unnecessary and moronic way.

The idea was also inherently flawed. More brain matter (throughout the body) might have made him smarter, but that much brain matter would've made him a god. Also, apparently he's able to regenerate brain matter (something no one else can do) when his limbs are blown off. But even that doesn't make sense as the loss of the brain matter (even if it regrows) would presumably result in memory loss, or motor function loss, etc. He'd have to relearn some of his extensive knowledge any time he lost limb. That was never covered or addressed, because the entire idea was idiotic to begin with and half-assed by Card.

Why would Millar squeeze in an inherently flawed, unnecessary, and stupid change to a character largely adapted for the new universe? Screw that. I'm glad he retconned it and rightfully ridiculed it.

Instead he decided to not only make it a cartoon but then mock it. Regardless of how you feel about the story that's just not a cool thing to do.

Neither is completely altering the abilities and capabilities of a character created by other peoples work. If it had been a worthwhile retcon I wouldn't mind, but it wasn't. It was stupid. Millar called him on it.

I thought was a cool power (loved how his whole body was a brain) and it even got referenced in Ultimate Human.

That doesn't make it valid. Nor was it ever referenced again.

I LOVED the sex tape.

Yes, because drawing on the antics of Paris Hilton and Kim Kardashian is always a great approach to super hero comics.

In the first two volumes they were obsessed with PR and a sex tape with not only two members but the fact that one of them was a traitor was just juicy. Then it was revealed to be Ultron behind it and it got juicier. I also loved his relationship with Carol Danvers. Really wish Jeph Loeb could have been able to continue with that. I really wish the original plans for Ultimatum happened (was originally MUCH smaller before Bendis decided that it should be an event) because as much as I loved New Ultimates The Ultimates 4 with Ed McGuinness and an actual story arc for Zarda would have been epic. I will say that I did not enjoy the second one that much. Everyone just sort of devolved into psychopaths.

You and I will never see eye to eye, but it's fun pointing out the flaws in the approach of Loeb and Card.

Just going to say this: Hawkeye and Widow didn't kill any innocents. Everyone in both buildings were alien sleeper agents.

I refuse to believe that a building in New York only had sleeper agents in it. That's unrealistic and silly. ESPECIALLY in a comic that focused on "realism". That's like saying no one died in the final act of Man of Steel.

This whole comment is silly. The most unrealistic thing about the book is that sleeper Chitauri were able to keep regular humans out of their building using security measures? You have a very strange view of reality.

Well sort of E Also 528 between two buildings? That seems really really low. Especially when Hawkeye is on the 38th floor and Black widow jumps across a street to land on the floor above him. Assuming she only lost a few floors due to gravity (but also assuming the cocktail on enhancements boost her strength), lets say she jumped from her 43rd floor. Assuming an even average number of agents per floor amongst the two buildings, that leaves 6.5 sleeper agents per floor. Hardly possible that was the entire building, not even taking into account we see them taking out an incredible number of people. I would be more apt to believe that they agents only had a couple of floors worth of real estate, but that is never mentioned, nor is that what is being stated by us. TL;DR, I have to give the point to wyokid and say that they may have killed some innocent civilians.

You're assuming every room in the building was full, which is a poor assumption to make and not backed up by anything in the comics. It's entirely possible to assume the Chitauri sleeper agents congregated in only a few dozen rooms or floors, with the other rooms and floors being used for tech, weaponry, etc.

I just finished reading that issue too and was going to say pretty much the same thing. They also mentioned that back in WWII they nuked Japan to finish the chitauri off, so they have a history of taking extreme measures to kill them.

Given the habits of the Chitauri I don't blame them. That can easily be taken as a social commentary on the "acceptable" losses of innocent civilians in war.
 

Mattimeo84

Well-Known Member
Those were all Chitauri, as was established in the dialogue and shown in the artwork.
Just reread the issue. It never states that the entire building was Chitauri. In fact, the best it says is 528 sleeper agents.

You're assuming every room in the building was full, which is a poor assumption to make and not backed up by anything in the comics. It's entirely possible to assume the Chitauri sleeper agents congregated in only a few dozen rooms or floors, with the other rooms and floors being used for tech, weaponry, etc.
I alluded that based on the idea that the "entire building was Chitauri", that wasn't plausible.

BUT I also went on to say:
I would be more apt to believe that they agents only had a couple of floors worth of real estate, but that is never mentioned, nor is that what is being stated by us.

Just like you. I hope you noticed that as well.

TL;DR, I have to give the point to wyokid and say that they may have killed some innocent civilians.
Given the habits of the Chitauri I don't blame them. That can easily be taken as a social commentary on the "acceptable" losses of innocent civilians in war.

I am not for or against anyone here, I just think this Board is a little to quick to tear apart wyokid. I don't agree with any of his opinions, but that doesn't mean that he can't also be right here and there. Hawkeye and Black Widow and their shield teams probably did kill an inocent bystander. For the same reasons you surmised about the atomic attacks on Japan.
 
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DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
Just reread the issue. It never states that the entire building was Chitauri. In fact, the best it says is 528 sleeper agents. I alluded that based on the idea that the "entire building was Chitauri", that wasn't plausible. BUT I also went on to say: Just like you. I hope you noticed that as well. I am not for or against anyone here, I just think this Board is a little to quick to tear apart wyokid. I don't agree with any of his opinions, but that doesn't mean that he can't also be right here and there. Hawkeye and Black Widow and their shield teams probably did kill an inocent bystander. For the same reasons you surmised about the atomic attacks on Japan.

The point is it's never outright stated or shown there were innocent humans killed, so at best it's a presumption.

And I give wyo a lot of grief, and disagree with him on just about everything, but I do respect his opinion. I just like to argue against it using my own opinions and logic. That's kind of the point of message boards, especially comic related message boards. ;)

In fact wyo and I are currently engaged in an experiment. I recommended he read the new Valiant universe titles (of which he really only liked Shadowman), while he recommended I read IDW's Transformers continuity (which so far hasn't been good, but gets better about midway through the 200+ issues released so far). It's an experiment in attempting to understand each other's respective taste in comics.
 

DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
I liked Eternal Warrior, the first writer's run on Shadowman, Rai, and Bloodshot.

You liked Bloodshot? Huh, I thought you hated it. I enjoy it.

Also read more of the TF Spotlight issues, they're progressively getting better. I'm looking forward to the stuff that isn't written by Furman.
 

Zeek

Well-Known Member
I remember there was a time where I got into an argument with a friend of mine about 616 Tony VS Ultimate Tony, with me arguing for the latter. This was around the time of Civil War (and riiight before the first Iron Man movie), so it wasn't exactly hard to give Ultimate Tony the upper hand, but I do remember loving Ultimate Tony because he was just so jovial all the time. In fact, while I think Cap is the most nuanced member of the team, Tony is pretty easily its most likable (and I don't agree with the EVERYONE IS AN ***HOLE reading of The Ultimates, because it's just not true). Speaking of Cap...

DIrishB said:
Ultimate Cap was a pastiche of the old timey, slightly xenophobic attitude of Americans from the 1940's who were worried about German and Japanese spies due to WWII. It completely makes sense given he's from that era. His attitude and outlook isn't going to change overnight. I explained this to you before: flawed characters are far more interesting than the one dimensional do-gooder Boy Scout approach you seem to prefer. Flaws allow a character to grow and evolve and overcome those flaws.

I'd go further and suggest that he isn't xenophobic in the slightest. Nothing he does could be labeled as such, unless you count the France thing, which had a pretty specific context behind it (probably the only context that doesn't make it disrespectful and douchy). In fact, context is important for everything Ultimate Cap does, and is always ignored when people accuse him of being a bully or an ******* or whatever. I don't even mean "he's from a different time" context, I mean what's actually happening in the story. While I think the MCU has caused The Ultimates to feel more dated than ever, and while I have have pretty serious issues with how awful every single woman (save, like, Gail) is in it, there're a lot of layers and nuance there. A surprising number, considering Millar's usual stuff. I'd say it's his second-best work after Red Son.

wyokid said:
Hank and Janet were fine until the issue with them just beating the hell out of each other

Actually, no they weren't. Their relationship issues are referenced in their very first appearance together, and Hank's outburst is later given context by Betty in that diner scene.
 
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