What is better at revamping characters, the Ultimate Universe or Timm's DCUA?

[Pandrio]

comics and cartoons are two entirely different media. Viewers of cartoons are much more emerged in the cartoon than the readers of a comic are in a comic. When viewing a cartoon the audience is both seeing and hearing the cartoon, there is less strain on the imagination. A comic on the other hand needs a much more active reader, who needs to make te pictures move himself, who needs to hear what the characters are saying himself.
Because the cartoon is 'easier to read', the viewer is more emerged in the cartoon and more likely to accept what he is viewing. This is why the cartoon is most likely to come out as the winner.

Because of the differences between the two media, you can never compare them fairly. The viewers look at it differently and the creators have different techniques available.

more on this later, its bettime here, and robje is tired.
(im not entirely sure if i translated the term media to english properly... it might be mediums...)

I understand your point, but I think that you can compare the story of the two although they are from two different mediums. I guess the viewer could enjoy television easierly since the scenes don't have to be put into motion or the voice acting imagined, but because we're all comic fans here I don't think that applies. If someone does enjoy reading comics, then they would have to be the "more active reader" already, I'm not sure seeing it on TV would make a difference. However, since this is basically off-topic, I'll leave the thread now.

 

[Bass]

comics and cartoons are two entirely different media. Viewers of cartoons are much more emerged in the cartoon than the readers of a comic are in a comic. When viewing a cartoon the audience is both seeing and hearing the cartoon, there is less strain on the imagination. A comic on the other hand needs a much more active reader, who needs to make te pictures move himself, who needs to hear what the characters are saying himself.
Because the cartoon is 'easier to read', the viewer is more emerged in the cartoon and more likely to accept what he is viewing. This is why the cartoon is most likely to come out as the winner.

Because of the differences between the two media, you can never compare them fairly. The viewers look at it differently and the creators have different techniques available.

more on this later, its bettime here, and robje is tired.
(im not entirely sure if i translated the term media to english properly... it might be mediums...)

While this is all very intelligent and true - there are multiple differences between the two media (you were right) and how they are perceived by their audience - and while letting certain inaccuracies slide such as the cartoon being 'easier to read', you are missing the point somewhat.

The topic is not so much what tools and methods were used in revamping, it is not such much how characters are revamped, nor the devices used to do so, but which accomplished their goal more successfully, a goal both share.

For example - while the shotput and the 100meter dash are both sports events, they require extremely different training and different methods of participation. However, if one where to ask, "who is better at their event? The guy who got a gold in the shotput, or the guy who got the bronze in the 100m dash?" the answer is clearly the shotputter. The question is completely unconcerned with the actual elements of the sporting event that has been participated in, rather the result of the athlete's exertions as pertaining to their success within that event.

So, in this case, the question is not who did better with what tools - for example, the Ultimate comics are less likely to be cancelled than the DC cartoons, while the cartoons get more episodes per year than the comics, and the episodes are longer than their comic counterparts - but rather, the Ultimate universe reimagined several dozen Marvel character that have existed for decades. The Timmverse universe reimagined a similar number of DC characters which have also existed for decades. Regardless of the style in which they are presented, who did better with their treatment of the original subject matter?

It's not about how the story was told, but which story was more enjoyable to experience, which created a greater appreciation for the revamped character (either through glorification or parody or tragedy).

A major difference in revamping, inherent to the media, is that a single episode of the cartoon is about twice the length of a single comic. While this is, of course, an advantage for the cartoon, since they can spend more time developing characters than the comic, this point is actually completely inverted in this case: the Ultimate universe spends far longer on any single story they tell, than the average cartoon. 6-part arcs are normal for the Ultimate universe, and a 6-part arc would be a triple bill of episodes for the cartoons.

The only other thing would be to imply that one form of storytelling - say the cartoon - is inherently superior and capable of telling better stories than the comics and therefore it would be unfair to judge the two in comparison - which is of course, absurd.

So we're discussing the quality of the revamps, not the methods which are used, and therefore, comparison on that level is perfectly fair and reasonable.

At least, that is what I think.

 

[moonmaster]

DCUA.

Brainiac and Harley Quinn are primarily good examples of this.

I love S:TAS Brainiac.

 

[ProjectX2]

DCUA.

I love S:TAS Brainiac.

I love all animated Braniac.

"You cannot win, Last Son of Krypton."

 

[Pandrio]

While this is all very intelligent and true - there are multiple differences between the two media (you were right) and how they are perceived by their audience - and while letting certain inaccuracies slide such as the cartoon being 'easier to read', you are missing the point somewhat.

The topic is not so much what tools and methods were used in revamping, it is not such much how characters are revamped, nor the devices used to do so, but which accomplished their goal more successfully, a goal both share.

For example - while the shotput and the 100meter dash are both sports events, they require extremely different training and different methods of participation. However, if one where to ask, "who is better at their event? The guy who got a gold in the shotput, or the guy who got the bronze in the 100m dash?" the answer is clearly the shotputter. The question is completely unconcerned with the actual elements of the sporting event that has been participated in, rather the result of the athlete's exertions as pertaining to their success within that event.

So, in this case, the question is not who did better with what tools - for example, the Ultimate comics are less likely to be cancelled than the DC cartoons, while the cartoons get more episodes per year than the comics, and the episodes are longer than their comic counterparts - but rather, the Ultimate universe reimagined several dozen Marvel character that have existed for decades. The Timmverse universe reimagined a similar number of DC characters which have also existed for decades. Regardless of the style in which they are presented, who did better with their treatment of the original subject matter?

It's not about how the story was told, but which story was more enjoyable to experience, which created a greater appreciation for the revamped character (either through glorification or parody or tragedy).

A major difference in revamping, inherent to the media, is that a single episode of the cartoon is about twice the length of a single comic. While this is, of course, an advantage for the cartoon, since they can spend more time developing characters than the comic, this point is actually completely inverted in this case: the Ultimate universe spends far longer on any single story they tell, than the average cartoon. 6-part arcs are normal for the Ultimate universe, and a 6-part arc would be a triple bill of episodes for the cartoons.

The only other thing would be to imply that one form of storytelling - say the cartoon - is inherently superior and capable of telling better stories than the comics and therefore it would be unfair to judge the two in comparison - which is of course, absurd.

So we're discussing the quality of the revamps, not the methods which are used, and therefore, comparison on that level is perfectly fair and reasonable.

At least, that is what I think.

Dammit, I knew I should have just let Bass explain it.

 

[robje]

While this is all very intelligent and true - there are multiple differences between the two media (you were right) and how they are perceived by their audience - and while letting certain inaccuracies slide such as the cartoon being 'easier to read', you are missing the point somewhat.

The topic is not so much what tools and methods were used in revamping, it is not such much how characters are revamped, nor the devices used to do so, but which accomplished their goal more successfully, a goal both share.

For example - while the shotput and the 100meter dash are both sports events, they require extremely different training and different methods of participation. However, if one where to ask, "who is better at their event? The guy who got a gold in the shotput, or the guy who got the bronze in the 100m dash?" the answer is clearly the shotputter. The question is completely unconcerned with the actual elements of the sporting event that has been participated in, rather the result of the athlete's exertions as pertaining to their success within that event.

So, in this case, the question is not who did better with what tools - for example, the Ultimate comics are less likely to be cancelled than the DC cartoons, while the cartoons get more episodes per year than the comics, and the episodes are longer than their comic counterparts - but rather, the Ultimate universe reimagined several dozen Marvel character that have existed for decades. The Timmverse universe reimagined a similar number of DC characters which have also existed for decades. Regardless of the style in which they are presented, who did better with their treatment of the original subject matter?

It's not about how the story was told, but which story was more enjoyable to experience, which created a greater appreciation for the revamped character (either through glorification or parody or tragedy).

A major difference in revamping, inherent to the media, is that a single episode of the cartoon is about twice the length of a single comic. While this is, of course, an advantage for the cartoon, since they can spend more time developing characters than the comic, this point is actually completely inverted in this case: the Ultimate universe spends far longer on any single story they tell, than the average cartoon. 6-part arcs are normal for the Ultimate universe, and a 6-part arc would be a triple bill of episodes for the cartoons.

The only other thing would be to imply that one form of storytelling - say the cartoon - is inherently superior and capable of telling better stories than the comics and therefore it would be unfair to judge the two in comparison - which is of course, absurd.

So we're discussing the quality of the revamps, not the methods which are used, and therefore, comparison on that level is perfectly fair and reasonable.

At least, that is what I think.

very well.... you win this round Bass =D

 

[Bass]

I love all animated Braniac.

"You cannot win, Last Son of Krypton."

"No. I was not prepared for this battle."

*Lexiac flies ontop of Lexcorp towers, and a Giant Flying Brain Space Ship With Tentacles And Laser Eyes appears and starts destroying Metropolis*

"Now I am prepared."

very well.... you win this round Bass =D

 

[Hawkeye101]

Okay,I know you all know that I cring at certain DC characters *caugh*superman*caugh*. And I agree that 616 Marvel and the DC can get way out of hand in story plots and fail to work with continuity sometimes. But really, this is rediculous. You're comparing a children's show, with more child-like plots against a more mature and realistic and well-driven stories (most of them) and agree that the children's cartoon is better?

Answer this: Ultimates or Justice Leauge Unlimited? The Ultimates are the pinnacle of the UU, and the Justice Leauge Show seems to be the top of the DC cartoons. Answer this question and then try to convince me which universe is better.

 

[ProjectX2]

Okay,I know you all know that I cring at certain DC characters *caugh*superman*caugh*. And I agree that 616 Marvel and the DC can get way out of hand in story plots and fail to work with continuity sometimes. But really, this is rediculous. You're comparing a children's show, with more child-like plots against a more mature and realistic and well-driven stories (most of them) and agree that the children's cartoon is better?

Answer this: Ultimates or Justice Leauge Unlimited? The Ultimates are the pinnacle of the UU, and the Justice Leauge Show seems to be the top of the DC cartoons. Answer this question and then try to convince me which universe is better.

I love them both equally.

But then you compare JLU to a children's show. Sure, children may watch it. But have you seen the adult plots in this? In most episodes, there's hints to sex jokes, a whole heap of violence, and enough conspiracies to make you crap your pants.

And how many kids stay up until 10pm to watch the Flash pummel Luthor into a wall?

 

[ProjectX2]

Added a poll because this is going to get intense.

 

[Ultimate Deadpool]

The DCUA is just the regular DC universe, but with a different animation style. The only things that are different were "Batman Beyond", "Mr. Freeze", "Brainiac", and that Superman can't juggle planets... y'know, that I recall.

 

[The Overlord]

The DCUA is just the regular DC universe, but with a different animation style. The only things that are different were "Batman Beyond", "Mr. Freeze", "Brainiac", and that Superman can't juggle planets... y'know, that I recall.

On a concept level how different are USM and UXM to their 616 counterparts? Both are updated and modernized, but the concepts remain, which is exactly what DCUA did. That makes the comparsion valid. Only the Ultimates are different from their 616 counterparts on a concept level.

 

[The Overlord]

Okay,I know you all know that I cring at certain DC characters *caugh*superman*caugh*. And I agree that 616 Marvel and the DC can get way out of hand in story plots and fail to work with continuity sometimes. But really, this is rediculous. You're comparing a children's show, with more child-like plots against a more mature and realistic and well-driven stories (most of them) and agree that the children's cartoon is better?

Answer this: Ultimates or Justice Leauge Unlimited? The Ultimates are the pinnacle of the UU, and the Justice Leauge Show seems to be the top of the DC cartoons. Answer this question and then try to convince me which universe is better.

Saying that the DCUA is immature is just silly. Are you telling me that "Return of the Joker" was immature? I remember when a kid ODed in an episode of BTAS.

Also you can't just compare one section of the respective universe to another, you have to compare the whole of their respective universes. I think Timm has done a better job in BTAS at revamping Batman's rogues gallery than Bendis did with USM. BTAS Mr. Freeze and Mad Hatter are a billion times more interesting than their comic book characters. As for USM's B-list villains Shocker and Kraven are just big losers in the UU and Electro is more or less the same, he is a just thug with too much power and not enough brains in both universes.

 

[Bass]

Okay,I know you all know that I cring at certain DC characters *caugh*superman*caugh*. And I agree that 616 Marvel and the DC can get way out of hand in story plots and fail to work with continuity sometimes. But really, this is rediculous. You're comparing a children's show, with more child-like plots against a more mature and realistic and well-driven stories (most of them) and agree that the children's cartoon is better?

I'm pretty sure most people think that the Ultimates is for children too.

Plus, the audience, kids or no, for Justice League Unlimited is quite a bit bigger than the audience for the Ultimates. Kid show or not, JLU can throw down with Ultimates.

Also, if you look, the Timmverse seems more mature and realistic than the Ultimate universe. In fact, the Timmverse plays with a lot of the same themes within the ultimate universe - such as superheroes as weapons, the power of the superhero in political terms - and the Cadmus arc pulled off the "Ultimate Conspiracy" aspect of the Ultimate Universe - the conspiracy being something that we've been bull****ted with since day 12 of the ultimate universe. In fact, Cadmus discussed the entire concept of is it right for a human government to try to create a self-defence system against a rogue Justice League, and nearly created a superhuman arms race - the exact same thing the Ultimates is all about. It's a sad thing, but Justice League Unlimited handled their arms race far better than Hitllar.

And there's many mature themes. Okay - people can't die in the Timmverse - but then who dies in the Ultimate universe? The only reason Black Widow was the traitor is because she was expendable. No one cool is going to die in GTA, except maybe Giant Man because he's 'bad'. With the mandate that they don't show blood, I am continually surprised by how much the JLU got away with - especially the Luthor/Brainiac transformation which was ****ing horrific. And the stories, on average are far more mature. Jarvis was anything but mature. He read like Millar was a 13 year old kid who laughed when anyone said 'penis'. Bendis is hopelessly immature when it comes to ultimising villains, making them a loser or completely bat**** crazy. Whereas the Timmverse seems to treat the vast majority of its villains with a level of maturity not seen in the comics - with Batman having been particularly demonstrative of this with Harley Quinn, Two-Face, Mister Freeze, Mad Hatter, and Clayface. The Superman cartoon was very good at revamping Brainiac into something so much better, it's hard to believe Alex Ross and Jim Krueger kept Brainiac as the stupid green **** from Mars. The Justice League cartoon did an amazing treatment with Solomon Grundy in "Wake the Dead", and Gorilla Grodd - well, he's amazing. Who doesn't love Grodd?

Unless by mature you mean, "sexually explicit" and "violent", two things I find very immature.

Answer this: Ultimates or Justice Leauge Unlimited? The Ultimates are the pinnacle of the UU, and the Justice Leauge Show seems to be the top of the DC cartoons. Answer this question and then try to convince me which universe is better.

I'm picking Justice League Unlimited.

The first six issues of both Ultimates 1 and 2 are extremely good and just as good as the best of JLU. But Grand Theft America is balls.

I understand what you're saying, and its true, Ultimates, for the most part, and even the first two dozen issues of USM can quite capably be put side-by-side with the best of the Timmverse, and it'd be tough to pick a winner. If you compare the best to the best, it's hard to see which is better - but the Timmverse has more 'best' than the Ultimate universe, and it has never sunk so low as the Ultimate line currently has sunk too. And I've not yet seen Teen Titans.

I just think you're not getting Justice League Unlimited, or not watching it. I mean - "it's for kids" so it's not as good? Don't you read comics? That's how people think about comics for the most part, sadly. I reckon you should give the Timmverse another go.

I'd like to point out, that DC cartoons not in the Timmverse, such as the new cartoon 'The Batman' - are crap. I'm only talking about the Timmverse - the Batman and Superman shows of the 90s, Justice League and Justice League Unlimited, and when I've seen it - Teen Titans.

 

[thee great one]

I'm not sure Teen Titans is made by Trmm. It's not offically in the same universe but they hint at it.

 

[Bass]

According to tv.com, Bruce Timm is one of the executive producers on Teen Titans.

 

[Lynx]

Which shows are considered in the Timmverse? I know I've watched B:TAS, Batman Beyond, and a little bit of JLU and Teen Titans. Anything else?

 

[thee great one]

Batman
Superman
Batman Beyond
Justice League Unlimited
Teen Titans

 

[Lynx]

Batman
Superman
Batman Beyond
Justice League Unlimited
Teen Titans

Oh, ok. So I was just missing Superman. Thanks!

 

[Bass]

Justice League Unlimited was also called just "Justice League" for two seasons. It's quite interesting (at least I think so). Originally, "Justice League" had the tradition of opening and closing a season on a big 3-part episode, and each other story was a two-parter. So it was 3-parter, loads of 2-parters, then 3-parters. And each show focused on the big seven of the League - Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, Flash, Green Lantern, and Hawkgirl. Then, with Justice Leagues third season, it chanced into Justice League Unlimited which was just single episodes and what they'd do is take a couple from the big seven and pair 'em up with new characters who no one's heard of before, like Mister Miracle, Booster Gold, The Question, or what-have-you. So, Justice League Unlimited has finished its third/fifth season. Both are obviously Timmverse.