Women in comics

[TwilightEL]

Welcome to the new "Women in Comics" thread continued from the All About Comics Thread because I don't want to let it drop and neither does Wade and I also don't want to get banned!

TwilightEL is female. Mavericker is crazy Jesus man. And everyone else is trying not to like a pervert.

Lets face it; every girl I know who reads comics (all two of them) hate the way women are portrayed in every modern comics. You know why? Because they aren't very pretty, and they feel insecure while looking at drawings of Women with such voluptuous bodies. How do you think guys feel when reading Superman? Actually, not that jealous. I'm not one to speak, as I have unstoppable, rippling muscles, but rather than envy and loathing, it's usually a feeling of admiration. Every female in comics is unrealistically beautiful; over-sexed and with anatomy that puts most supermodels to shame. But what a men? Good, upstanding guys who fly around in tights (often as revealing as the outfits of many female characters) with perfect muscular structures. Even guys who shouldn't. Literally, every guy is ripped, the same way that every chick has a DD-bra size.

It's intimidating. To many it's offensive. You don't like the way that women are drawn in comics? Don't read them. Because I can't think of one flattering, ultra-feminist character who doesn't dress like a whore. Most of the comic market is male, and then want to see an unrealistically muscled Superman punch through walls while the Huntress runs around in her underwear. Don't like it? Stop reading comics. Write Marvel or DC an angry letter. Organize a group of like-minded feminists and wave some signs around. God knows that that sends across the right message.

Thing is; it's this way in every form of media. Every form. You watched any movies lately? You don't get to be a movie star unless you're attractive. You know why? Because no one wants to watch ugly people and be reminded of just how unattractive they are. It's the way the world works. Wonder Woman wouldn't sell if she was over weight. Or even if she dressed like a normal person. So Mavericker can call me a sinner...I don't care, I'm a Muslim who decided he was an Atheist at the age of 13. The word of Jesus doesn't mean much to me. I like pretty girls and I like badass men. I mean, you complain about how every girl is a slut, and even girls (like the new Question) who are strong and interesting characters, are lesbians, and naked in bed with other women all the time. Well, every guy has to be a super-cool, ultra-pimping Badass who's beating the hell out of criminals. Both the Superman and Batman archetypes present this.

Every girl I know watches Smallville. It's a ****ty show, and I watch it, simply because I want my Superhero fix on TV. Why do they watch it? Because Tom Welling is a good looking guy. Do I want to be reminded every day that I don't look like Tom Welling? Hell no. Do I want to drool over Erica Durance? Hell yeah.

I think I just got bingo! You're going to have to scroll down a bit. I'm done talking about this.

Okay, I lied. One last thing: Wade says that he/men don't envy/get upset at muscular superheroes, but then not only fallaciously assumes that I am/women are jealous of idealized females, he says I am/women jealous of their sexual features, not muscles.

This post makes no sense to me whatsoever. Type normally. You're making my brain hurt.

whats shes saying is that just cuz you think it might be offensive, might not mean that she finds it offensive.

I wasn't sure whether you were referring to men and women in general or me and you. Here's a more clear version:

Wade says that men don't envy muscular superheroes so women shouldn't be jealous, but then not only fallaciously assumes that women are jealous of idealized females, he says women are jealous of their sexual features, not muscles.

I refuse to discuss this in this thread as it will spiral out of control and I will probably get banned.

I didn't say anything was offensive. Just the opposite, actually. What I'm trying to say (and apparently, no one's listening) is that there are just as many guys gratuitously running around without shirts on as their are females. Just as much fanservice for gay guys as straight guys.

Nothing is offensive. Get over it, people. They're just drawings that make a story.

Apparently, you decided that the link was to a feminist rant site and you didn't have to read. I swear, this time I really mean it, I'm not discussing this further:

You're only jealous because you don't look like that.

1: How the **** would you know? You're on the internets.

2: The appearance of the critic makes no actual impact on the appearance of whatever they are critiquing. If the complaint is valid, it's valid, whether the commenter looks like Vampirella or the Creature from the Black Lagoon.

3: Insulting the (imagined) appearance of someone who disagrees with you instead of their actual argument is so low and moronic a tactic that it is generally abandoned by ten-year-olds when they hit puberty. Yes - sad but true - you are that boy on the playground responding to "It's my turn on the swing" with "YOU'RE UGLY AND YOU SMELL!" This is called an "ad hominem" argument. Ad hominem is Latin for "you don't actually have an argument, do you?"


So you want comics full of ugly fat chicks?

No. Most likely, your critic want comics full of women treated as realistically as men are, in the same manner, with as much variety in face and body type. Apparently, you find that threatening and have jumped to an exaggeration of their argument that also demonises fat and those who don't fit the cultural beauty standards. This says nothing flattering about you.


If you don't like them, don't read them!

This is one of those arguments that reasonable people often make, unable to see why feminist comics fans spend time and energy discussing and deploring sexism in superhero comics when there's just so darn much of it. Why not, the argument goes, simply stop reading? Give up comics altogether, or find alternatives to the superhero books that infuriate you so.

But that's not good enough. Most feminist fans hate sexism, but love superheroes. I know that there's something about costumed people beating the crap out of bad guys, invading alien armies and each other that makes my heart happy. If there are explosions, so much the better! And the fair number of books that get it right is evidence that it can be done.

But most importantly, your critic has every right to complain about sexism in comics because – crazy thought! – sexism is wrong, whether you think it's a waste of energy or not.

...

But men are drawn unrealistically too!

This is probably the bingo point that causes the most fuss. When otherwise enlightened persons use the argument and are consequently informed of their gaffe, they tend to respond, baffled, "But I'm RIGHT! They ARE!"

Yes! You are right! Nowhere but in comics or other carefully controlled media does one find such stunning physical specimens of manhood. Comic book guys often have symmetrical features, are well- (often over-) muscled and are generally good looking.

However, you don't find many of them striding along in bathing suits and high-heeled boots, wrenching their backs out as they hurl their hips around and thrust their tumescent, massive penises and firmly rounded butts at the reader.

Why? Because that would look ridiculous. So why isn't it ridiculous when it's done to female characters?

No one would deny that the average superhero team contains more attractive men than you would find walking down the street anywhere but Hollywood. But there is a substantial difference between the unrealistic portrayal of men and women that relies heavily on gendered stereotyping of what is attractive. Men must be strong! Women must be sexy!

So when you say "But men are drawn unrealistically too!", the bingo player reads "Men are drawn to look strong and handsome, and that's why you shouldn't complain about Frank Miller objectifying Vicki Vale's talking butt."

I did read it, TwilightEL, and since there's no point in typing out another long post about this, as you are not discussing it any further, I won't. And I still stand by my original point; Rather than having men in sexy positions, they're in dashing, heroic positions that no one could ever hope to match. Do people even read my posts, or just assume that I'm an idiot and don't have anything of real value to say?

And when I was writing about how attractive said females who read comics are, I wasn't talking about you. I think that's the one point that your crazy feminist site makes; you could be stunning, or you could be horribly obese. I don't really know. But I specifically mentioned the only two girls that I know who read comics.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JEALOUSY. I am complaining about how women are drawn with sexual features prominently featured! I'm complaining about how boobs come first and ***-kicking second! I'm complaining about unrealistically thin, yet big-boobed women! Not because I'm jealous or they hurt my self esteem, but because I want women who would logically be muscular to be muscular and I want them to be in poses people will actually strike while fighting monsters and supervillains! I DON'T CARE IF THEY'RE HOTTER THAN ME. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT WHETHER SUPERHEROES SHOULD BE DRAWN LESS SEXY OR HEROIC SO PEOPLE WON'T BE JEALOUS. I'M TALKING ABOUT SKINNY WOMEN WITH NO MUSCLES FLAUNTING THEIR BOOBS AND BUTT IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIGHT.

I was done with this thread and McCheese contributed to the discussion in General Comics:

Shocking.

YES YOU CAN!

Correct. It's rarely Tomboy so much as it is low-maintenence.

Nice. Haven't seen that before.

No. I think she wins this argument champ.

Or rather whoever wrote that won that arguement and she won vicariously.

I don't want to track down everything he was quoting, so look at his original post to find out what he's talking about. Sorry.

 

[Random]

That's way too much for me to read.

 

[McCheese]

Welcome to the new "Women in Comics" thread continued from the All About Comics Thread because I don't want to let it drop and neither does Wade and I also don't want to get banned!

If I didn't get banned for last night, you're good. Trust me.

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH JEALOUSY. I am complaining about how women are drawn with sexual features prominently featured! I'm complaining about how boobs come first and ***-kicking second! I'm complaining about unrealistically thin, yet big-boobed women! Not because I'm jealous or they hurt my self esteem, but because I want women who would logically be muscular to be muscular and I want them to be in poses people will actually strike while fighting monsters and supervillains! I DON'T CARE IF THEY'RE HOTTER THAN ME. I'M NOT TALKING ABOUT WHETHER SUPERHEROES SHOULD BE DRAWN LESS SEXY OR HEROIC SO PEOPLE WON'T BE JEALOUS. I'M TALKING ABOUT SKINNY WOMEN WITH NO MUSCLES FLAUNTING THEIR BOOBS AND BUTT IN THE MIDDLE OF A FIGHT.

I got that the first time you said it. It's a shame you have to repeat yourself.

I was done with this thread and McCheese contributed to the discussion in General Comics:



I don't want to track down everything he was quoting, so look at his original post to find out what he's talking about. Sorry.

No worries. I'll boil it down, Wade was wrong. His argument is nowhere near as strong as TwilightEL's or whoever wrote that feminist critique.

Speaking of, who wrote that bingo thing? Didn't see a name attached.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

Well at least no one's over reacting.

And why is everyone ignoring everything I've written? The street goes both ways. Guys posture and look masculine and women posture and look feminine. They wear costumes that show off their, albeit unrealistic, attributes. Honestly, if this bothers you so much, then I honestly don't understand how you can read comics. Comicbook artists are lonely fanboys and so are comicbook fans. Fanservice is fanservice. Could I live without it? Sure. Does it bother me? No.

And when did I say you were jealous of anyone? I specifically referred to people I know.

No worries. I'll boil it down, Wade was wrong. His argument is nowhere near as strong as TwilightEL's or whoever wrote that feminist critique.

Speaking of, who wrote that bingo thing? Didn't see a name attached.

So, wait...I'm wrong because I didn't spend as much time on my argument as someone who started a website about the subject?

 

[TwilightEL]

No worries. I'll boil it down, Wade was wrong. His argument is nowhere near as strong as TwilightEL's or whoever wrote that feminist critique.

Speaking of, who wrote that bingo thing? Didn't see a name attached.

I'd already linked to her earlier, which was why I didn't supply the name. Here's her site. The bingo card is somewhere on this page (sorry, her archive sucks).

Well at least no one's over reacting.

And why is everyone ignoring everything I've written? The street goes both ways. Guys posture and look masculine and women posture and look feminine. They wear costumes that show off their, albeit unrealistic, attributes. Honestly, if this bothers you so much, then I honestly don't understand how you can read comics. Comicbook artists are lonely fanboys and so are comicbook fans. Fanservice is fanservice. Could I live without it? Sure. Does it bother me? No.

And when did I say you were jealous of anyone? I specifically referred to people I know.

Every time I respond to you, you insist I didn't read what you wrote, and vice versa. Clearly, there's some kind of misunderstanding going on here, so let me reaffirm all my points:

Real people who fight a lot would develop muscles, but not to the extent that superheroes have them. This is fine. I don't care if superheroes, male or female, have idealized bodies or ridiculous muscles. I am not complaining about that. Nor am I complaining about females having large breasts or idealized butts or faces. I am complaining that women are drawn with idealized sexual features, but no muscles. I am complaining that female superheroes strike incredibly stupid-looking poses that no women would ever get into. This is bad art and it takes me out of the story. It also insults women because rather than being drawn as people and fighters, they're blow-up dolls for men (or lesbians) to ogle at.

I assumed you were saying I was jealous because that was the main point of your rebuttal. If it had nothing to do with me, why did you bring it up?

The bingo card feminist blog says more about the "comics creators are lonely" argument than I could and it says it better. I'm sure that while I edit this post to include my rebuttal, a bajillion other people have made posts, so I'll stop now.

Or apparently not, plus Wade edited his post, so more editing as to not double-post:

So, wait...I'm wrong because I didn't spend as much time on my argument as someone who started a website about the subject?

No, you're wrong because our arguments were better.

 

[Fuzzy Birds]

Whenever this argument comes up, I like to think about those female characters who are portrayed in a better, more respectable light, and without reliance on T&A to interest the reader. I'm thinking in particular of Peter Davids Fallen Angel/Lee and Alan Moores Promethea/Sophie Bangs, though I'm sure given time, I could think of more.*

While it's true that realistic, relatable characters like these are a distinct minority in the comics medium, it's hardly anything new. After all, we all know that 95% of all forms of escapist media simply pander to the brain-dead, unimaginative masses who can't get their heads around such complex issues as racial and sexual diversity. The only way to truly change these things for the better is to change the vast majority of the worlds outlook on life. That ain't gonna happen in my lifetime, if ever, so I'm content simply to focus on and appreciate those aspects of the comics medium that are somewhat more respectful of all genders and nationalities.

*EDIT; From a visual standpoint, She Hulk, from Slott and Bobillos 2005 onwards run, is a perfect example of how to do it right. There isn't much, if any of the typical female posturing seen in most books, and her body size and shape are very representative of her power level. She's a big, clumsy ditz, and is portrayed as such.

 

[Lil Brother]

So... we're all agreed super hero bodies are unrealistic then? '_'

I know I'm most definetly jealous of those freakin' hot guys with their muscular chests and ripped abs, in any case.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

Every time I respond to you, you insist I didn't read what you wrote, and vice versa. Clearly, there's some kind of misunderstanding going on here, so let me reaffirm all my points:

Real people who fight a lot would develop muscles, but not to the extent that superheroes have them. This is fine. I don't care if superheroes, male or female, have idealized bodies or ridiculous muscles. I am not complaining about that. Nor am I complaining about females having large breasts or idealized butts or faces. I am complaining that women are drawn with idealized sexual features, but no muscles. I am complaining that female superheroes strike incredibly stupid-looking poses that no women would ever get into. This is bad art and it takes me out of the story. It also insults women because rather than being drawn as people and fighters, they're blow-up dolls for men (or lesbians) to ogle at.

I assumed you were saying I was jealous because that was the main point of your rebuttal. If it had nothing to do with me, why did you bring it up?

The bingo card feminist blog says more about the "comics creators are lonely" argument than I could and it says it better. I'm sure that while I edit this post to include my rebuttal, a bajillion other people have made posts, so I'll stop now.

Or apparently not, plus Wade edited his post, so more editing as to not double-post:

And when I was talking about people being jealous, again, I refered specifically to two girls who I know. Why? Because they read comics.

And I'm not saying I like, or even condone this, but rather that the road goes two ways. It just doesn't bother me. But with everyone against me, I'm fighting a losing battle.

No, you're wrong because our arguments were better.

Right. I'll be sure to find a website that agrees with me and then just post links.

 

[McCheese]

So, wait...I'm wrong because I didn't spend as much time on my argument as someone who started a website about the subject?

Well that and you're wrong.

While you did state that it was girls you know who are jealous of the appearence of the female superheroes, if you didn't intend on including TwilightEL in that category then you didn't address her at all. So either your wrong because you lump all women to together or you're wrong because you never addressed the concerns of the person with whom you are arguing.

Also, the men look masculine, women look feminine thing isn't helping you. Why should a woman have to look sexy when womping some guys ***? Why don't men? Sure male comic book characters are built like Greek Gods, but they are always posed to look tough. Even when they're wearing spandex. Black Canary, as cited in the article, wears high heels into a fight and proceeds to fight in hand-to-hand combat. You're a martial artist. Would that be feesable and/or intimidating? Or would you laugh at her?

Why can't she dress like someone who is actually going to fight crime rather than dress like she is doing a fashion shoot. And why does every pose she take have to show of her ***, her ****, or both. You don't get many close ups of Superman's junk (thank the good lord), but Power Girls boobs are prominantly featured on 2 covers a month. There is a difference. You know it, so don't say there isn't.

I'd already linked to her earlier, which was why I didn't supply the name. Here's her site. The bingo card is somewhere on this page (sorry, her archive sucks).

Got ya. Thanks.

 

[TwilightEL]

Whenever this argument comes up, I like to think about those female characters who are portrayed in a better, more respectable light, and without reliance on T&A to interest the reader. I'm thinking in particular of Peter Davids Fallen Angel/Lee and Alan Moores Promethea/Sophie Bangs, though I'm sure given time, I could think of more.

While it's true that realistic, relatable characters like these are a distinct minority in the comics medium, it's hardly anything new. After all, we all know that 95% of all forms of escapist media simply pander to the brain-dead, unimaginative masses who can't get their heads around such complex issues as racial and sexual diversity. The only way to truly change these things for the better is to change the vast majority of the worlds outlook on life. That ain't gonna happen in my lifetime, if ever, so I'm content simply to focus on and appreciate those aspects of the comics medium that are somewhat more respectful of all genders and nationalities.

I am racking up the bingo points like crazy tonight! Disregard the last paragraph, I know you didn't mean it that way but I included it for completeness.

Comics are never going to change. You're wasting your time.

Goodness, how pessimistic! Your critic probably takes a more optimistic view – that things are bad, but can be changed; that social justice is possible and worth fighting for; that poor depictions and objectification of women can and should be combated, no matter the odds.

And hey, if she's wrong, is that any of your business? It's her time to waste.

Unless you mean that comics are never going to change, and you don't want them to, because you like the status quo right where it is. In that case, I cordially invite you to bite me.

I can't think of anything else to add without looking like I'm making the bull**** argument that "If you argue against me, you're arguing against the civil rights of women and minorities!"

And I'm not saying I like, or even condone this, but rather that the road goes two ways. It just doesn't bother me. But with everyone against me, I'm fighting a losing battle.

No, it doesn't. Guys aren't portrayed as having nothing to offer but their sexiness. Here, I found an example:

Are you ever going to see that? And if you did, I assure you I would be disgusted by it, complain and probably not buy whatever it was on.

And I realize there are a lot of great artists out there, but I'm referring to things like the cover of Mighty Avengers 3 and Ultimate Power 6 and the fact that they're considered acceptable.

Well that and you're wrong.

While you did state that it was girls you know who are jealous of the appearence of the female superheroes, if you didn't intend on including TwilightEL in that category then you didn't address her at all. So either your wrong because you lump all women to together or you're wrong because you never addressed the concerns of the person with whom you are arguing.

Also, the men look masculine, women look feminine thing isn't helping you. Why should a woman have to look sexy when womping some guys ***? Why don't men? Sure male comic book characters are built like Greek Gods, but they are always posed to look tough. Even when they're wearing spandex. Black Canary, as cited in the article, wears high heels into a fight and proceeds to fight in hand-to-hand combat. You're a martial artist. Would that be feesable and/or intimidating? Or would you laugh at her?

Why can't she dress like someone who is actually going to fight crime rather than dress like she is doing a fashion shoot. And why does every pose she take have to show of her ***, her ****, or both. You don't get many close ups of Superman's junk (thank the good lord), but Power Girls boobs are prominantly featured on 2 covers a month. There is a difference. You know it, so don't say there isn't.

Yeah, what he said. Great points, McCheese.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

Yeah, you're right. I didn't say these things didn't exist. I didn't even defend them. What I'm trying to say is that the street goes both ways.

You want to talk about annoying trends?? Ok, here's one. The compulsion that the female part of fandom has to make EVERY CHARACTER gay. Every single one. Type in "Dick Grayson" on google. You know what the second or third image is? A picture of him and Roy Harper, nude, making out on a bed. This is what's known as yaoi, and it is, in every way, just as offensive as the dire need of fanboys to see their favorite heroine's in skimpy outfits. What's with the sudden fad of making clearly heterosexual characters gay?

"BUT THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN MUCH IN COMICS LOL"

That's because, for the most part, mainstream comics are written by men. However, look at Japanese manga. There are a lot of "yaoi" comics. A lot. Mostly written by Women, I'd imagine. And if there were more women writing western comics, I'm sure this would be the case also.

Saying that Women are portrayed stupidly in comics in hypocritical. So are men. Everyones stupid, and we read them anyway.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

In the comic book, Leave it to Chance, there's women not portrayed as sexy, but strong.

And that's my contribution

 

[TwilightEL]

Yeah, you're right. I didn't say these things didn't exist. I didn't even defend them. What I'm trying to say is that the street goes both ways.

You want to talk about annoying trends?? Ok, here's one. The compulsion that the female part of fandom has to make EVERY CHARACTER gay. Every single one. Type in "Dick Grayson" on google. You know what the second or third image is? A picture of him and Roy Harper, nude, making out on a bed. This is what's known as yaoi, and it is, in every way, just as offensive as the dire need of fanboys to see their favorite heroine's in skimpy outfits. What's with the sudden fad of making clearly heterosexual characters gay?

"BUT THAT DOESN'T HAPPEN MUCH IN COMICS LOL"

That's because, for the most part, mainstream comics are written by men. However, look at Japanese manga. There are a lot of "yaoi" comics. A lot. Mostly written by Women, I'd imagine. And if there were more women writing western comics, I'm sure this would be the case also.

Saying that Women are portrayed stupidly in comics in hypocritical. So are men. Everyones stupid, and we read them anyway.

Yaoi is only stupid when it's canonically straight characters, frequently portrayed as gay because the fangirls think it would be hot. Otherwise, it's either gay porn or legitimate gay relationships. If previously straight characters were turned gay in an out-of-character fashion and drawn in sexually explicit ways in mainstream comics, I would complain loudly. I'm not even going to address your assertion that if women got into comics every comic would suddenly turn into an all-male gay orgy because it's among the stupidest things I've ever read in my entire life.

 

[McCheese]

Yeah, what he said. Great points, McCheese.

Just doin' my thing.



Who knew I had a feminist streak? Not me.

 

[TwilightEL]

As McCheese replied, I can, without editing, point out that this

I'm not even going to address your assertion that if women got into comics every comic would suddenly turn into an all-male gay orgy because it's among the stupidest things I've ever read in my entire life.

was a stupid thing to say. I apologize. Let me rephrase that: Wade says that if women started writing comics, there would be more yaoi. I'm not sure whether he means women would create gay characters, which is fine and dandy as long as not every single character is gay, or if they'd turn canonically straight characters gay, or if they'd write gay porn. I think he's being stupid when he assumes women would make every new character gay or make other characters gay.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

As McCheese replied, I can, without editing, point out that this was a stupid thing to say. I apologize. Let me rephrase that: Wade says that if women started writing comics, there would be more yaoi. I'm not sure whether he means women would create gay characters, which is fine and dandy as long as not every single character is gay, or if they'd turn canonically straight characters gay, or if they'd write gay porn. I think he's being stupid when he assumes women would make every new character gay or make other characters gay.

I don't have a problem with characters like Northstar or Billy and Ten in young Avengers. However, I do think that there would be more yaoi (I don't know what else to call it) just for the sake of there being yaoi.

I don't really like either end of the specturm; fanboys and fangirls getting what their dumb fanservice. I'll I'm trying to point out is that both ends of the spectrum exist. Somehow, that point got lost in all of paragraphs of meaninglessness.

 

[Planet-man]

I came, I read, I asserted that Twilight's right, Wade is wrong, and McCheese knocked it out of the park on the first page, I left.

For emphasis:

Also, the men look masculine, women look feminine thing isn't helping you. Why should a woman have to look sexy when womping some guys ***? Why don't men? Sure male comic book characters are built like Greek Gods, but they are always posed to look tough. Even when they're wearing spandex. Black Canary, as cited in the article, wears high heels into a fight and proceeds to fight in hand-to-hand combat. You're a martial artist. Would that be feesable and/or intimidating? Or would you laugh at her?

For double emphasis:

Why can't she dress like someone who is actually going to fight crime rather than dress like she is doing a fashion shoot. And why does every pose she take have to show of her ***, her ****, or both. You don't get many close ups of Superman's junk (thank the good lord), but Power Girls boobs are prominantly featured on 2 covers a month. There is a difference. You know it, so don't say there isn't.

 

[Gideon Stargrave]

I came, I read, I asserted that Twilight's right, Wade is wrong, and McCheese knocked it out of the park on the first page, I left.

I really wish people would read my posts before proclaiming me to be "wrong". All that I was trying to say was that while I do see that women are made into sex-objects in comics, men are treated much the same, though in a slightly different way.

I've said that several times.

 

[Planet-man]

I really wish people would read my posts before proclaiming me to be "wrong". All that I was trying to say was that while I do see that women are made into sex-objects in comics, men are treated much the same, though in a slightly different way.

I've said that several times.

I did read your posts, and I get what you just said, and I proclaim that you're wrong.

And by the way... "you disagree... you must not have read my posts"? Worst debate tactic ever.

 

[Ultimate Quicksilver]

I kinda understand what Wade is trying to say, but I have to agree with Twilight El.


And more women in comic wouldn't mean more gay characters. We have Winnick for that.