Yaoi/Yuri Rant

[Jaggyd]

Okay, I just needed to vent, because well....stupidity annoys me. I'm obviously a fan of shoujo-ai/yuri manga and anime. Recently, on a fansubbing message board, I was called to task because I liked a certain anime/manga (Strawberry Panic) over a similar one (Marimite). All these guys and girls did was rant that it wasn't *real* shoujo-ai because it ran in a seinen magazine (Seinen being manga aimed at men ages 18-35). Even though, the author is a gay woman.


These people went on and on about the evils of girls making love (off camera) or being nude (there are a couple scenes set in a bath), how it lessened the meaning of the relationships (as if lesbians don't have sex....riiiight).


But the best part...these girls giving me crap, are the same ones writing/drawing yaoi fanfic/art. I mean one has a thread, and is proud of her series of Naruto/Sasuke fics. I saw this and that vein in my forehead started throbbing.


God I hate hypocrits.

 

[ourchair]

All these guys and girls did was rant that it wasn't *real* shoujo-ai because it ran in a seinen magazine (Seinen being manga aimed at men ages 18-35). Even though, the author is a gay woman.

Sigh...

MORONS.

One of the many reasons I stopped discussing anime and manga to most Anglophones.

In their attempts to understand a foreign media culture, they insist on clear-cut categories and definitions.

"It's not shoujo-ai because it's in a seinen magazine!"

"It has adventure and camarederie so it must be shounen!"

"It's clearly moe!"

I'm convinced that most Anglophonic manga/anime fans are even more narrow-minded and formula-demanding than fans from TV, comics or movies.

I mean half the blogs just read kind of funny that way.

 

[Jaggyd]

Sigh...

MORONS.

One of the many reasons I stopped discussing anime and manga to most Anglophones.

In their attempts to understand a foreign media culture, they insist on clear-cut categories and definitions.

"It's not shoujo-ai because it's in a seinen magazine!"

"It has adventure and camarederie so it must be shounen!"

"It's clearly moe!"

I'm convinced that most Anglophonic manga/anime fans are even more narrow-minded and formula-demanding than fans from TV, comics or movies.

I mean half the blogs just read kind of funny that way.

I called Erica Friedman (founder of Yuricon) out on that mindset recently on her blog. I mean, with that mindset, that's like saying "You're not allowed to be a lesbian who enjoys Playboy, because it clearly states it's a "Magazine for Men" on the cover!!one11" better analogy; "Batwoman and Renee can't be *real* lesbians because they're in a superhero book, so it's only for shock value/fan service!"


I mean seriously, I love american superhero comics, but god forbid I say that out loud in my Japanese class or all the 18 year olds will scream, "Nee-sama!! Ur s'posed to read Josei manga!!!".

-.-

 

[Void.M]

Anglophones?

 

[ourchair]

I called Erica Friedman (founder of Yuricon) out on that mindset recently on her blog. I mean, with that mindset, that's like saying "You're not allowed to be a lesbian who enjoys Playboy, because it clearly states it's a "Magazine for Men" on the cover!!one11" better analogy; "Batwoman and Renee can't be *real* lesbians because they're in a superhero book, so it's only for shock value/fan service!"


I mean seriously, I love american superhero comics, but god forbid I say that out loud in my Japanese class or all the 18 year olds will scream, "Nee-sama!! Ur s'posed to read Josei manga!!!".

-.-

And of course, everyone ignores a quasi/proto academic fluffery pet theory of mine that 'attempts to explain' the broad market appeal of Fullmetal Alchemist by suggesting it is 'anti-shounen' is nonsense no matter what reasons I give.

I think part of the problem might be because Japanese media seems to be more clear-cut about where they demarcate the spaces between their target markets. Shoujo, seinen, josei, shoujo, etc. The TV programmes and comics have boundaries I would think, are arguably more defined and rigid than even American comics (!).

I mean, observe the fact that although mainstream American comics stake most of their commerce on the superhero. Regardless, almost every permutation of genre that exists in film and TV also exists in mainstream comics, it just happens to be filtered through the lens of the superhero.

We have crime procedurals (Gotham Central), mystery-hunting journalism (Deadline), teen romance (Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane), slice-of-life dramedy (Common Grounds), existential horror The Coffin), and bleak historical period dramas (Battle Hymn & The American Way).

All highly successful genres from other media, transmuted through superhero coating.

 

[Jaggyd]

Anglophones?

English speakers (it's usually a catch all for Americans, Canadians and Brits)

 

[ourchair]

Anglophones?

Get a dictionary.

 

[Jaggyd]

And of course, everyone ignores a quasi/proto academic fluffery pet theory of mine that 'attempts to explain' the broad market appeal of Fullmetal Alchemist by suggesting it is 'anti-shounen' is nonsense no matter what reasons I give.

I think part of the problem might be because Japanese media seems to be more clear-cut about where they demarcate the spaces between their target markets. Shoujo, seinen, josei, shoujo, etc. The TV programmes and comics have boundaries I would think, are arguably more defined and rigid than even American comics (!).

I mean, observe the fact that although mainstream American comics stake most of their commerce on the superhero. Regardless, almost every permutation of genre that exists in film and TV also exists in mainstream comics, it just happens to be filtered through the lens of the superhero.

We have crime procedurals (Gotham Central), mystery-hunting journalism (Deadline), teen romance (Spider-Man Loves Mary Jane), slice-of-life dramedy (Common Grounds), existential horror The Coffin), and bleak historical period dramas (Battle Hymn & The American Way).

All highly successful genres from other media, transmuted through superhero coating.

Well that's the thing that gets me, even though there are the more clearly titled demographic groups in japanese comics, it doesn't mean that's the only people in said market. I mean, I spent a few weeks in Japan (and am going again this fall), and I went to manga shops, and I wasn't the only female leafing through shonen/seinen books. Hell, one of the girls I was with, who's a native, she's a lesbian who reads almost entirely seinen books (granted she's very much a tachi tomboy).


It just irritates me when these 15 - 16 year old girls who thinks just kissing another girl at a con makes them "bi", or that lesbians NEVER sleep together, and that lesbian sex is only a fan service product.

 

[ourchair]

Well that's the thing that gets me, even though there are the more clearly titled demographic groups in japanese comics, it doesn't mean that's the only people in said market.

Exactly.

I believe the titling is a matter of function, not a matter of reality and even the Japanese acknowledge that... but most Anglophones DON'T.

(I think being Asian but primarily Anglophonic helps me understand the spaces and differences between those mindsets.)

Hell, one of the girls I was with, who's a native, she's a lesbian who reads almost entirely seinen books (granted she's very much a tachi tomboy).

Indeed.

People forget that demographic categories are useful but they do not and CANNOT cover the broad range of the entirety of tastes of everything. Shoujo, seinen, et al. are --- for the most part --- are merely distinctions made between gender and age and are labels applied to tastes consider normative for each group.

Fairly often we see people stray from normative taste parameters. I think we all do. To refuse to believe this is to refuse to believe that there's no such thing as a suburban housewife who watches The Shield.

It just irritates me when these 15 - 16 year old girls who thinks just kissing another girl at a con makes them "bi", or that lesbians NEVER sleep together, and that lesbian sex is only a fan service product.

You mean lesbian sex is REAL? :shock: :drooling: :crazy:

 

[Jaggyd]

Exactly.

I believe the titling is a matter of function, not a matter of reality and even the Japanese acknowledge that... but most Anglophones DON'T.

(I think being Asian but primarily Anglophonic helps me understand the spaces and differences between those mindsets.)

Honestly, it, to me, seems like it's just another one of those Japanese efficiency things. It's easier to stock, and supply when you can do demographic groups.

Indeed.

People forget that demographic categories are useful but they do not and CANNOT cover the broad range of the entirety of tastes of everything. Shoujo, seinen, et al. are --- for the most part --- are merely distinctions made between gender and age and are labels applied to tastes consider normative for each group.

Fairly often we see people stray from normative taste parameters. I think we all do. To refuse to believe this is to refuse to believe that there's no such thing as a suburban housewife who watches The Shield.

Again, totally agreed, I mean my mom is a 54 year old woman who enjoys everything from; Law & Order and other crime shows to Heroes and Sarah Conner Chronicles. Honestly, she watched nothing that's aimed at her demographic.

You mean lesbian sex is REAL? :shock: :drooling: :crazy:

-.- No, it's a lie perpetrated by Larry Flynt

 

[Lynx]

Honestly, skotti, the best course of action is to ignore that sort of behavior. Personally, I'm not well-versed in what is and is not shoujo-ai, but when you deal with people that are that nitpicky about what is and is not in a certain genre that you enjoy. . .well, honestly, it's pretty ridiculous.

Walk away knowing you know what you're talking about and let them live with being ignorant.

 

[Jaggyd]

Honestly, skotti, the best course of action is to ignore that sort of behavior. Personally, I'm not well-versed in what is and is not shoujo-ai, but when you deal with people that are that nitpicky about what is and is not in a certain genre that you enjoy. . .well, honestly, it's pretty ridiculous.

Walk away knowing you know what you're talking about and let them live with being ignorant.

Oh I know, it's just one of those things that pervades the american/canadian otaku community. I made my point on the message board, and I'm done with it, now with some people, I will take my argument further in hopes of changing their mind. Case in point, the head of Yuri-Con, she needs to be less close minded, so my arguments with her continue.

 

[Lynx]

Oh I know, it's just one of those things that pervades the american/canadian otaku community.

Oh, don't I know. And Lord, is it horrible when you go to an Anime convention, especially here in Florida. Otakus, especially ones under the age of 20, can be very, very frightening people. If it weren't for the amazing parties and the fact that I know a lot of the con directors, I would have stopped going a long, long time ago. Hell, I would have cut myself completely from the community, especially since I'm pretty much only reading One Piece nowadays.

I made my point on the message board, and I'm done with it, now with some people, I will take my argument further in hopes of changing their mind. Case in point, the head of Yuri-Con, she needs to be less close minded, so my arguments with her continue.

I understand that. Just don't let it infuriate you too much. Otherwise, you'll be giving yourself a headache over something that isn't worth your time.

 

[ourchair]

Honestly, it, to me, seems like it's just another one of those Japanese efficiency things. It's easier to stock, and supply when you can do demographic groups.

Efficiency is a credible enough reason for that, but I don't chalk that up as a cultural difference. It's not like book stores and publishers don't wrestle with stock and supply issues such as whether Piers Anthony goes into humour or fantasy.

I don't like to 'other'ize Asian cultures --- Japanese or otherwise --- but I suspect the real cultural difference might be because literacy is so strong in the country --- to the point that television could be regarded as the poor man's manga --- there's a greater pressure on bookstores and publishers to make age and gender-based demarcations on what to read.

Simply put, reading is more habituated in Japanese media consumption patterns, and therefore the casual reading market is stronger and larger. The habit is facilitated by having stores stocked in such a manner as to say, "Hey you're a 40 year old woman, so you're going to this side of the store, right?"

-.- No, it's a lie perpetrated by Larry Flynt

Damn you, Flynt!

Oh I know, it's just one of those things that pervades the american/canadian otaku community.

I agree, and hesitate saying it out loud because I feel like I'm discriminating against "Those Western people who just don't understand Asia".

 

[Jaggyd]

Oh, don't I know. And Lord, is it horrible when you go to an Anime convention, especially here in Florida. Otakus, especially ones under the age of 20, can be very, very frightening people. If it weren't for the amazing parties and the fact that I know a lot of the con directors, I would have stopped going a long, long time ago. Hell, I would have cut myself completely from the community, especially since I'm pretty much only reading One Piece nowadays.

What really amuses me, is when I get the "oh, I'm a real fan...I was a fan before it got popular" from a 20 year old. It's like "....nani??". I mean, I was watching anime before they were born, y'know, back when it was called japanimation, or....cartoons.


I love retards.

Efficiency is a credible enough reason for that, but I don't chalk that up as a cultural difference. It's not like book stores and publishers don't wrestle with stock and supply issues such as whether Piers Anthony goes into humour or fantasy.

I don't like to 'other'ize Asian cultures --- Japanese or otherwise --- but I suspect the real cultural difference might be because literacy is so strong in the country --- to the point that television could be regarded as the poor man's manga --- there's a greater pressure on bookstores and publishers to make age and gender-based demarcations on what to read.

Simply put, reading is more habituated in Japanese media consumption patterns, and therefore the casual reading market is stronger and larger. The habit is facilitated by having stores stocked in such a manner as to say, "Hey you're a 40 year old woman, so you're going to this side of the store, right?"

Damn you, Flynt!

I agree, and hesitate saying it out loud because I feel like I'm discriminating against "Those Western people who just don't understand Asia".

Oh I totally understand, it's just that weird american thing where guys aren't supposed to like romance novels/movies, and girls aren't supposed to like action/horror. I guess that's more of the base of my irritation, than anything else. You should enjoy what you like, and people shouldn't complain or dictate what you should enjoy.

 

[Iceshadow]

Blargh, it's not worth your time to argue with people who care about genre that much (unless your intentionally baiting them, which can be fun).

I remember that ourchair once linked a guy that teaches in Japan, and I remember that he had some interesting things to say about yuri manga, and lesbians in Japan, and whatnot.
(the article that was linked was about why don't manga characters "look Asian")

Oh, don't I know. And Lord, is it horrible when you go to an Anime convention, especially here in Florida. Otakus, especially ones under the age of 20, can be very, very frightening people. If it weren't for the amazing parties and the fact that I know a lot of the con directors, I would have stopped going a long, long time ago.

I hate otakus, they make me want to kill puppies. And I love puppies.

 

[Jaggyd]

Blargh, it's not worth your time to argue with people who care about genre that much (unless your intentionally baiting them, which can be fun).

I remember that ourchair once linked a guy that teaches in Japan, and I remember that he had some interesting things to say about yuri manga, and lesbians in Japan, and whatnot.
(the article that was linked was about why don't manga characters "look Asian")



I hate otakus, they make me want to kill puppies. And I love puppies.

Honestly, I've never felt more welcome anywhere than when I visited Japan. I mean I'm a 1.85 meter tall, pasty, white chick of Scottish descent who loves other girls, in my own ****ing country, I have been FIRED for being gay. Over there, it was like every school girl had to come up and talk to me (I almost felt like a dykish ourchair), squeal and call me "Onee-sama". I don't know about Japan as a whole, but they treated me like a person first, and my sexuality was a non-point.

 

[Hibiki]

You know I think I can relate. On my break one day, I was reading Alias. This other girl comes up to me and, seeming interested, ask me what I'm reading. I showed her the cover and explained to her the situation. about a former superhero....she stops me right in my sentence and goes off on how superhero comics are so dumb. I told her that it was her opinion but that this comic didn't exactly focus on the aspect. I told her abou the dialog and the shadiness and all that good stuff . Then she started talking down to me and said a real girl reads Fables. A real panzy maybe, i told her.

For the record, I've tried and don't like the book personally. Not knocking it before any of you decide to go off the wall on me.

So yeah, she keeps talking and I stop her. I show her Scalped. And she has the audacity to say, OHhhh, and Indian Superhero?! How original. For spoilers sake, i just showed her the last few pages, and said, does that look like a ****ing superhero? what a ho. I didn't even know the girl up to that point. how can you talk to me like that?

Anyway, I started toning it down and told, it's not a bad book, ALias is about an ex hero now a PI in finance and love issues trying to make something of herself as she gets depressed. Then she stumbles upon a video that changes her daily grind. Then I tried to justify my knowledge in comics to be greater than hers by telling her about DMZ, Watchmen, Fell and a few other of my faves. She heard of zero of them. NO respect i tell you. She just didn't want to hear it, because none of them stacked up to Fables.

I swear, some people have such a narrow perspective, it wants to make me kill them.

 

[Iceshadow]

Honestly, I've never felt more welcome anywhere than when I visited Japan. I mean I'm a 1.85 meter tall, pasty, white chick of Scottish descent who loves other girls, in my own ****ing country, I have been FIRED for being gay. Over there, it was like every school girl had to come up and talk to me (I almost felt like a dykish ourchair), squeal and call me "Onee-sama". I don't know about Japan as a whole, but they treated me like a person first, and my sexuality was a non-point.

That's pretty cool (well not the firing part), did you talk to them in Japanese? And damn you for using meters, now I have to get my calculator out.

 

[ourchair]

Over there, it was like every school girl had to come up and talk to me (I almost felt like a dykish ourchair), squeal and call me "Onee-sama".

I love it when I'm a metaphor.

On a semi-related note, let me know what you think of my relatively abandoned animanga smartypantsn commentary blog, at http://bentophysics.wordpress.com