616 Spidey vs Ultimate Spidey

comic_geek21

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I'm really tired of the whole '616 is the classic Universe, so it's better than the NEW Ultimate Universe, Ultimate Universe sucks! I wanted to settle this once and for all.

Has anyone taken a moment to see the sad state that 616 is in right now? The Clone Saga was the foundation for the grave. I still never got over that mess of a Saga, Norman shoulda stayed dead. And I think the final nail in the coffin for me was when Eddie sold the Symbiote on Ebay. ON FRICKIN EBAY??!!!!!!!!! C'mon!! And to top it all off, they introduce some completely horrible stories, they give Peter organic web shooters, and they make Scorpion the new Venom. Boooo!! And need I remind anyone of the Maximum Carnage arc? Double Boooo!!

That's why I've jumped ship to Ultimate U. I'll always have fond memories of the glory 616 used to have before horrible story arcs and meaningless villain tampering ruined it. The Ultimate Universe is different, but it reminds me of what 616 used to be, young, strong, and with plenty of new stories to tell.


So now you all know how I feel. From buying Symbiotes on Ebay, (ugh) to horrible arcs that go way to long, to just bad story telling period, 616 needs to just crawl off and die. If it weren't for books like New Avengers, which is written by USM writer Brian Michael Bendis by the way, I would never look at 616 again. In the meantime, I am having a blast reading about Ultimate Doc Ock, a much more terrifying Green Goblin, and playing an awsome Ultimate based game that firmly establishes Ultimate Venom as a top tier villain. Face it guys, the Ultimate Universe is here to stay, so just do what I did and jump on board, I promise it'll be worth it.


And just in case some people are to lazy to read all this,

Ultimate Universe >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 616 Universe

Just how I feel.
 

Ultimate Deadpool

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Comic Geek; I agree with you for the concept, But not the fanatic layout.

The 616 Spider-Man comics are starting to turn me away.

Even though I thought Ben Reilly was awesome, The clone saga was drawn out far longer than it had to be.

Spider-Man now has organis web-shooters... I could deal with that. I always thought "Why Not?". Though I do know that it adds to story possibilities.

Aunt May never died... That sucks. That was such a momentous occasion in Spider-Man's life. The only person keeping Spidey's feet on solid ground after Uncle Ben died, It was really a coming of age for Spidey. He had to start taking his own advice and worry more about himself. And that she knew he was Spider-Man and how proud she was? That was the tear jerker.

Though about Aunt May, You know what sucks more?
Her really being Spidey's mom.
I was like "WTF???!!" And not in a good way like at the end of "Sixth Sense", The bad way like after I just got done watching "Resident Evil: Apocalypse".

Norman Osborn never died? That sucks too... But not as much as Aunt May being alive. The stories leading to Norman's death were strong, Solid stories. The tension was building between them from day 1. The bridge where both Gwen stacy and Green Goblin died should have been Norman's last stand!

Spidey can telepathically talk to bugs now? Umm... Spiders, Maybe... But, I don't know.

All in all, Spidey has been a buzzkill for the last 20 years. Ultimate Spider-Man is a new beginning of the Spider-Man comics. Young, Full of life... And problems, But he still has the sense of humor that made Spidey great. Also, Ultimate Aunt May is a total M.I.L.F.
 
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Nurhachi

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Maximum Carnage and Millars MK spiderman were awesome :D

And when Norman Osborn came back from the grave? Genius!
 

Bass

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Ultimate Deadpool said:
Even though I thought Ben Reilly was awesome, The clone saga was drawn out far longer than it had to be.

Wasn't this 15 years ago now? How is JMS' run on Amazing Spider-Man affected by the Clone Saga? That's like writing off Supreme Power because you didn't like Squadron Supreme.

Ultimate Deadpool said:
Spider-Man now has organis web-shooters... I could deal with that. I always thought "Why Not?". Though I do know that it adds to story possibilities.

He DOES?! I read Amazing Spider-Man, and it's never brought up. I read Millar's Marvel Knights Spider-Man and he had web-shooters in that. Did I miss something?

Ultimate Deadpool said:
Aunt May never died... That sucks. That was such a momentous occasion in Spider-Man's life. The only person keeping Spidey's feet on solid ground after Uncle Ben died, It was really a coming of age for Spidey. He had to start taking his own advice and worry more about himself. And that she knew he was Spider-Man and how proud she was? That was the tear jerker.

Without Aunt May, it just isn't Spidey. Not that it mattered because when they killed May off they were planning on getting rid of Peter Parker too, so it didn't matter.

'Sides, why aren't you complaining that MJ still alive? She's died countless times. (Okay... maybe once.)


Ultimate Deadpool said:
Though about Aunt May, You know what sucks more?
Her really being Spidey's mom.
I was like "WTF???!!" And not in a good way like at the end of "Sixth Sense", The bad way like after I just got done watching "Resident Evil: Apocalypse".

No she's not. That was "Trouble" which was supposed to be canon but because it didn't do well at all, they dropped it then and there. She is AUNT May.

Ultimate Deadpool said:
Norman Osborn never died? That sucks too... But not as much as Aunt May being alive. The stories leading to Norman's death were strong, Solid stories. The tension was building between them from day 1. The bridge where both Gwen stacy and Green Goblin died should have been Norman's last stand!

I agree. Norman should be dead dead dead. Unlike May, who when she died left a whole in the supporting cast, and since she has returned has ADDED to the series
such as the aftermath of JMS' Morlun arc
all Norman has done since he came back is throw pumpkin bombs and twirl his moustache and take MJ up to the bridge, throw her off and never kill her again and again. He's a one-hit wonder whom every writer loves SPECIFICALLY because he killed Gwen AND DIED. They bring him back to tell the EXACT SAME STORY again and again. It's pathetic.

Ultimate Deadpool said:
Spidey can telepathically talk to bugs now? Umm... Spiders, Maybe... But, I don't know.

He can't talk to bugs - but he does have some kind of hive-like connection to spiders. He can't talk to them, he can't communicate with them, but they seem to have a more mystical connection than previously seen, an unspoken affinity. It's not like Ant Man and ants though. It's okay at the moment, but it could go too far - though I doubt it will.

Ultimate Deadpool said:
All in all, Spidey has been a buzzkill for the last 20 years. Ultimate Spider-Man is a new beginning of the Spider-Man comics. Young, Full of life... And problems, But he still has the sense of humor that made Spidey great. Also, Ultimate Aunt May is a total M.I.L.F.

JMS' run on Amazing Spider-Man was top-notch, its hit a few bumps here and there, and is currently in a little bump (we'll see how The Other: Evolve or Die plays out) but it's been okay.

Ultimate Spider-Man was absolutely brilliant - for 25 issues. Then it got better than average. Until the Geldoff arc, where it became mind-numblingly mediocre. It perked up for the first two issues of "Men of Influence" then sunk even further to a point where I dropped the title because it's so unbelievably bad. He's not young or full of life, nor does he have a sense of humour. Or rather he does for a page and the rest of the issue is him *****ing and whining about how things are his fault even though they just aren't in any way. God I hate Ultimate Spider-Man. If he's not *****ing and whining and complaining, then he's having a dull, pointless fight, or doing absolutely nothing. Blech.

Amazing Spidey's better - not by a lot, mind you. I'm getting bored of it. But only a little better.

I miss the times when I loved Spider-Man comics.

Right now, I'm pining for a terrific Spider-Man title. Or a Batman one. Or Superman. Any of those guys. This is why I'm so excited to see All-Star Superman.
 

Hawkeye101

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At one point, wasn't Marvel going to do away with 616 and use Ultimate Marvel as mainstream Marvel?
 

Caduceus

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Hawkeye101 said:
At one point, wasn't Marvel going to do away with 616 and use Ultimate Marvel as mainstream Marvel?
Kill off all those titles? Stop making so much money off them? I can't see it happening.
 

GMaster

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Bass said:
As Millar said, "It's genius. This way they get to sell every title twice."
Lmao, cmon Bass, you know better than that. They sell Spider-Man in 616 like a gaztrillion times. So yea. They get to sell everything a gaztrillion and one times. and make like a gaztrillion gazbillion dollars.
 

Ultxon

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I've actually done some deep anyalis on this. And here's whats going through my head.

616 flucuates on its audience. In the 60's comics were simple, kid-oriented fluff. Colorful, and battle per issue were a major part of that era. Because of the great stories and memorable characters many children grew into their teens still loving these characters. The 70s were really fan-fiction, exit Stan and the crew and enter these young fanboys and artists who took these ridicicouls characters seriously. The 70's brought a darker tone as writers made their characters more teen-oriented as opposed kid-oritned. Characters like Wolverine and Punisher crept into a scene which had consisted of bloodless fights and chessy dialogue. But the killer is the keeping of the history. These serious stories kept all these simple colorful stories as part of their continuity which made for very skewed stories. It reached a pinacle when Millar and others started going for the dark approach, as characters became less colorful and more psychological. Comics had escaped their roots and now fans had molded kid stories into gory and bloody stories that they saw in their heads while reading the old marvel 60's stuff.

This continual changing of audiences and maturity while acknoleding the existence of fights that lasted 3 issues where Boomeran battled the Hulk or scenes like any of the origins have in part crippled the overall look of the universe. Things like HOM became laughable when any marvel fan can point out that Doom made a machine that 1] resisted hex power and 2]removed the mutant gene back in Avengers # 25. This inconsistency removes any credibility for the universe.

The ultimate universe is differant. It has had its guina pig with 616. It knows what went bad and what should never be spoken of again. Firtsly, it knows its audience from the getgo. USm is a teen book, the other ultimate books go a little farther from that. Thats why the ultimate universe will ulitimately succed the 616 in story quality.
 

Ultxon

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I'm either on the "It's only 4 issues in, give it a chance" for iron man or the "****, they ****ed up!?" for iron man

I don't see what you mean for Spidey. I enjoy it, it hits its audience, its consistant, the artisit is wonderful, and the characters are great.
 

Bass

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Ultxon said:
I don't see what you mean for Spidey. I enjoy it, it hits its audience, its consistant, the artisit is wonderful, and the characters are great.

Fair enough. I meant "if the UU doesn't make mistakes, how do you explain USM, which is terrible?" USM is just really bad, I think. It's consistant, though. :wink:
 

Bass

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As much as I didn't like it - I think it's the best thing anyone's done with Venom since he thought he killed Spider-Man on an island 15 years ago. That includes Ultimate Venom.
 

Lithium

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Ok, personally, as to the 616 vs UU thing, i couldnt really chose, having only read a fraction of 616 stuff before 2000. I love USM, it has always been my fav. title in the UU. I've enjoyed every arc thus far, and look forward to seeing what happens with sabs and deadpool. my least fav UU book was ultimate adventures, followed by UFF.
 

comic_geek21

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Well, I did it this time didn't I? lol

I am open minded. I'm not saying that the 616 Universe SHOULD be killed off. But I am saying that if it does, which I doubt, but if it does, I won't shed a single tear.

I'll give 616 it's due. It is the core Universe that spawned all the parallel Universes that exist, (Ultimate, 2099, etc.) and I know people will always hold the 616 Universe very near and dear to their hearts, myself included.

One of my favorite 616 stories was always Kraven's Last Hunt. That was an extremely emotional story, and it really helped 'humanize' Kraven. That story really made me feel for Kraven on an emotional level, which I really don't feel that often. Kraven's suicide was an extremely dramatic ending, and brought closure to one of Spidey's greatest villains. Of course, since then there have been like 20 'sons' of Kraven popping up and they've completely trampled the memory of such a great character, but I'm not gonna get into all that.

And I never said that I hated the 616 Universe. If you read my post completely through, I stated that I love New Avengers. They've really taken what was an extremely stale super team, and shaken it up, giving it new life in the process. New Avengers has made 616 Spidey cool to me again, and I applaud it for doing that. Of course, it took Ultimate Spider-Man writer Brian Michael Bendis to do it, but I'm not gonna go into all that either.

And I never said that the Ultimate Universe was perfect. It's had it's share of bad stories too. I personally hated the Carnage arc. I am a huge fan of 616 Carnage, even if other people aren't. And they took the Carnage character and butchered it in a horrible story which included the murder of one of USM's best characters, Gwen Stacy. Of course, it wasn't nearly as bad as say, oh, Maximum Carnage, and it didn't drag on and on and on for nearly as long as the Clone Saga, but there's something else that I'm not gonna get into.

And then there's the subject of Venom again. The writer that said "Hey! I got an idea! Let's have Eddie Brock sell the symbiote on Ebay! Because y'know, you can buy anything on Ebay! And then, let's have Eddie slit his wrists and die so we can put the symbiote on one of Spidey's more 2 dimensional villains like, oh, Scorpion! Yeah, Scorpion! We'll put the symbiote on Scorpion and totally mutilate Venom worse than he already is! Isn't that a good idea?!". That writer should've been shot on the spot. Meanwhile, as anyone that's read the story and played the game will know, Ultimate Venom has completely arrived and he has a great deal of potential to right all the wrongs that have been done to his 616 'brother'.

Finally, about the 'Ultimate Clone Saga'. It isn't going to be THE Clone Saga, it's going to be A Clone Saga. I seriously doubt that Bendis is going to rehash that horrible story and make the same mistakes. I'm sure he's got his own story to tell, and I don't think it's going to involve anyone named Ben Reilly or Scarlet Spider.

Bottom line, I know 616 is never going to go away, but I can assure you that neither is Ultimate. Marvel has a chance to start fresh with the Ultimate Universe and tell new stories without making the same mistakes. I am completely open minded, and I don't blame 616 for it's obvious problems, I blame the overpaid writers that ruined it in the first place. Meanwhile, the Ultimate Universe is still young enough to make one hell of a splash down the line. As much as I still love the 616 Universe, it's an aged, broken down horse that's been ridden into the ground. And there comes a time that, as much as you may love that horse, you need to take it behind the barn and pull the trigger. The Ultimate Universe is a young stallion that, if groomed and trained properly, will become the next star of the show.

Now I've spoken my piece, you all know how I feel. A lot of people are going to disagree with me, and that's alright. But many other people will see the iron of my words.

616 Marvel, thank you for the memories, but you've served your purpose. May all the writers that ruined you rot in the deepest depths of H***.

Rest in Peace old friend, Rest in Piece.
 

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