A question about UIM

[DIrishB]

The DVD changes are separate from (and newer than) the 1997 edits.

But these are still basically the SE versions with the new scenes added in, correct? (Sorry, I know this is WAY off topic, just curious)

And there were no lines to do; it's the scene where Yoda and Obi-Wan and Anakin are looking on in their "force" forms at the end of ROTJ. He could very well have taken some stray footage from somewhere, as he really is just standing there.

Oh ok, I thought they were referring to both that and the scene where Vader's dying and Luke takes off his helmet in the Death Star.

Still, I can see the reasoning for doing this, as it sort of helps tie the prequels and classic trilogy together just a bit tighter.

 

[ourchair]

And how the hell did Lucas manage to change it without Hayden knowing? You'd think they'd have to reshoot the scene with Hayden doing the lines, I imagine with make-up on to make him look older. Someone's gonna have to explain this to me, sorry.

Waitaminnit. They inserted Hayden Christensen into Return of the Jedi without him knowing by reusing footage he did for the prequels?

Aren't there industry regulations designed precisely against these kinds of things? Crispin Glover successfully sued the producers of Back to the Future II for reusing BTTF1 footage, and it is because of that case that you can no longer reuse footage of an actor without their permission or (in the case of dead actors) the permission of their estate.

 

[DIrishB]

Waitaminnit. They inserted Hayden Christensen into Return of the Jedi without him knowing by reusing footage he did for the prequels?

Aren't there industry regulations designed precisely against these kinds of things? Crispin Glover successfully sued the producers of Back to the Future II for reusing BTTF1 footage, and it is because of that case that you can no longer reuse footage of an actor without their permission or (in the case of dead actors) the permission of their estate.

Unless that was a stipend or something of his contracts for the prequels. Lucas has some good lawyers working for him, we know that much.

 

[E]

But these are still basically the SE versions with the new scenes added in, correct? (Sorry, I know this is WAY off topic, just curious)

Correct.

 

[Guijllons]

Still, I can see the reasoning for doing this, as it sort of helps tie the prequels and classic trilogy together just a bit tighter.

Still, when Luke looks up and sees Ben, Yoda and some moody teenager looking back at him, he can be forgiven for thinking. "Who the **** is that?".

 

[Shi_Vral]

Then why does he keep rehashing the same theme of child prodigies doing their respective things? There seems to be a basic element of originality missing in the little I've read of his work.

The kids are a focus of about 5 of his books, with only one or two really focused on the kids. He also has a series focused on an alternate world history in which things like Hexes and spells and such actaully work. Although the main character starts out as a small child, I think he's about 20 or so (which in 1780 or so is rather old), and he was really only a kid for the first two books. Also, he's got a 5 book series set far in the future that focuses on a small group of adults, the descendants of groups of people that fled Earth around the time it was being made uninhabitable finding a space ship cable of returning them to Earth, sorta like a space migration. They end up back on Earth, and repopulate it with descendants that know the errors of their elders. His later Ender books are more focused on Religion vs. Government, the Ender's Shadow books are focused more on the pitfalls of genetic engineering and what happens to children who are not allowed to have a normal childhood, and then he also has a few one shot books with lots of different focuses. So, he's not a one trick pony, like Rowlings, or Goodkind, or Jordan (all of which I also read) but more of a visionary, like Heinlein, or even Herbert or Asimov.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

The kids are a focus of about 5 of my books, with only one or two really focused on the kids. I also have a series focused on an alternate world history in which things like Hexes and spells and such actaully work. Although the main character starts out as a small child, I think he's about 20 or so (which in 1780 or so is rather old), and he was really only a kid for the first two books. Also, I've got a 5 book series set far in the future that focus on a small group of adults, the descendants of groups of people that fled Earth around the time it was being made uninhabitable finding a space ship cable of returning them to Earth, sorta like a space migration. They end up back on Earth, and repopulate it with descendants that know the errors of their elders. My later Ender books are more focused on Religion vs. Government, the Ender's Shadow books are focused more on the pitfalls of genetic engineering and what happens to children who are not allowed to have a normal childhood, and then I have my few one shot books with lots of different focuses. So, I'm not a one trick pony, like Rowlings, or Goodkind, or Jordan (all of which I also read) but more of a visionary, like Heinlein, or even Herbert or Asimov.

Yeah....

 

[Shi_Vral]

IF I was OSC, I wouldn't waste my time on a site like this when I have my own site, where people hate me a lot less. Now, MWoF, I realise you are mostly joking, so I'm just joking back. But, can we at least get a comment on what I wrote, not just a "Look at me, I can be funny by chaging what he said a little"?

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

IF I was OSC, I wouldn't waste my time on a site like this when I have my own site, where people hate me a lot less. Now, MWoF, I realise you are mostly joking, so I'm just joking back. But, can we at least get a comment on what I wrote, not just a "Look at me, I can be funny by chaging what he said a little"?

No. :|

 

[E]

But, can we at least get a comment on what I wrote, not just a "Look at me, I can be funny by chaging what he said a little"?

You give MwoF waaaaaaaay too much credit.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

You give MwoF waaaaaaaay too much credit.

:twisted:

 

[E]

In all seriousness, maybe Irish would have to comment on that. I can't pinpoint my problems with this series as having much to do with how he writes children as a whole.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

All right I'll be serious too. I don't think Irish cares about how he focuses on the other things. I think he means that when he does focus on the kiddies the same theme is used.

The more specific question in regards to UIM is why is Tony the same prodigy the probably came central kid character in another of his works is and why is he surrounded by a bunch of menacing ******* kids like the "non-tony starks" in UIM?

 

[Shi_Vral]

But its not the same theme. In 1 out of about 25 books, he has a story in which a child born in a test tube, basically a mutant because of some genetic engineering done by his "father" (the scientest who created him, not his genetic father) has to learn to survive against a single, smart kid, somewhat similar to Obidiah. But, in that book, the two characters are almost constantly pitted against each other, whereas in UIM, Tony just met Obidiah for the first time. Yes Card has writen some books about really smart kids. But that doesn't mean that this story is the same, or even really has the same theme except in the broadest of senses.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

But its not the same theme. In 1 out of about 25 books, he has a story in which a child born in a test tube, basically a mutant because of some genetic engineering done by his "father" (the scientest who created him, not his genetic father) has to learn to survive against a single, smart kid, somewhat similar to Obidiah. But, in that book, the two characters are almost constantly pitted against each other, whereas in UIM, Tony just met Obidiah for the first time. Yes Card has writen some books about really smart kids. But that doesn't mean that this story is the same, or even really has the same theme except in the broadest of senses.

Well I don't know I just remember at Jinxworld someone who read his books said all the kids are little satans.

 

[DIrishB]

Still, when Luke looks up and sees Ben, Yoda and some moody teenager looking back at him, he can be forgiven for thinking. "Who the **** is that?".

Absolutely.

The kids are a focus of about 5 of his books, with only one or two really focused on the kids. He also has a series focused on an alternate world history in which things like Hexes and spells and such actaully work. Although the main character starts out as a small child, I think he's about 20 or so (which in 1780 or so is rather old), and he was really only a kid for the first two books. Also, he's got a 5 book series set far in the future that focuses on a small group of adults, the descendants of groups of people that fled Earth around the time it was being made uninhabitable finding a space ship cable of returning them to Earth, sorta like a space migration. They end up back on Earth, and repopulate it with descendants that know the errors of their elders. His later Ender books are more focused on Religion vs. Government, the Ender's Shadow books are focused more on the pitfalls of genetic engineering and what happens to children who are not allowed to have a normal childhood, and then he also has a few one shot books with lots of different focuses.

Ok, let me ammend my statement:

"The vast majority of his work seems to be rehashing of old ideas."

So, he's not a one trick pony, like Rowlings, or Goodkind, or Jordan (all of which I also read) but more of a visionary, like Heinlein, or even Herbert or Asimov.

I think you're overstepping his abilities quite a bit with that statement. I really don't think he even holds a candle to Heinlein, Herbert, of Asimov.

In all seriousness, maybe Irish would have to comment on that. I can't pinpoint my problems with this series as having much to do with how he writes children as a whole.

Done.

All right I'll be serious too. I don't think Irish cares about how he focuses on the other things. I think he means that when he does focus on the kiddies the same theme is used.

Precisely.

The more specific question in regards to UIM is why is Tony the same prodigy the probably came central kid character in another of his works is and why is he surrounded by a bunch of menacing ******* kids like the "non-tony starks" in UIM?

That too.

But its not the same theme.

Oh, but it is. I think you're missing my point when I use the term "theme".

In 1 out of about 25 books, he has a story in which a child born in a test tube, basically a mutant because of some genetic engineering done by his "father" (the scientest who created him, not his genetic father) has to learn to survive against a single, smart kid, somewhat similar to Obidiah. But, in that book, the two characters are almost constantly pitted against each other, whereas in UIM, Tony just met Obidiah for the first time. Yes Card has writen some books about really smart kids. But that doesn't mean that this story is the same, or even really has the same theme except in the broadest of senses.

The themes of his work seem to all be the same. Naturally the stories are different, otherwise he'd just be blatantly plagiarizing himself, but I guarantee, as I've said, the underlying themes of about 3/4 of his work seem to be the "child of great power set against the backdrop of a great event and ensuing results" theme. And thats not the point anyway. The point is the guy is seriously lacking in his writing, at least in the UIM mini. And from what I've learned about his other works, he's basically repeating the same idea over and over, changing only characters and circumstances of the story. Thats not someone who deserves to be compared to Heinlein, Asimov, or Herbert in my opinion.

 

[Shi_Vral]

He's writen four books about "great kids" as you put. Out of 25. And by comparing him to Asimov, Herbert, and Heinlein, I'm not saying his writing is on par with those, I'm saying he has writen a similar number of differently themed books/stories as them, unlike the other authors I mentioned. I'm guessing what you've gathered about his writing is from discussions revolving around UIM and not discussions revolving around his other work?

Also, I'll agree that his writing is a little off for UIM. Its by far not his best work. But its not really a rehash of any of his old stories any more than any comic arc is a rehash of any of the other arcs. Saying "child of great power set against the backdrop of a great event and ensuing results" is the theme of a majority of his work is like saying "A bad guy shows up, and the good guy(s) defeat him" is the theme of a majority of the Ultimate Comic books. Sure, its a common plot device, but the story arcs address different issues (or themes). Its the same with OSC's work. Ender's Game was writen to give OSC a character with the back story he wanted for his main character in Speaker for the Dead. It then went on to win the Hugo and Nebula awards. As did Speaker for the Dead. In which Ender is 30 or so years old. Not a kid any more. Ender's Shadow is a re-telling of Ender's Game, but from the point of view of Bean, a genetically altered kid born in a test tube with off the chart inteligence, who, upon reaching puberty, begins to grow out of controll. Seventh Son is a book about a child born the Seventh Son of a Seventh Son, a rather "magically" (for lack of a better work) potent combination in a world where people have "magical" knacks, and things like hexes and jinxes and curses really work. In Red Prophet, Alvin Maker (the kid from Seventh Son) is a little older, and is trained by a Native American Prophet and his brother in the ways of the "Red Man." Then, in Prentice Alvin (book 3) Alvin is into his teens (pretty the equivilant of a College Student, IE not a kid) and is sent off to apprentice with a blacksmith. And of the 20 or so of OSC's books I've read, those 4 (Ender's Game, Ender's Shadow, Seventh Son, and Red Prophet) are the only ones that focus on a "child of great power set against the backdrop of a great event and ensuing results" So, tell me again how that's 3/4 of his work? Because, even if the 5 or so books of his I haven't read are about kids, that's still only 9/25, which is much less than 3/4.

As to what MWoF said, I guess in a very broad sense he focuses on the same theme of great kids in difficult situations, but the Themes (the issues he brings up with his work) are different in each of the stories. So, if by theme you mean the basic idea of a story (great kid, difficult situation) sure, he uses the same when kids show up. But by the same token, so do comic book writers (90% of the time, when you have a team book, it focuses on the interaction of the team members, and when you have a single hero book, it focuses on the internal conflict of that hero and the things they have to do as a hero). But if by theme you mean the overall issues the writer is trying to address, then no, I'd have to say that even between Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow, or between Seventh Son and Red Prophet, OSC addresses different issues in each of the books.

 

[ourchair]

Unless that was a stipend or something of his contracts for the prequels. Lucas has some good lawyers working for him, we know that much.

I had assumed that would be the case, and was hoping someone would look that up.

It makes sense for such things to be included in Christensen's contract, but how did that happen 'without him knowing'? Even then the statement 'without him knowing' implies that not only Christensen, but his agent and lawyers are unaware of such use.

 

[E]

It makes sense for such things to be included in Christensen's contract, but how did that happen 'without him knowing'? Even then the statement 'without him knowing' implies that not only Christensen, but his agent and lawyers are unaware of such use.

Maybe they are all just gigantic idiots.

 

[DIrishB]

He's writen four books about "great kids" as you put. Out of 25. And by comparing him to Asimov, Herbert, and Heinlein, I'm not saying his writing is on par with those, I'm saying he has writen a similar number of differently themed books/stories as them, unlike the other authors I mentioned. I'm guessing what you've gathered about his writing is from discussions revolving around UIM and not discussions revolving around his other work?

Actually it is based on his other work, not only UIM. Do you think I'm really that ignorant?

Also, I'll agree that his writing is a little off for UIM. Its by far not his best work. But its not really a rehash of any of his old stories any more than any comic arc is a rehash of any of the other arcs. Saying "child of great power set against the backdrop of a great event and ensuing results" is the theme of a majority of his work is like saying "A bad guy shows up, and the good guy(s) defeat him" is the theme of a majority of the Ultimate Comic books.

You're confusing theme with plot device.

Sure, its a common plot device, but the story arcs address different issues (or themes). Its the same with OSC's work. Ender's Game was writen to give OSC a character with the back story he wanted for his main character in Speaker for the Dead. It then went on to win the Hugo and Nebula awards. As did Speaker for the Dead. In which Ender is 30 or so years old. Not a kid any more. Ender's Shadow is a re-telling of Ender's Game, but from the point of view of Bean, a genetically altered kid born in a test tube with off the chart inteligence, who, upon reaching puberty, begins to grow out of controll. Seventh Son is a book about a child born the Seventh Son of a Seventh Son, a rather "magically" (for lack of a better work) potent combination in a world where people have "magical" knacks, and things like hexes and jinxes and curses really work. In Red Prophet, Alvin Maker (the kid from Seventh Son) is a little older, and is trained by a Native American Prophet and his brother in the ways of the "Red Man." Then, in Prentice Alvin (book 3) Alvin is into his teens (pretty the equivilant of a College Student, IE not a kid) and is sent off to apprentice with a blacksmith. And of the 20 or so of OSC's books I've read, those 4 (Ender's Game, Ender's Shadow, Seventh Son, and Red Prophet) are the only ones that focus on a "child of great power set against the backdrop of a great event and ensuing results" So, tell me again how that's 3/4 of his work? Because, even if the 5 or so books of his I haven't read are about kids, that's still only 9/25, which is much less than 3/4.

So his characters age, big deal. Thats a normal occurrence in fictional media. His stories all seem to start with the child theme though, and just go in whatever direction from there. Instead of looking at ALL his novels (the countless sequels, etc), look at the original novels that inspired those sequels. I think then saying 3/4 of his work involving the same theme is correct.

As to what MWoF said, I guess in a very broad sense he focuses on the same theme of great kids in difficult situations, but the Themes (the issues he brings up with his work) are different in each of the stories. So, if by theme you mean the basic idea of a story (great kid, difficult situation) sure, he uses the same when kids show up. But by the same token, so do comic book writers (90% of the time, when you have a team book, it focuses on the interaction of the team members, and when you have a single hero book, it focuses on the internal conflict of that hero and the things they have to do as a hero). But if by theme you mean the overall issues the writer is trying to address, then no, I'd have to say that even between Ender's Game and Ender's Shadow, or between Seventh Son and Red Prophet, OSC addresses different issues in each of the books.

I would hope so, otherwise he'd definitly not deserve those awards. Point is he's terrible at writing this comic story. I've never read his novels so can't comment on them, but I can comment on this story, so I am. I'm not even saying were he to write a comic in the future it couldn't be good, its just that this one sucks, end of story.

I had assumed that would be the case, and was hoping someone would look that up.

It makes sense for such things to be included in Christensen's contract, but how did that happen 'without him knowing'? Even then the statement 'without him knowing' implies that not only Christensen, but his agent and lawyers are unaware of such use.

Maybe they are all just gigantic idiots.

I could see that.