Fantastic Homoeroticism or "D/F"

[René]

Dude, if its on TV it must be real

God, please dont start that wit me fine. What the **** is the internet? :arrgh:

 

[ourchair]

You know, now I absolutely regret starting this thread in the first place. Whether we or fandom in general consider Doom and Reed as "gay lovers" is utterly beside the point. I'm merely trying to start a discussion on why, in the VAST universe of transgressive uses of pop culture (from fan-based doujinshi to Simpsons mods for Doom to yaoi fiction for anime characters), Reed and Doom have not been converted into a slash pairing.

I myself would never have looked for homoerotic subtext in Star Trek or Harry Potter or Rurouni Kenshin but it's been done by others and why hasn't it been done for this notoriously conflicting pair? Other thoughts I'm looking for is what people here think of slash and other such transgressive uses of superheroes, but instead everyone is just hung up on Doom/Reed as gay lovers and why that strikes them as either funny or sick. What a completely tunnel-visioned way to look at the topic.

 

[Nurhachi]

I think we just didnt understand what you were saying when you started this thread.

 

[ourchair]

I think we just didnt understand what you were saying when you started this thread.

Well, I'll admit that I'm not always clear when I post because of my tendency towards polysyllabic ramble, but I think I was pretty clear when I ended my thread opener with: "Any thoughts on D/F? or even comic book slash in general?"

I don't think it gets any more straightforward than that.

 

[Friday]

This smacks of Millers interpretation of The Joker/Batman relationship.

Eew.

 

[ourchair]

This smacks of Millers interpretation of The Joker/Batman relationship.

Eew.

Miller is a nutcase, anyway.

Well honestly, I don't buy into lame homoerotic interpretations either, but I just think they're funny. And the absence of it in comics fandom is just well, surprising considering how prevalent it is in Japanese fandom.

 

[Friday]

Miller is a nutcase, anyway.

Well honestly, I don't buy into lame homoerotic interpretations either, but I just think they're funny. And the absence of it in comics fandom is just well, surprising considering how prevalent it is in Japanese fandom.

Yes, but the Japanese are a little paradox, the more tabooa subject the more they seem to integrate it into thier mediums. Just don't bring it up at the dinner table.

 

[ourchair]

Yes, but the Japanese are a little paradox, the more tabooa subject the more they seem to integrate it into thier mediums. Just don't bring it up at the dinner table.

True. They're technically a rigid society that is quite interestingly more permissive about how pop culture breaks down their social conventions through wildly transgressive means like apocalyptic fiction, gender-sexuality play and transformation epics.

And if Miller is so keen on building up a homoerotic connection between Batman and the Joker, then there lies the source of a weird coincidental link between THAT and his insertions of Japanese cultural elements into the mythologies of Daredevil and Wolverine.

 

[Guijllons]

Really what you're talking about is respect.
So many of these big fights come down to macho slogan swinging and chest puffing postulating. Each of the characters eying each other up as they circle about, before they get to rutting. This is done to eye up the opponent, to understand that they are powerful, and to find a weakness. And this is where the homo-eroticism comes in.
Most heroes respect that they can be damaged by the other person, that they have power over them, possible domination even, and from the comes the respect. Reed and Doom have no respect for each other really, they don't rate each others work, and nor as men.

 

[ourchair]

Really what you're talking about is respect.
So many of these big fights come down to macho slogan swinging and chest puffing postulating. Each of the characters eying each other up as they circle about, before they get to rutting. This is done to eye up the opponent, to understand that they are powerful, and to find a weakness. And this is where the homo-eroticism comes in.

Most heroes respect that they can be damaged by the other person, that they have power over them, possible domination even, and from the comes the respect. Reed and Doom have no respect for each other really, they don't rate each others work, and nor as men.

Ah, a serious response.

I get what you're saying but I don't think that psychosexual undercurrents exist only in such combative posturing. Whether or not Doom or Reed respect each other as intellectuals is something we'll probably disagree on, but either way, I think that their very conflict allows room for somekind of quasi-Oedipal sexuality --- they are rivals, and the very tension that exists can be resolved through sexual or amorous relations.

Its quite similar to say Neon Genesis Evangelion, in which an awkward rivalry exists between the pilots of the Eva units, but they attempt to resolve these rivalrys with bleak forays into sexual experimentation. Yaoi fiction itself tends to document such relationships such as those between Sanosuke Sagara and Hajime Saito of Rurouni Kenshin, where their dislike is relieved through the forceful and dominant advances of Saito on Sano.

Doom and Reed would never in any kind of canonical story ever have romantic/sexual relations, but they can be "slash"ed by this very logic.

 

[Guijllons]

As for respecting each other as intellectuals, this may be true. But it works on levels, they have always been surrounded by great thinkers. Van Damme does not see Reed as anything above the masses as the Baxter building, and Reed cannot respect a man that makes errors, simply because, as he states, he does not.

And if the main crux of this possible tension would be an intellectual one, then this would indeed explain the more asexual platonic relationship that they have. Reed did not go to denmark to beat Damme, but for a purpose other.
There is no real rivalry on Reeds part at least. If anything, Damme does have this desire to prove that he cannot be beaten and is worthy of respect which puts him in an interesting place on the sexual conflict table.
He doesn't wish to be immediately dominant, but to be the recipient of the advances of Reed. As in, who is the dominant party?
So in a sense we can see Van Damme as submissive to Reed due to his arrogance.

Now you mentioned an awful lot of japanese stuff there that I have no knowledge of, so on that I can't comment.

 

[ourchair]

There is no real rivalry on Reeds part at least. If anything, Damme does have this desire to prove that he cannot be beaten and is worthy of respect which puts him in an interesting place on the sexual conflict table.

He doesn't wish to be immediately dominant, but to be the recipient of the advances of Reed. As in, who is the dominant party in the act of fellatio?
So in a sense we can see Van Damme as submissive to Reed due to his arrogance.

Now you mentioned an awful lot of japanese stuff there that I have no knowledge of, so on that I can't comment.

So you're saying that Van Damme, by his very arrogance and imperious attitude, would only acknowledge Reed if he were to receive advances from him. But you ask, "who is the dominant party in the act of fellatio?" and you don't answer this for me. So who IS dominant

 

[Guijllons]

Van Damme would be the recipient here. Though dominant, it's a more passive position. Reed is actively seeking exchange, and Van Damme merely in acceptance, and grateful for the exchange. Though using the fellatio metaphor could be misleading because Reed considers the exchange a purely practical one, and I only use it in the context of this discussion.
I think the difference really between the characters is that Reed is essentially a pragmatic and Van Damme a romantic. Reed tests high grade explosives without thinking of how it would effect others should it go wrong, and Van Damme thinks he is a king.
And that essentially is why I see no true homo-erotic subtext, because Reed does not share this desire to dominate the other party, but merely to get what is required. Though the same point can equally be argued for the reverse.

 

[ourchair]

Van Damme would be the recipient here. Though dominant, it's a more passive position. Reed is actively seeking exchange, and Van Damme merely in acceptance, and grateful for the exchange. Though using the fellatio metaphor could be misleading because Reed considers the exchange a purely practical one, and I only use it in the context of this discussion.
I think the difference really between the characters is that Reed is essentially a pragmatic and Van Damme a romantic. Reed tests high grade explosives without thinking of how it would effect others should it go wrong, and Van Damme thinks he is a king.
And that essentially is why I see no true homo-erotic subtext, because Reed does not share this desire to dominate the other party, but merely to get what is required. Though the same point can equally be argued for the reverse.

Truly an intriguing thoughts, Guij. I like how you dichotomized the two scientists, and it applies even within a 616 context. Okay, our discussion has made me satisfied enough NOT to regret starting this thread.

 

[Caduceus]

Really, I know some of you, well, all of you are freaked out, but I thought it was an interesting point of discussion for those into the transgressive uses and appropriation of pop culture. Now that I think about it, comic book slash doesn't seem to appear as often as slash for anime and manga characters.

Thats because of the directly sexual nature of many anime and manga series. There's a lot more commonly flat out dirty anime and manga out there than there are mainstream comics.

Although a really obvious one I've heard of is Cyclops/Wolverine.

 

[Guijllons]

Not to mention Xavier and Magento. They define each other by their own existence, and both have this this superior desire. I mentioned in another thread about the reason Scarlet Witch and Quicksilver are involved with each other as they see no-one else can be worthy of them. And this can play out with Xavier/Lensherr too, truly quite Spartan if you look at it.

 

[compound]

At the risk of going off topic...

Not to mention Xavier and Magento. They define each other by their own existence, and both have this this superior desire.

I believe this is *precisely* what Millar implied during "World Tour". Xavier and Magneto so perfectly completmented each other's skills and world-view that it caused Xavier to regard Moria and David as somehow 'beneath him', hence his generally neglectful behavior towards his own wife and son.

And from there, it's not very had to imagine the original Xavier/Erik partnership taking on more... intimate... qualities.

It's not so difficult to picture a Reed and Van Damme union, given similar circumstances.

 

[Guijllons]

If indeed Reed shared Van Damme's superiority complex.

 

[compound]

Reed cannot respect a man that makes errors, simply because, as he states, he does not.

I don't know about you, but where I come from, that seems like a definite indication of a superiority complex. :wink:

 

[Caduceus]

I believe this is *precisely* what Millar implied during "World Tour". Xavier and Magneto so perfectly completmented each other's skills and world-view that it caused Xavier to regard Moria and David as somehow 'beneath him', hence his generally neglectful behavior towards his own wife and son.

The word that springs to mind is "superfluous". With Magneto, Moira and David were no longer necessary.

And from there, it's not very had to imagine the original Xavier/Erik partnership taking on more... intimate... qualities.

It's not so difficult to picture a Reed and Van Damme union, given similar circumstances.

It isn't difficult for actually a huge number of characters if you think about it. The rivalry/opposition complex is a traditional outlet for various kinds of tension or jealousy.