Magic in the Ultimate Universe

Guijllons

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I think ghost rider could exist without magic if done correctly. It's not essential to what ghost rider actually does.

With someone like Strange that does honest-to-goodness incantations, you can't do without it. Though I would like some rationalisation behind it, there are plenty of dream state treatments that would work fine. Achieving total awareness from the total understanding of self and ones own thresholds, and all that jazz. But I bet Bendis will just do it the unimaginative way.
 

Gavin Bennett

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My view is that magic probably shouldn't be MAGIC!!!! in the UU. Having mystic super heroes in the big come-all-ye mess that is the 616 universe is one thing. But the UU should do something different.

I would say that magic is a type of psychic power. Again - limiting the idea to pseudo science. I would even propose some sort of odd gene amplifying the power. Those with the odd gene are rare, and really need a mentor, or they burn themselves out, or harm others. Unlike normal "super powers" you never really fully master these abilities: they are too wound up in the mysteries of the human psyche.

Thus you could have John Constantine level characters all the way up to Stephen Strange level characters without cheapening their impact.

I would say that a lot of the divine stuff is really an expression of the collective unconscious. Thor is a god - sort of. He is really a guy channeling the memory of the original hero who became the god we know as Thor. It has happened to heroic sorts all through the ages. Any god who could ever be imagined has manifested itself thus. But that was a long time ago, and no one believes in gods anymore.

That would allow writers to sneak in characters such as Hercules, Damon Hellstorm and so on.

Gavin
 

Irish_4204

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I could see the UU saying that 'magic' is another form of science. Something like alchemy.
 

E

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Guijllons said:
Magic and Mutant? Nah, Dr. Strange, and that's it. If at all.

Agreed.

Guijllons said:
I think ghost rider could exist without magic if done correctly. It's not essential to what ghost rider actually does.

And again.
 

Irish_4204

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I think if 'magic' is going to exist in UU, it should be considered a form of reality warping...

Are there any reality warping beings in UU?
 

Bass

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No place for magic? Preposterous.

It's handled in the UU the same way we handle it today. With a huge dollop of skepticism and then trivialization, then calling that trivialization "rationalizing".

Thor, is supposed to be a god, a totally magical entity, neither mutant or machine. And look at how he interacts with this world. Brilliantly.

There's no difference between the use of science and magic in today's fiction. Science is used sloppily by many writers to do whatever the hell they want to. No functional difference at all.

The thing with science is that when it works it is given limitations that allow for creativity. Same for magic.

So, of course we can have both. We *do* have both at the moment.
 

Guijllons

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On the contrary, Thor is not Magical. Once you label something as something, it makes something fact.

People (apparently) see ghosts all the time. What they actually see is something that they can't explain (probably a cat) and then they label it a ghost later. Ghosts don't exist. So if we start saying "oh, it's magic" to everything that can't immediately be explained, then we've lost a great deal of credibility.

Sometimes it's better to leave mysteries mysteries, the unknown in the realms of the unknown, and the unexplained without any explanation. It serves the story better, and you don't have a who muddle of incredulous things to resolve later.
 

nigma

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it seems like ya people are referring to two different types of magics in my opinion....

1) theres the arcane magic, that fouces on symbloes, books, vocol spells, and objects.

2) the spirt realm, where you can talk, speak, see the dead, and fouces on the spirt engery around you to do magic...

again this is my opinion, so which type of magic are you referring to?
 

Guijllons

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Just the one type of magic. That thing people use to explain what they do not know.

It's ok for a writer sometimes to just write in things that the characters involved, just do not know the answer to. without making them sound like bored housewives with a tale to tell, and call it magic.
 

Bass

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Guijllons said:
On the contrary, Thor is not Magical. Once you label something as something, it makes something fact.

People (apparently) see ghosts all the time. What they actually see is something that they can't explain (probably a cat) and then they label it a ghost later. Ghosts don't exist. So if we start saying "oh, it's magic" to everything that can't immediately be explained, then we've lost a great deal of credibility.

It's odd that you say this considering that the scientific community doesn't seem to lose any credibility when, if they can't immediately explain something, just say "oh, it's coincidence" or "a freak of nature" or some other euphamism.

Science has loads of these all over the place. And science has not proven, conclusively, that magic, doesn't exist. Indeed, many magical beliefs revolve around the concept of other planes of reality, which theoretical astrophyscis is trying to currently come to grips with (such as the M-Theory, or Membrane Theory of universes).

The word magic is far more wondrous than you give it credit for, and you cannot discuss the spiritual in terms of science any more than you can discuss a story in terms of mathematics.

But I wasn't talking about our universe, I'm talking about the Ultimate universe.

There is no more realism in an alien race coming down to destroy Earth than there is in Doctor Strange making a conjuring.

Both are creations of fiction.

Provided they are handled appropriately, either can exist, and in some cases, can exist together.

One of the best examples of blending magic and science can be found in Star Wars where we have the force (as described in the original trilogy) and hyperspace, blasters, and spaceships.

Thor is a magical entity because he states that his powers are given to him by Gods. Proper Gods. He states this.

Now, we don't know for certain just what he is, but we know that the Captain Norway theory is a creation of Loki, who supposedly is a God.

Now Thor, could be an 'alien'. But there is no more 'realism' in that possibilty for Thor than the magical route.

Indeed, the Ultimate universe should be skeptical about such magical possibilites, especially if it wants to reflect current Western society more accurately. But that doesn't mean that magic, in any form, cannot exist.

That said, I'm quite happy to have a book in which magic is not real, there is no such thing at all... so long as its well written. And I'm quite happy to have the reverse.

My point is this: Magic can be in the Ultimate universe, provided that they handle it as well as they've handled Science.
 

Guijllons

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The point I was making was the labeling of such a thing.
No scientist in his right mind would say "it's magic" when talking before a scientific crowd about cosmic string theory.

Once you label something as such, you have given it realistic perimeters within the world you are developing, you have given it body and form, and through that, purpose.

We understand the purpose of life (breed, survive, consume), and so using this simple understanding we can quite easily transplant aliens into any fiction that claims to have a certain realistic bent.

Magic, would need a purpose, a beginning and a path. To 'conjure' up such a thing for no end other than itself, reeks of desperation on the part of the writer. If magic is to be "made real", then it cannot be consigned to merely a trivial aspect of the world, the world needs to run on the stuff. The Ultimate Universe, already, does not run that way.

Thor, could be a god. There might be dark matter. Certainly, these things are suggested in this fiction, and are suggested in real world sciences, but we don't have any proof per se. So, that's how I would like it left. There is an unprovable idea, people can speculate all they will, but it's just, for now, unknown.

And I feel that magic should not enter the UU, because such a labeling requires a greater explanation that the world currently has, or needs, already.
 

nigma

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Yea here in "western socicty" the term magic is looked upon differently then in other parts of the world, in some cultures it is very much apart of the air they breathe. In my own Indian cultural, spiritual magic is very much intertwined with everyday life, to explain events in the past and present and look for guidance.

And define for me the term magic not some dictionary definition but what you think it means.

the same way i definded magic, to show where im coming from you all seem to say the word magic but never define it.
 

Guijllons

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Magic in real terms is still a label we use to explain something we don't know how to explain, or are too lazy to explain.

I think the same would be true in these books.

So instead of giving it this label, why not merely say that "we don't know", rather than bringing in attempts to explain it, and use it as an explanation for things. (god forbid)
 
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Dr.Strangefate

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Go Guij! Yeah... I agree....

But I still hold to the fact that Moon Knight should have ties to Magic. If not he's just a Batman in a White Suit. And Technically, the UU already has an Ultimate Batman (Hawk-Owl)

Other Magical Characters should, as mentioned before, stick to Dr. Strange, Ghost Rider and their helpers and enemies.... I dont think we need an Ultimate Dormammu or any big ancient magical evil like that... I think that all Magic should stay on the down low, with everyone else not really understanding it. A la Dr. Strange in USP.
 

Bass

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Guijllons said:
The point I was making was the labeling of such a thing.
...
Magic, would need a purpose, a beginning and a path. To 'conjure' up such a thing for no end other than itself, reeks of desperation on the part of the writer. If magic is to be "made real", then it cannot be consigned to merely a trivial aspect of the world, the world needs to run on the stuff. The Ultimate Universe, already, does not run that way.

Ah, of course. You are absolutely correct. This is just what I was trying to say as well. Just brining in "oh, it's magic" as a catch-all excuse would be a terrible thing to do. And I would agree entirely; if Strange and Thor's magical forms go higher up the food chain than Spidey (who, let's face it, doesn't know much of anything), to say the Fantastic Four or the Ultimates, I would expect as you say, the magic to be 'made real' and the universe to 'run on the stuff'. Indeed, I'm sure this is to be addressed in Ultimates 2 #6, where they treat magic as little more than a joke (which is very appropriate) and possibly not real.

There's nothing preventing magic from showing up properly in the Ultimate universe, it just requires a lot of work.

I totally agree with you.

But yet, you are still wrong.
 

DigiEmissary

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Guijllons said:
We understand the purpose of life (breed, survive, consume), and so using this simple understanding we can quite easily transplant aliens into any fiction that claims to have a certain realistic bent.

Aliens as they are represented in 99% of science fiction are completely unrealistic. Any alien would have evolved on a world under completely alternate environmental conditions, on a planet (or other celestial body) made up of different concentrations of elements and minerals than our own. To think that, under those conditions, something would evolve that uses a principally oxygen/nitrogen atmosphere, as well as communicating by vibrating that air and interpreting data on the visible light spectrum, let alone having a head, two "arms" and two "legs" attached to a main organ-containing body, is preposterous.

Read Michael Crichton's Sphere for a realistic look at aliens.
 

Guijllons

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Erm, yes, or course. I don't think anyone would disagree with you there, or have said anything to the contrary to that.

But, just tell that to MWoF, he wants Galactus to be a big guy in a purple suit :)
 

Solaris

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from reading bass and guijllons, and you guys agreeing with one another, is this whole magic - no magic thing nothing more than a matter of semantics?

incidentally, i agree with you both :D
 

Bass

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Loki said:
Erm, yes, or course. I don't think anyone would disagree with you there, or have said anything to the contrary to that.

But, just tell that to MWoF, he wants Galactus to be a big guy in a purple suit

Hey! So do I!

With a skirt. Don't forget the skirt.

And his helmet.
 

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