Marvel Cinematic Universe - Timeline (Part 2)

[Slyonic]

They never said they're not in the same universe, they're saying they're not in the same "continuity" (continuing story). They're canon, in the same universe, and the fact they mentioned Ghost Rider confirms this. Helstrom connects to Ghost Rider connects to Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. connects to Marvel Studios ("MCU").

The Marvel Netflix shows were the same. Marvel Studios has their own story, which is the films and Disney+ shows. This is not part of that, which is what they're describing when saying "MCU".

I won't pretend to understand the difference between Canon and Continuity, but I have heard that there is a difference in discussions regarding Marvel Studios/TV. However, he explicitly says "We are not tied to the MCU, we are our own separate thing."

And believe me, I want it on the timeline. Just throwing this in for the sake of discussion.

 

[Pro Bot]

I won't pretend to understand the difference between Canon and Continuity, but I have heard that there is a difference in discussions regarding Marvel Studios/TV. However, he explicitly says "We are not tied to the MCU, we are our own separate thing."

And believe me, I want it on the timeline. Just throwing this in for the sake of discussion.

When Ghost Rider was announced, dispite being the same actor, it was said to be separate to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Later, it was confirmed it would reference Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. This is exactly the same. It's canon, but it doesn't tie into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It's how Daredevil exists in this world but doesn't meet the Avengers.

In fiction, canon is the material accepted as officially part of the story in the fictional universe of that story.

Helstrom is this.

In fiction, continuity is consistency of the characteristics of people, plot, objects, and places seen by the reader or viewer over some period of time.

Helstrom isn't this. You won't see Captain America meeting the Helstroms anytime soon.

 

[Slyonic]

When Ghost Rider was announced, dispite being the same actor, it was said to be separate to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. Later, it was confirmed it would reference Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D.. This is exactly the same. It's canon, but it doesn't tie into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It's how Daredevil exists in this world but doesn't meet the Avengers.


Helstrom is this.


Helstrom isn't this. You won't see Captain America meeting the Helstroms anytime soon.

I get what you're trying to say, but this won't convince anyone that isn't invested in expanding this timeline with new content.

Ghost rider getting cancelled, Marvel TV no longer being a thing, the Marvel banner being removed from Helstrom, the EW interview where the showrunner says Helstrom is "siloed off from the MCU" and him explicitly saying it not being tied to the MCU and it being its own separate thing, followed up by him saying it's a relief to finally get that out....

Let's be real, that all points toward it not being officially part of the MCU, thus not being canon.

 

[Rman]

I get what you're trying to say, but this won't convince anyone that isn't invested in expanding this timeline with new content.

Ghost rider getting cancelled, Marvel TV no longer being a thing, the Marvel banner being removed from Helstrom, the EW interview where the showrunner says Helstrom is "siloed off from the MCU" and him explicitly saying it not being tied to the MCU and it being its own separate thing, followed up by him saying it's a relief to finally get that out....

Let's be real, that all points toward it not being officially part of the MCU, thus not being canon.

Exactly this. I wouldn't be surprised if MCU references such as Ghost Rider or the Darkhold were taken out once it was pretty clear Marvel Television was done. I'm planning on watching it, but it's pretty clear that the show as is, is now its own thing. And that's perfectly fine. I prefer that Agents of SHIELD S7 is the end of Marvel Television in the MCU anyway.

 

[Pro Bot]

I get what you're trying to say, but this won't convince anyone that isn't invested in expanding this timeline with new content.

Ghost rider getting cancelled, Marvel TV no longer being a thing, the Marvel banner being removed from Helstrom, the EW interview where the showrunner says Helstrom is "siloed off from the MCU" and him explicitly saying it not being tied to the MCU and it being its own separate thing, followed up by him saying it's a relief to finally get that out....

Let's be real, that all points toward it not being officially part of the MCU, thus not being canon.

Exactly this. I wouldn't be surprised if MCU references such as Ghost Rider or the Darkhold were taken out once it was pretty clear Marvel Television was done. I'm planning on watching it, but it's pretty clear that the show as is, is now its own thing. And that's perfectly fine. I prefer that Agents of SHIELD S7 is the end of Marvel Television in the MCU anyway.

You're both definitely taking this out of context. Helstrom was always going to be a standalone story set in the same world, not tied to the Marvel Cinematic Universe films. They literally said "the darker part" referring to the MCU world, so it's like how the Netflix shows were the gritty "part" of the MCU.

I took it to the MCU wiki, they seem to agree with me. It's just that Reddit, honestly.

I don't even want to waste my energy, going in circles. It's canon, believe it or not, doesn't really matter to me.

At least wait and see, first.

Literally the same thing was said about Ghost Rider while also confirming it's the same reality. Jeph Loeb outranks the Helstrom showrunner.

 

[Slyonic]

You're both definitely taking this out of context. Helstrom was always going to be a standalone story set in the same world, not tied to the Marvel Cinematic Universe films. They literally said "the darker part" referring to the MCU world, so it's like how the Netflix shows were the gritty "part" of the MCU.

I took it to the MCU wiki, they seem to agree with me. It's just that Reddit, honestly.

I don't even want to waste my energy, going in circles. It's canon, believe it or not, doesn't really matter to me.

At least wait and see, first.

Literally the same thing was said about Ghost Rider while also confirming it's the same reality. Jeph Loeb outranks the Helstrom showrunner.

Jeph Loeb outranks shit. Which each show he said there were going to be greater ties to the MCU and how we'll have to "wait and see" where something fits. He is not thrustworthy at all. Besides, he isn't even being interviewed for Helstrom anymore, that says enough.

You keep going back to the Ghost Rider comments. They were made a long time ago, when Marvel Tv still existed, when the show wasn't even canceled. A time when it was going to be "Marvel's" Helstrom. Everything that happened since points to it not being canon. It's a simple as that.

Rman and I aren't taking anything out of context. He says "We are our own separate thing." He doesn't say "There are no MCU easter eggs." He doesn't say "The darker part of the MCU" That's you filling in blanks that aren't even there.

I want this to be on the timeline as much as you, and it should be. I'm not suggesting we should keep it off the timeline. But there is countless evidence it's just not canon, and if you can't see that, I don't know what will change your mind.

Like, if Jed Whedon suddenly said AoS is it's own separate thing, I'd be on the other side. AoS is definitely canon. Countless evidence that it is. Helstrom just doesn't have that anymore.

And yes, I get it. Those Reddit people are annoying. I'm not one of them. "If Feige didn't have a hand in it, it's not canon." That's bullshit. And Helstrom was meant to be part of the MCU. As was Ghost Rider. I'm sure even the Darkhold would've shown up. I hate that none of that will happen now. Marvel removing their name from Helstrom didn't bother me, I still considered it canon. But when the showrunner LITERALLY says "We are not tied to the MCU", then I take his word for it and I don't go through the mental gymnastics required to have Helstrom still be canon.

 

[Pro Bot]

Jeph Loeb outranks shit. Which each show he said there were going to be greater ties to the MCU and how we'll have to "wait and see" where something fits. He is not thrustworthy at all. Besides, he isn't even being interviewed for Helstrom anymore, that says enough.

You keep going back to the Ghost Rider comments. They were made a long time ago, when Marvel Tv still existed, when the show wasn't even canceled. A time when it was going to be "Marvel's" Helstrom. Everything that happened since points to it not being canon. It's a simple as that.

Rman and I aren't taking anything out of context. He says "We are our own separate thing." He doesn't say "There are no MCU easter eggs." He doesn't say "The darker part of the MCU" That's you filling in blanks that aren't even there.

I want this to be on the timeline as much as you, and it should be. I'm not suggesting we should keep it off the timeline. But there is countless evidence it's just not canon, and if you can't see that, I don't know what will change your mind.

Like, if Jed Whedon suddenly said AoS is it's own separate thing, I'd be on the other side. AoS is definitely canon. Countless evidence that it is. Helstrom just doesn't have that anymore.

And yes, I get it. Those Reddit people are annoying. I'm not one of them. "If Feige didn't have a hand in it, it's not canon." That's bullshit. And Helstrom was meant to be part of the MCU. As was Ghost Rider. I'm sure even the Darkhold would've shown up. I hate that none of that will happen now. Marvel removing their name from Helstrom didn't bother me, I still considered it canon. But when the showrunner LITERALLY says "We are not tied to the MCU", then I take his word for it and I don't go through the mental gymnastics required to have Helstrom still be canon.

1. They were never "tied" to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. They were always a standalone show.

2. He said "tied to that Helstrom universe, and that Ghost Rider universe, that darker, sort of, part". What is "part" referring to? Not his shoes, I bet. If this show ties into that "Ghost Rider universe", it's Robbie Reyes, which implies it's the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

3. It's been hinted to have ties to the Marvel Cinematic Universe on Twitter.

Nothing said here is new information. You're inferring that not being connected means it's not canon. Kevin Feige said the Disney+ shows are the first to connect to the MCU proper. He essentially said "those other shows aren't connected directly". Helstrom is not connected directly.

I'm saying that, by this logic, none of the shows are canon, which obviously isn't true. Using this, we can assume that Helstrom is canon.

 

[Rman]

Jeph Loeb outranks shit. Which each show he said there were going to be greater ties to the MCU and how we'll have to "wait and see" where something fits. He is not thrustworthy at all. Besides, he isn't even being interviewed for Helstrom anymore, that says enough.

You keep going back to the Ghost Rider comments. They were made a long time ago, when Marvel Tv still existed, when the show wasn't even canceled. A time when it was going to be "Marvel's" Helstrom. Everything that happened since points to it not being canon. It's a simple as that.

Rman and I aren't taking anything out of context. He says "We are our own separate thing." He doesn't say "There are no MCU easter eggs." He doesn't say "The darker part of the MCU" That's you filling in blanks that aren't even there.

I want this to be on the timeline as much as you, and it should be. I'm not suggesting we should keep it off the timeline. But there is countless evidence it's just not canon, and if you can't see that, I don't know what will change your mind.

Like, if Jed Whedon suddenly said AoS is it's own separate thing, I'd be on the other side. AoS is definitely canon. Countless evidence that it is. Helstrom just doesn't have that anymore.

And yes, I get it. Those Reddit people are annoying. I'm not one of them. "If Feige didn't have a hand in it, it's not canon." That's bullshit. And Helstrom was meant to be part of the MCU. As was Ghost Rider. I'm sure even the Darkhold would've shown up. I hate that none of that will happen now. Marvel removing their name from Helstrom didn't bother me, I still considered it canon. But when the showrunner LITERALLY says "We are not tied to the MCU", then I take his word for it and I don't go through the mental gymnastics required to have Helstrom still be canon.A

1. They were never "tied" to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. They were always a standalone show.
2. He said "that darker, sort of, part". What is "part" referring to? Not his shoes, I bet.
3. It's been hinted to have ties to the Marvel Cinematic Universe on Twitter.

Nothing said here is new information. You're inferring that not being connected means it's not canon. Kevin Feige said the Disney+ shows are the first to connect to the MCU proper. He essentially said "those other shows aren't connected directly". Helstrom is not connected directly.

I'm saying that, by this logic, none of the shows are canon, which obviously isn't true. Using this, we can assume that Helstrom is canon.

I honestly don't see why it matters if Helstrom is in the MCU or not. It's pretty clear that it's standalone when a majority of the other shows at least reference or give nods to the other movies and shows. I just don't see why it's so important something with such little impact just has to be included. Yes, it originally was made to be in the MCU and chances are it originally referenced other work. However, Marvel Television ending had obviously changed things. And I don't see the point in adding 10 episodes of a one off show that in the end has nothing to do with the MCU. And like I said Agents of SHIELD works much better as a send off to the Marvel Television era of the MCU.

 

[Pro Bot]

I honestly don't see why it matters if Helstrom is in the MCU or not. It's pretty clear that it's standalone when a majority of the other shows at least reference or give nods to the other movies and shows. I just don't see why it's so important something with such little impact just has to be included. Yes, it originally was made to be in the MCU and chances are it originally referenced other work. However, Marvel Television ending had obviously changed things. And I don't see the point in adding 10 episodes of a one off show that in the end has nothing to do with the MCU.

If it ties into the "Ghost Rider universe", it ties into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It doesn't matter whether it's important or not.

We don't know if it changed anything. Wait and see.

 

[Slyonic]

1. They were never "tied" to the Marvel Cinematic Universe. They were always a standalone show.
2. He said "that darker, sort of, part". What is "part" referring to? Not his shoes, I bet.
3. It's been hinted to have ties to the Marvel Cinematic Universe on Twitter.

Nothing said here is new information. You're inferring that not being connected means it's not canon. Kevin Feige said the Disney+ shows are the first to connect to the MCU proper. He essentially said "those other shows aren't connected directly". Helstrom is not connected directly.

I'm saying that, by this logic, none of the shows are canon, which obviously isn't true. Using this, we can assume that Helstrom is canon.

I guess I can agree that "Not being connected ≠ not canon".
Like I said, I want this to be canon. No one has seen the last 5 episodes, so I desperately hope for more references of the MCU. That would mean lots to ease my mind.
This was meant to lead in to a team-up of the more darker characters. There should be a tease at the end of the show, and seeing as the Ghost Rider show was next, it could be a tease of him. That would be the best thing and would definitely (at least for me) settle the entire debate.

I honestly don't see why it matters if Helstrom is in the MCU or not. It's pretty clear that it's standalone when a majority of the other shows at least reference or give nods to the other movies and shows. I just don't see why it's so important something with such little impact just has to be included. Yes, it originally was made to be in the MCU and chances are it originally referenced other work. However, Marvel Television ending had obviously changed things. And I don't see the point in adding 10 episodes of a one off show that in the end has nothing to do with the MCU.

True. The entire reason I love the MCU so much is because of all the references and tie-ins. If Helstrom doesn't have that, we're just adding another 10 episodes to our watch order. So let's hope it does have some (substantial) references.

 

[Rman]

If it ties into the "Ghost Rider universe", it ties into the Marvel Cinematic Universe. It doesn't matter whether it's important or not.

We don't know if it changed anything. Wait and see.

We don't know that it ties into the Ghost Rider universe. Most of the reviews mention the only tie-in being Roxxon which given it's in the comics, doesn't necessarily make it a part of the MCU. I think the show was early enough in production that any Ghost Rider references or hints were taken out. With Marvel Television ending and their planned shows failing, I feel like Hulu wants Helstrom to be seen as its own thing.

 

[Pro Bot]

We don't know that it ties into the Ghost Rider universe. Most of the reviews mention the only tie-in being Roxxon which given it's in the comics, doesn't necessarily make it a part of the MCU. I think the show was early enough in production that any Ghost Rider references or hints were taken out. With Marvel Television ending and their planned shows failing, I feel like Hulu wants Helstrom to be seen as its own thing.

He says in the video that it's tied to the Ghost Rider universe right after he says it ties into the Helstrom universe.

It's like when people say Joker is a character in the Batman universe when he's from the DC Universe.

 

[Rman]

He says in the video that it's tied to the Ghost Rider universe right after he says it ties into the Helstrom universe.

It's like when people say Joker is a character in the Batman universe when he's from the DC Universe.

That video is from over a year ago when the plan was to tie-in Helstrom and the Ghost Rider show. Like I said things have most likely changed given the current state of Marvel Television.

 

[Pro Bot]

This video? Pretty sure it's not, mate.

Release: October 9th, 2020
Description: "I recently asked..."

 

[Rman]

This video? Pretty sure it's not, mate.

I thought you were talking about the one you linked with Loeb. Either way the "ghost rider universe" just means they were ORIGINALLY planning on tying in with that show, which of course didn't happen.

 

[Slyonic]

I think with Ghost Rider universe and Helstrom universe, he means the lore and mythos surrounding those characters, from the comics.

 

[Pro Bot]

I thought you were talking about the one you linked with Loeb. Either way the "ghost rider universe" just means they were ORIGINALLY planning on tying in with that show, which of course didn't happen.

You can't prove it doesn't tie-in to Ghost Rider lore until it comes out. The video is discussing Helstrom as it is right now, and state it ties into the Ghost Rider universe.

Since it was supposed to tie in with Robbie Reyes, it makes sense that it will reference that Ghost Rider, which, again, suggests Marvel Cinematic Universe.

 

[Rman]

I think with Ghost Rider universe and Helstrom universe, he means the lore and mythos surrounding those characters, from the comics.

Which of course has nothing to do with saying the show is in the MCU.

You can't prove it doesn't tie-in to Ghost Rider lore until it comes out. The video is discussing Helstrom as it is right now, and state it ties into the Ghost Rider universe.

It can tie into the Ghost Rider lore without being a part of the MCU.

 

[Pro Bot]

Which of course has nothing to do with saying the show is in the MCU.

It can tie into the Ghost Rider lore without being a part of the MCU.

Yeah, but it will most likely tie into Robbie Reyes specifically, as it was supposed to crossover with his show, which would heavily suggest it's, under the assumption it's not, apart of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

 

[Rman]

Yeah, but it will most likely tie into Robbie Reyes specifically, as it was supposed to crossover with his show, which would heavily suggest it's, under the assumption it's not, apart of the Marvel Cinematic Universe.

Supposed to. Like I said things could have changed with the death of both the Ghost Rider show and Marvel Television in general