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Hawkeye101

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You all seem to have a hard time with Characters like Ultimate Tony stark and ideas that might make someone have a super-ability (like Hawkeye for instance). From the looks of it, all but the Punisher have abilities that are, 'above' human. The way I see it is this. In 616, ANYONE could be Iron Man. His powers were suit based. Anyone could have stepped into the suit and become Iron Man. Anyone with great bow marksman ship could become Hawkeye. Anyone still could become a Punisher. To me, (other than that un-godly healing factor that Tony has) these sort of things separate Tony, Clint, and Natasha from ordinary people. Jim Rhodes, Yelena Bolova, and I know somwbody else has dawned the Hawkeye motiff, are just my examples. Repeats are just not my thing (and yes they find ways around the super powers as well, Scarlet Spider, the first Yellow Jacket, etc). What makes 616 Hawkeye separate from the rest of humanity? Nothing, because anybody could become a Hwkeye themselves, with enough practice. Handing over tiny details to characters for their Ultimization is nothing bad in my book.
 

TheManWithoutFear

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Hawkeye101 said:
You all seem to have a hard time with Characters like Ultimate Tony stark and ideas that might make someone have a super-ability (like Hawkeye for instance). From the looks of it, all but the Punisher have abilities that are, 'above' human. The way I see it is this. In 616, ANYONE could be Iron Man. His powers were suit based. Anyone could have stepped into the suit and become Iron Man. Anyone with great bow marksman ship could become Hawkeye. Anyone still could become a Punisher. To me, (other than that un-godly healing factor that Tony has) these sort of things separate Tony, Clint, and Natasha from ordinary people. Jim Rhodes, Yelena Bolova, and I know somwbody else has dawned the Hawkeye motiff, are just my examples. Repeats are just not my thing (and yes they find ways around the super powers as well, Scarlet Spider, the first Yellow Jacket, etc). What makes 616 Hawkeye separate from the rest of humanity? Nothing, because anybody could become a Hwkeye themselves, with enough practice. Handing over tiny details to characters for their Ultimization is nothing bad in my book.
What's the point?
 

E

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Hawkeye101 said:
You all seem to have a hard time with Characters like Ultimate Tony stark and ideas that might make someone have a super-ability (like Hawkeye for instance).

Actually it's you who seem to have a hard time accepting that sometimes people are just regular people without superpowers.

Hawkeye101 said:
The way I see it is this. In 616, ANYONE could be Iron Man. His powers were suit based. Anyone could have stepped into the suit and become Iron Man.

Iron Man isn't who is getting ****ed over, it's Tony Stark.

Hawkeye101 said:
Anyone with great bow marksman ship could become Hawkeye. Anyone still could become a Punisher.

Like MwoF said, what's your point?

Hawkeye101 said:
What makes 616 Hawkeye separate from the rest of humanity? Nothing

Exactly. Well, besides his incredible skill with bow and arrow which is unparalelled by any human on the planet.

Hawkeye101 said:
Handing over tiny details to characters for their Ultimization is nothing bad in my book.

:roll:
 

TheManWithoutFear

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UltimateE said:
Actually it's you who seem to have a hard time accepting that sometimes people are just regular people without superpowers.



Iron Man isn't who is getting ****ed over, it's Tony Stark.



Like MwoF said, what's your point?



Exactly. Well, besides his incredible skill with bow and arrow which is unparalelled by any human on the planet.



:roll:

...Cmon Keymaster... lock it up.
 

cmdrjanjalani

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The appeal of many Marvel characters in general is that they happen to be regular people thrust into extraordinary situations, and this includes people who are just really good what they do without the need of superhuman powers. Frankly, this means that people liked reading stories about these Marvel characters because they can relate to them, and in some cases, find that these people can actually exist in the real world with just the right circumstances.

I've watched a couple of TV shows such as Ripley's Believe it or Not, and see people that have extraordinary intelligence and markmanship abilities, but doesn't mean I have to conclude that they had genetic enhancements or having their brain in their entire body. I've seen an archer on TV who was able to hit a target miles away and could only appear as a speck to the naked guy. I don't see the need for convoluted explanations for everyone. Hawkeye is just really good at practicing with his archery skills, dedicating countless hours of their lives honing his abilities, and Tony Stark could be simply a child prodigy just like Reed Richards who had a normal birth. Is that so bad? :roll:
 
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Hawkeye101

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cmdrjanjalani said:
The appeal of many Marvel characters in general is that they happen to be regular people thrust into extraordinary situations, and this includes people who are just really good what they do without the need of superhuman powers. Frankly, this means that people liked reading stories about these Marvel characters because they can relate to them, and in some cases, find that these people can actually exist in the real world with just the right circumstances.

I've watched a couple of TV shows such as Ripley's Believe it or Not, and see people that have extraordinary intelligence and markmanship abilities, but doesn't mean I have to conclude that they had genetic enhancements or having their brain in their entire body. I've seen an archer on TV who was able to hit a target miles away and could only appear as a speck to the naked guy. I don't see the need for convoluted explanations for everyone. Hawkeye is just really good at practicing with his archery skills, dedicating countless hours of their lives honing his abilities, and Tony Stark could be simply a child prodigy just like Reed Richards who had a normal birth. Is that so bad? :roll:

No, it's not, but my point is, People like the un-super-powered heroes we know and love are not unique. The one thing about the Green Lantern that turned me away is that ANYBODY CAN BE HIM. Alan Scott, Hal Jordan, Kyle Raynor, and John Stewart are all The Green Lantern, and frankly, it takes away from the mythology of the character. Iron Man works as a drunken womanizing CEO, not as a 'every white man is out to get me' black guy. I feel that the changes like Tony's brain body are at least symbols that 'lock' him into the Iron Man position. It says, Tony Stark is Iron Man, and not Jim Rhodes. Natasha Romanov is the Black Widow and not Yelena Bolova, Clinton Frances Barton is Hawkeye, not the man from Ripley's Believe it or Not. Superman can't be replaced, Captain America can't either, niether can Wasp, any mutant, or super-human, they have the power and in most cases it was product of freak accident and cannot be re-done. Or is unexplainable (a-hem Captain America).

Bass and I had once said that reality and actuality are two different things. In all actuality a branch of the US military would not hire a man extrodinary at the bow and arrow for a SUPER-HUMAN team. Even though a super-human team is not 'realistic'.

A realistic venture would be a way to say that this person is by far better than any human could ever hope to get because of this: (insert explination). So in actuality he makes for a good super-human for the team. I am NOT saying it should be this way, I AM saying that it makes for not only the better story and reasoning, and places firmly (or as firmly as the other heros we read about) Tony in the rocket boosters of Iron Man, of Natasha Romanov in the size seven's of The Black Widow, and Clint Barton in the boots of Hawkeye.

One more point, a lot of people in the Ultimate Univere has gotten SOMETHING more than their 616 counter-part

Cap: actual super-human, not peak human
Thor: has powers beyond Mjonlir, has own lightning and flight capabilities
Iron Man: Human brain
Black Widow: peak human instead of regular human
Hawkeye: we'll see in Wizard 170
Wasp: born with abilities
Colossus: Impervious to adamantium
Rogue: Gambit's powers
Hulk: it's in Hulk vs Wolverine
Scarlet Witch: major expansion of powers
Dazzler: doesn't need sound to generate light
(there's more, but I'm done)
 

DIrishB

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Hawkeye101 said:
Cap: actual super-human, not peak human
Thor: has powers beyond Mjonlir, has own lightning and flight capabilities

You're assuming that, I would say (until its confirmed or not whether Thor really is a God, that his powers are all due to Mjolnir)

Iron Man: Human brain
Black Widow: peak human instead of regular human
Hawkeye: we'll see in Wizard 170
Wasp: born with abilities
Colossus: Impervious to adamantium

Do we know for sure if he is? I mean I know Wolverine slashed at him once with his claws, but do we know for sure his steel skin is in fact strong enough to withstand adamantium?

Rogue: Gambit's powers
Hulk: it's in Hulk vs Wolverine
Scarlet Witch: major expansion of powers
Dazzler: doesn't need sound to generate light
(there's more, but I'm done)
 

TheManWithoutFear

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Hawkeye101 said:
No, it's not, but my point is, People like the un-super-powered heroes we know and love are not unique. The one thing about the Green Lantern that turned me away is that ANYBODY CAN BE HIM. Alan Scott, Hal Jordan, Kyle Raynor, and John Stewart are all The Green Lantern, and frankly, it takes away from the mythology of the character. Iron Man works as a drunken womanizing CEO, not as a 'every white man is out to get me' black guy. I feel that the changes like Tony's brain body are at least symbols that 'lock' him into the Iron Man position. It says, Tony Stark is Iron Man, and not Jim Rhodes. Natasha Romanov is the Black Widow and not Yelena Bolova, Clinton Frances Barton is Hawkeye, not the man from Ripley's Believe it or Not. Superman can't be replaced, Captain America can't either, niether can Wasp, any mutant, or super-human, they have the power and in most cases it was product of freak accident and cannot be re-done. Or is unexplainable (a-hem Captain America).

Bass and I had once said that reality and actuality are two different things. In all actuality a branch of the US military would not hire a man extrodinary at the bow and arrow for a SUPER-HUMAN team. Even though a super-human team is not 'realistic'.

A realistic venture would be a way to say that this person is by far better than any human could ever hope to get because of this: (insert explination). So in actuality he makes for a good super-human for the team. I am NOT saying it should be this way, I AM saying that it makes for not only the better story and reasoning, and places firmly (or as firmly as the other heros we read about) Tony in the rocket boosters of Iron Man, of Natasha Romanov in the size seven's of The Black Widow, and Clint Barton in the boots of Hawkeye.

One more point, a lot of people in the Ultimate Univere has gotten SOMETHING more than their 616 counter-part

Cap: actual super-human, not peak human
Thor: has powers beyond Mjonlir, has own lightning and flight capabilities
Iron Man: Human brain
Black Widow: peak human instead of regular human
Hawkeye: we'll see in Wizard 170
Wasp: born with abilities
Colossus: Impervious to adamantium
Rogue: Gambit's powers
Hulk: it's in Hulk vs Wolverine
Scarlet Witch: major expansion of powers
Dazzler: doesn't need sound to generate light
(there's more, but I'm done)
This is actually making my head hurt. You're taking away the key element that makes these characters so fascinating to the audience. Frankly, it's making me mad. You're fighting the biggest uphill battle I've ever seen on this board and would actually really appreciate it if this was never brought up again because I think this might be the worst application to comics ever. "No one is normal"? Where's the fun in that? And this is the exact mindset that went into Ultimate Iron Man. Much love for you Hawkeye but you are incredibly wrong and I'd love for this thread to be closed before any real heated argument occurs. Besides you've tried to bring this point up in like 4 other threads. :?
 

slimjim

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Hawkeye101 said:
Colossus: Impervious to adamantium
Now thats just a lie

"The only real question is whether my adamantium claws were tougher than the russian clowns organic steel"
Then you see colossus in slashed in pieces, but its was a virtual simulation so you never know.
 
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ProjectX2

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slimjim said:
Now thats just lie

"The only real question is whether my adamantium claws were tougher than the russian clowns organic steel"
Then you see colossus in slashed in pieces, but its was a virtual simulation so you never know.

But then in the Danger Room, Wolverine slices Colossus and we see nothing else happen.

But who cares. Close this thread. It's stupid.
 

Hawkeye101

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I'm NOT saying it SHOULD be this way, only that it holds them more firmly in place as their alter-ego. IF anything it replaces the old mythology with new mythology (which is kinda the point of the UU). But since some of you can seem to keep a cool head about this subject, then Okay, close the thread I guess.
 

Ice

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Hawkeye101 said:
I'm NOT saying it SHOULD be this way, only that it holds them more firmly in place as their alter-ego. IF anything it replaces the old mythology with new mythology (which is kinda the point of the UU). But since some of you can seem to keep a cool head about this subject, then Okay, close the thread I guess.
The point of the Ultimate Universe is NOT to "replace" anything from the 616.
 

marvelman

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Wait a minute, wait a minute...

You're telling me people on a message board have different opinions sometimes?

And that these opinions may totally be opposite from someone else's?

This calls for a hardcore discussion, and maybe, just maybe, a fight!!
 

Lynx

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Why do people constantly say "The UU was created to change things from 616"?

This is not the reason the UU was created.

The UU was created to bring classic characters into a contemporary setting without the 40 year continuity garbage. Yes, some things are bound to change, but some things that worked in 616 do not need to be changed for them to work in the UU.

This is why I hate the changes that were made to Tony Stark in UIM. This is why I don't like your idea about Hawkeye being "more than ordinary". There was nothing wrong with their 616 counterparts, therefore they could simply be "carbon copied" into the UU with little effort. You're wrong to say that the US Military wouldn't bring a normal human into a superhuman team. Hawkeye is the best marksman on Earth. Why would they put him into something less then extrodinary if they had a choice?
 
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moonmaster

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Hawkeye101 said:
The one thing about the Green Lantern that turned me away is that ANYBODY CAN BE HIM. Alan Scott, Hal Jordan, Kyle Raynor, and John Stewart are all The Green Lantern, and frankly, it takes away from the mythology of the character.
Wrong. Being a GL takes unbelievable willpower and bravery. Most normal people wouldn't even be able to get the ring to work. In GL: Rebirth tough, stubborn, old Green Arrow tries to use the ring and even he's barely able to muster a weak little arrow. Afterwards, he's so drained he can barely walk.

But lets get back on topic. (sounds weird coming from me, doesn't it?)

Your arguement that anybody could be Iron Man is pointless. Tony Stark is a genius who (looking at what Millar has said in U2 and disregarding UIM) overcame a lot of problems that all that intelligence and money caused. He overcame them and managed to become one of the richest, smartest, and most well-liked people on the planet. The Iron Man suit means nothing. Even if he had not created it, he still would've created some sort of technology in order to help mankind. Its not the tech, its the motivation. If many people had access to the kinds of technology Tony had access to, I'm guaranteeing you they'd misuse it. Tony is "different" because he was highly intelligent and rich and instead of using all that power to hurt people he used it to help them, which is something most people wouldn't.
 

TheManWithoutFear

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Lynx said:
Why do people constantly say "The UU was created to change things from 616"?

This is not the reason the UU was created.

The UU was created to bring classic characters into a contemporary setting without the 40 year continuity garbage. Yes, some things are bound to change, but some things that worked in 616 do not need to be changed for them to work in the UU.

This is why I hate the changes that were made to Tony Stark in UIM. This is why I don't like your idea about Hawkeye being "more than ordinary". There was nothing wrong with their 616 counterparts, therefore they could simply be "carbon copied" into the UU with little effort. You're wrong to say that the US Military wouldn't bring a normal human into a superhuman team. Hawkeye is the best marksman on Earth. Why would they put him into something less then extrodinary if they had a choice?
THANK YOU!!!!!! YOU ARE MY HERO!!!! :rockon:

Now sign up on boards across the net and spread your message because people don't get it.
 

cmdrjanjalani

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slimjim said:
Now thats just lie

"The only real question is whether my adamantium claws were tougher than the russian clowns organic steel"
Then you see colossus in slashed in pieces, but its was a virtual simulation so you never know.

I think the simulation uses fairly accurate versions of the X-Men in real life. And like the others said, the UU is not meant to replace 616. Changes are inevitable, but mostly the general essence of the characters are the same. I sincerely doubt that Ultimate Spider-Man would have succeeded if Bendis strayed too far from his original mythos.

Look at the other attempts of rehash. Stuff like the 2099 series did not do well because the characters end up too different that it turned off many readers. Change is good, but it also has to be balanced with things that are tried and true. No one wants a predictable, unimaginative rehash, but no one wants something that is radically different that just pins a familiar name or character in hopes of selling more than it can, as well.
 
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Hawkeye101

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cmdrjanjalani said:
I think the simulation uses fairly accurate versions of the X-Men in real life. And like the others said, the UU is not meant to replace 616. Changes are inevitable, but mostly the general essence of the characters are the same. I sincerely doubt that Ultimate Spider-Man would have succeeded if Bendis strayed too far from his original mythos.

Look at the other attempts of rehash. Stuff like the 2099 series did not do well because the characters end up too different that it turned off many readers. Change is good, but it also has to be balanced with things that are tried and true. No one wants a predictable, unimaginative rehash, but no one wants something that is radically different that just pins a familiar name or character in hopes of selling more than it can, as well.

Tony is the same though. He's still the Womanizing Drunk who is the CEO of a multi-billion dollar company who built a suit to better man kind, why should it matter HOW he got his intelligence as long as he uses it like the 616 counter-part?

And how about Storm being a thief instead of an African Psuedo-Goddess? Or Hawkeye a government agent instead of a common theif, or inspired by Iron Man? Or Colossus being apart of the Red Mafia instead of being a farm boy? Or Nightcarwler and Mystique not being related. Or Nightcrawler not being religious? Or Wanda and Pietro not being raised by gypsies? There seems to be no beef with these origins, is it because it does not tamper with their powers? The Characters are still the same from the 616 universe, but like you said, with subtle changes. What's the diff?
 

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