Should comic writers Unionize?

[Ultimate Houde]

I completely disagree for the same reasons that I am against unions in the first place.

People have the inalienable right to the pursuit of happiness. If you want something and it's not illegal, you have the right to get it. If you want a raise, better benefits, whatever, it's within your right to go after it/them.

But, as the saying goes, your rights end where another's nose begins. Nobody should have the right to affect the life and livelihood of people jsut to get what they want. Striking is unethical and quite frankly should be illegal.

No one has the right to step on another person to get what they want. And whether you agree or not, insurance, better pay - they are all *wants*. Wants and needs are totally different.

When you strike and create a works stoppage, you are stopping work for people who NEED to work in order to have income and pay their bills, eat, and clothe themselves.

How anyone can, in good conscience, go on strike is beyond my ability to comprehend.

Going after what you want is not greed. Stepping on others to do it most certainly is.

Completely agreed. Striking is no more than strong-arming the populace to let you get more money that you can't seem to be able to bargain with and get it yourself.

Unions are generally corrupt as well. They demand union fees from you, you don't have a choice. A union shows up, YOU JOIN OR YOU GET FIRED. Simple as that. I'd be pissed if you don't give me that choice of joining the union or not. That's why I fought the union out of trying to get into our job. They are pointless and just want my money. They say they are fighting for your benefits, rarely dos a situation come up that can't be solved through negotiations. Rarely. If that does happen, you know what? YOu go an get a new job, not sit on your *** outside the store and yell at people all day who just want to get a dime. I've seen people beaten almost to death fro crossing picket lines just because they want to make sure there kid is clothed and has food.

While on paper unions seem like a good idea, in reality, they are nothing more than a form of extortion.

 

[Ice]

I understand that strikes happen with unions and whatever, but the point is not about strikes, but about unions themselves.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Unions cause the strikes.

Cause and effect.

 

[Ice]

Unions cause the strikes.

Cause and effect.

That's nice.

Again, NOT the point.

I'm just talking about unions- what they are. Not what they can lead to things like strikes.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Ice are you being serious? Unions are nothing more than extortion rings. I said that in my post. They are led by a few, who seem to think they know what the majority want. They make you join them, you don't have a choice. You get fired if you don't join them. If comic book writers join a union, I won't write, because then I would need to be part of this union as well, I won't have a choice.. It's a ludicrous system, outdated and in serious need to be taken out of society.

They are legal mafia rings.

 

[Ice]

Ice are you being serious?

Yes.

Unions are nothing more than extortion rings. I said that in my post.

I know. I had posted before I read your post.

They are legal mafia rings.

Well that's your view.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

I know. I had posted before I read your post.

Okay, I was confused. Now I am not.

Well that's your view.

And that is my opinion, yes.

 

[Hibiki]

Im surprised you would say health insurance is a want when with poorer families it is indeed a necessity that is extremely out of reach and not a whole lot of jobs give health insurance. if you go straight through an insurance company rather than through a company you work for (gov't or decent business), the rates are high as hell. AS a 21 year old on her own, I spend about 2,500 on insurance a year (I don't get that back) just so my insurance can cover me for about a crappy deductible any time I see a doctor. Health insurance is hard to come by and good health insurance is even harder and that goes for the majority of the country. If anyone wants any kind of decent insurance plan and unionizing and striking is the only way, then they have the right to do so freely. You can demand for a raise or insurance all you want on your own, but it's you against a whole company that hardly gives a damn about what you think because in their eyes, you are replaceable. When you unionize it puts those big companies in a bind to conform to the peoples' demands and gives hard working people what they rightfully deserve.

If anything, everyone has the right to a good health insurance and again, I don't see that as a want, luxury or anything like that. It isn't an A/C unit or an extra vehicle you don't actually need. It's a plan for you/family that helps you when you're in a bind and I'm sure anyone could appreciate that.

 

[Jaggyd]

Im surprised you would say health insurance is a want when with poorer families it is indeed a necessity that is extremely out of reach and not a whole lot of jobs give health insurance. if you go straight through an insurance company rather than through a company you work for (gov't or decent business), the rates are high as hell. AS a 21 year old on her own, I spend about 2,500 on insurance a year (I don't get that back) just so my insurance can cover me for about a crappy deductible any time I see a doctor. Health insurance is hard to come by and good health insurance is even harder and that goes for the majority of the country. If anyone wants any kind of decent insurance plan and unionizing and striking is the only way, then they have the right to do so freely. You can demand for a raise or insurance all you want on your own, but it's you against a whole company that hardly gives a damn about what you think because in their eyes, you are replaceable. When you unionize it puts those big companies in a bind to conform to the peoples' demands and gives hard working people what they rightfully deserve.

If anything, everyone has the right to a good health insurance and again, I don't see that as a want, luxury or anything like that. It isn't an A/C unit or an extra vehicle you don't actually need. It's a plan for you/family that helps you when you're in a bind and I'm sure anyone could appreciate that.

You beat me to it. It truly seems that the current gov't administration sees universal healthcare/insurance as almost a luxury. Something that only the wealthy deserve, I've on more than one occasion have considered not going into the comic industry because there is no protection for employees that the other graphics fields offer.

You're lucky, as of the 2006-2007 year, I spent $3100 in insurance premiums. Life sucks as you get older.

 

[Foolsfolly]

Im surprised you would say health insurance is a want when with poorer families it is indeed a necessity that is extremely out of reach and not a whole lot of jobs give health insurance. if you go straight through an insurance company rather than through a company you work for (gov't or decent business), the rates are high as hell. AS a 21 year old on her own, I spend about 2,500 on insurance a year (I don't get that back) just so my insurance can cover me for about a crappy deductible any time I see a doctor. Health insurance is hard to come by and good health insurance is even harder and that goes for the majority of the country. If anyone wants any kind of decent insurance plan and unionizing and striking is the only way, then they have the right to do so freely. You can demand for a raise or insurance all you want on your own, but it's you against a whole company that hardly gives a damn about what you think because in their eyes, you are replaceable. When you unionize it puts those big companies in a bind to conform to the peoples' demands and gives hard working people what they rightfully deserve.

If anything, everyone has the right to a good health insurance and again, I don't see that as a want, luxury or anything like that. It isn't an A/C unit or an extra vehicle you don't actually need. It's a plan for you/family that helps you when you're in a bind and I'm sure anyone could appreciate that.

Vote for someone next year who wants to give out universal healthcare. Health insurance becomes much less important.

I really don't know where to side with this one.

I see both sides, and the major thing is that creators would get something for every time their character is used.

...

This could help creators and hurt comics.

Creators like Stan Lee, who've made a massive dent in comics, will make a killing in residuals for every book that used Spider-Man that month.

However, right now Bendis is using smaller and newer characters in Avengers, like the Hood, Sentry, and those. If Marvel had to dish out money for new unestablished characters to appear they would rather have older characters appear and thus, the very reason for new characters is gone so the company can save a buck.

Frankly, there are creator owned books out there and it's called "work for hire" for a reason. It's like any one of our jobs. We do it until we stop. Why should writing be any different?

Writers die poor.
We die poor.

More people die poor than rich.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

Good point guys, but how would having a union give people Health insurance? So now most people who are used to getting a majority of their paycheck have to pay union fees as well as health insurance?

There's upsides and downsides to all this. My girlfriend works in a nursing home, and what Foolsfolly said is correct.

Most people die poor. Most people die without anyone caring, and most people die of a simple disease that could have been cured easily enough if they had the money. Unions aren't going to stop that.

Universal healthcare is. I'm finally thinking of registering to vote, simply for that issue.

 

[E]

This is getting slightly off track, but the problem with universal health care is the same problem as any government-run program - inefficiency, bloat, and extreme incompetence. A large part of this is due to abuse of the system. Very easy to do when the government runs things, because it's so huge.

People act like universal health care will be free, and that is not at all the case. It becomes MORE expensive when it's government run. Ask Canadians about the inefficiency of government-run health care. People die waiting for procedures and care - how is that better? Many cross over to the US to get treatment.

 

[Caduceus]

It becomes MORE expensive when it's government run. Ask Canadians about the inefficiency of government-run health care. People die waiting for procedures and care - how is that better? Many cross over to the US to get treatment.

Ask Scandinavians about how its not really that difficult to do properly and very well.

There's been a very strong America-led movement away from Keynesian systems like subsidised healthcare, but there's an attitude in the US thats its actually this bizarre, insane system. Is it expensive? Yes. Is it suitable for a country like the US? Not really. But there's this really, to me, strange attitude about any kind of government support for healthcare. I intend to revisit this thread to make the point a little more coherently but this ...dislike, for lack of a better word, is really quite unique to America.

 

[Jaggyd]

Ask Scandinavians about how its not really that difficult to do properly and very well.

There's been a very strong America-led movement away from Keynesian systems like subsidised healthcare, but there's an attitude in the US thats its actually this bizarre, insane system. Is it expensive? Yes. Is it suitable for a country like the US? Not really. But there's this really, to me, strange attitude about any kind of government support for healthcare. I intend to revisit this thread to make the point a little more coherently but this ...dislike, for lack of a better word, is really quite unique to America.

it's that classic "Commies suck" mindset that many people still have.

 

[Fredrik Martinsson]

I haven't made any comment on this subject or the WGA strike, and I prbably won't again, but as a person who knows the whole history of the Union and the difference they have made (both for the common man and political), the steps they have taken to make people more equal and to make sure that everybody counts, not to mention the medical and psychological differences in countries that have a high rate of Union members in comparison the the countries that don't, well...... the ignorance and lack of real knowledge on this subject from people that have posted on the net quite frankly scares me.
I know first hand hand what they stand for and have information from people that experienced the situation in work places before Unions and I can say that what people post and reply is so far the truth that you can collect the posts, give it a topic and call it science fiction. Before you make assumptions and conclusions, at least get your facts straight.

Being in a Union can be compared to High School. Some people on this board can relate to getting your head showed in a toilet between classes and others might be able to image how it would be. So, would you want to stand alone with no help during that? Feeling completely useless? Or would you rather have someone sticking up for you, helping and doing its best to get you out of that situation?


Anyway, should comic writers Unionize? Simply, yes. 'nuff said.


So in conclusion, to all you anti union people, good luck and use lots of lubricant when you are getting screwed over in the future.

 

[Frapalino]

I'm in a Union and I get way overpaid for what I do.

I'm one of the 80% that actually works. It is nearly impossible to get fired from my job. Every Saturday there are guys that do absolutely nothing. I'm not exaggerating. They go to the break room and sit and watch college football. These guys are on overtime getting double or triple pay and complain when they get cut early. The same goes for most Sundays. The Union takes 40 bucks a month out of my check and I'm not entirely sure what that money goes to. If I ask about where that money goes somehow every time I call in for work there will be none for me. A couple months ago I was given a form to sign saying that I voluntarily give a dollar to support political campaigns. If I didn't "voluntarily" give that dollar there'd be no more work for me. The last election that money went to buying Gephardt for president Stickers and paying lobbyists. I completely didn't vote for Gephardt. So I was forced to give more money to a political candidate that I didn't support than one I did. When equipment gets old but still works fine people destroy it so that the company has to buy new gear. They do this because they are ********* and think the company is always trying to screw them. Unions protect lazy asses and there are absolutely no rewards for working hard. It is all based on seniority. There is no upward movement with Unions. They don't offer or fight for college reimbursement because once you get an education then you'll leave the Union. They want you uneducated so the few at the top with an education can have power. Jimmy Hoffa Jr. the Teamster President I was forced to elect makes over 200 thousand a year. That has to be well over twice what any of the people he represents make. It's all of those people he represents money that he gets. I could punch a guy in the face in front of everyone and get arrested all on the dock and not be fired. All that would happen is it gets reviewed by the company and the Union leaders and then I might get a write up. The nearly same exact situation would have to happen twice again within a year for me to get fired. And that probably wouldn't stick if I made a big enough fuss. Guys write all over the bathroom walls. There is absolutely no respect for any company property. Three guys often do one mans work and if you do the other guys part of the work just to hurry it along it is not a good thing and people get pissed. I'm forced to buy 15 dollar shirts that I have to wear to work just to get them ruined. The general idea on the dock is that if you work slower and do less work then it will last longer and that means they will have to higher more men. When what it really means is that customers will use UPS and get their freight on time, not damaged, and pay less. They force me to go to Union meetings on the first Sunday of every month at 10 in the morning. I often work until 2 or 3 in the morning live an hour away from work and an hour away from the Union Hall and then I have to be at work pretty much right after the meeting. So I get no sleep on those days. All so I can listen to a bunch of propaganda. Here's how they usually go. A Preacher gets up and gives some sort of sermon and prays. A Union gets up and curses a lot and tells us how much the company's suck. Some local democrat running for some office or getting support for some proposition gets up there and talks, a few more Union guys get up they tell the company will screw us out of our health benefits, and tell us how they are spending my money, and then we say some pledge. We leave and there are guys trying to sell you BBQ and Union shirts and caps. It's a real blast. All of the money they take out of my check adds up to around a two weeks worth of work. So I work two weeks a year just so I can work. It pisses me off.

Unions completely screw up the New York City school system and only recently have the rules changed and the school system has improved vastly.

It pretty much boils down to Unions are wildly inefficient and bleed the company of money any way possible.

I put up with this crap because it is an excellent job to put me through school and the benefits are pretty great.

I'm glad February is my last month. I'll probably get let go and my tires slashed for posting this. Hell, for thinking this.

This post is rambling and incoherent and not a third of want I want to say.

 

[Ultimate Houde]

No but it shows what it is like to work for a Union

 

[E]

I'm in a Union and I get way overpaid for what I do.

I'm one of the 80% that actually works. It is nearly impossible to get fired from my job. Every Saturday there are guys that do absolutely nothing. I'm not exaggerating. They go to the break room and sit and watch college football. These guys are on overtime getting double or triple pay and complain when they get cut early. The same goes for most Sundays. The Union takes 40 bucks a month out of my check and I'm not entirely sure what that money goes to. If I ask about where that money goes somehow every time I call in for work there will be none for me. A couple months ago I was given a form to sign saying that I voluntarily give a dollar to support political campaigns. If I didn't "voluntarily" give that dollar there'd be no more work for me. The last election that money went to buying Gephardt for president Stickers and paying lobbyists. I completely didn't vote for Gephardt. So I was forced to give more money to a political candidate that I didn't support than one I did. When equipment gets old but still works fine people destroy it so that the company has to buy new gear. They do this because they are ********* and think the company is always trying to screw them. Unions protect lazy asses and there are absolutely no rewards for working hard. It is all based on seniority. There is no upward movement with Unions. They don't offer or fight for college reimbursement because once you get an education then you'll leave the Union. They want you uneducated so the few at the top with an education can have power. Jimmy Hoffa Jr. the Teamster President I was forced to elect makes over 200 thousand a year. That has to be well over twice what any of the people he represents make. It's all of those people he represents money that he gets. I could punch a guy in the face in front of everyone and get arrested all on the dock and not be fired. All that would happen is it gets reviewed by the company and the Union leaders and then I might get a write up. The nearly same exact situation would have to happen twice again within a year for me to get fired. And that probably wouldn't stick if I made a big enough fuss. Guys write all over the bathroom walls. There is absolutely no respect for any company property. Three guys often do one mans work and if you do the other guys part of the work just to hurry it along it is not a good thing and people get pissed. I'm forced to buy 15 dollar shirts that I have to wear to work just to get them ruined. The general idea on the dock is that if you work slower and do less work then it will last longer and that means they will have to higher more men. When what it really means is that customers will use UPS and get their freight on time, not damaged, and pay less. They force me to go to Union meetings on the first Sunday of every month at 10 in the morning. I often work until 2 or 3 in the morning live an hour away from work and an hour away from the Union Hall and then I have to be at work pretty much right after the meeting. So I get no sleep on those days. All so I can listen to a bunch of propaganda. Here's how they usually go. A Preacher gets up and gives some sort of sermon and prays. A Union gets up and curses a lot and tells us how much the company's suck. Some local democrat running for some office or getting support for some proposition gets up there and talks, a few more Union guys get up they tell the company will screw us out of our health benefits, and tell us how they are spending my money, and then we say some pledge. We leave and there are guys trying to sell you BBQ and Union shirts and caps. It's a real blast. All of the money they take out of my check adds up to around a two weeks worth of work. So I work two weeks a year just so I can work. It pisses me off.

Unions completely screw up the New York City school system and only recently have the rules changed and the school system has improved vastly.

It pretty much boils down to Unions are wildly inefficient and bleed the company of money any way possible.

I put up with this crap because it is an excellent job to put me through school and the benefits are pretty great.

I'm glad February is my last month. I'll probably get let go and my tires slashed for posting this. Hell, for thinking this.

This post is rambling and incoherent and not a third of want I want to say.

Post of the Day.

And I don't think I will award any more for the rest of the month.

Hats off to you, Frapalino.

 

[Hibiki]

Post of the Day.

And I don't think I will award any more for the rest of the month.

Hats off to you, Frapalino.

omg hates y00 rac1s+!

 

[Gothamite]

Unions would have prevented the whole idiotic Superboy mess going on right now... As well as prevented a whole lot of writers from dying poor and penniless after getting screwed out of creative rights.

Absolutely. I assume you're referring to Jerry & Joe in both instances?

 

[ourchair]

Absolutely. I assume you're referring to Jerry & Joe in both instances?

Incidentally, recognizing you as a DC fan, I highly recommend you pick up Gerard Jones' Men of Tomorrow: Geeks, Gangsters & The Birth of the Comic Book, a comprehensive history of Jewish-American culture during the early 20th century and its influence on the development of modern American pop culture.

It focuses squarely on the lives of Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster as well as business history of DC/National and the personalities behind it. It's an excellent read and goes to great pains to give every person a fair shake --- whether its the reputedly thuggish Harry Donnenfeld or the oft-demonized Fredric Wertham --- by scrutinizing the highly contrasting accounts given by the people who knew them.

I think you'll totally dig it.