The Overlord
Well-Known Member
With all the crap that has happened in the Ultimate Universe recently, should the Ultimate Universe have ended after ultimates Vol. 2
Should the Ultimate Universe have ended after ultimates Vol. 2?
- Thread starter The Overlord
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Pearl
Well-Known Member
No. It could have continued to be great.
But I would rather it ended than continued with Loeb and Kirkman, etc.
I think now that one title is officially going to be canceled and with a higher focus on quality, some things can be salvaged.
But I would rather it ended than continued with Loeb and Kirkman, etc.
I think now that one title is officially going to be canceled and with a higher focus on quality, some things can be salvaged.
fenway
Well-Known Member
I think Pearl has posted an optimistic opinion, and I appreciate that. I am hopeful that you are right, because at its best (For me - Ult 1 and Ult 2, Millar's UFF, BKV's UXM, and fairly recent USM), it has been better than 616.
Yes, it should have.
However, if they had changed things up it wouldn't have had to be that way.
If they would have insisted on only big name creative teams and ditched the ongoings in favor of event-based miniseries...es it would have been great. But instead they dumbed it down and it's failing fast.
However, if they had changed things up it wouldn't have had to be that way.
If they would have insisted on only big name creative teams and ditched the ongoings in favor of event-based miniseries...es it would have been great. But instead they dumbed it down and it's failing fast.
The Overlord
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but the pacing is so fast in the UU they burn through 40 years worth of stories. So in order to maintain anything of quality, they would have come up with much better twists to the ultimate characters then they have using now. I'm look at UXM, what important characters do they have left to introduce?
Heck at this point, how many Ultimate characters are better or even equal to their 616 counterparts?
But who is a big name? People seemed to have thought Jeph Loeb was a big name (people seemed to like Long Halloween) , but he didn't turn out so well.
Besides Ultimate human, what kind of events minis could you have created?
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ProjectX2
Don't expect me to take you with me when I go to s
My version of the Ultimate Universe ends after Ultimates 2.
Dr.Strangefate
He Sees You When You're Sleeping. He Knows When Yo
Had Miller intended to keep going on The Ultimates (this new War heroes or whatever seems to confirm he had plans for the future of that title), it could have been great.
Honestly, and this is such a horrible thing to say that I have to apologize in advance, Jeph Loeb seems to have lost his magic touch after the death of his son. I mean, i think its understandable, something like that would completely change me as well, but I bet if you showed Loeb of five years ago a copy of Ultimates 3 with the name blacked out he would say "What is this ****?" This sort of material seems to be from a different person entirely than the man who wrote Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Daredevil: Yellow, and Spider-Man: Blue.
Honestly, and this is such a horrible thing to say that I have to apologize in advance, Jeph Loeb seems to have lost his magic touch after the death of his son. I mean, i think its understandable, something like that would completely change me as well, but I bet if you showed Loeb of five years ago a copy of Ultimates 3 with the name blacked out he would say "What is this ****?" This sort of material seems to be from a different person entirely than the man who wrote Long Halloween, Dark Victory, Daredevil: Yellow, and Spider-Man: Blue.
This is true. But I'd like to (perhaps naively) think that if he were Ultimizing an event it might be better. I was thinking more along the lines of not giving long fill-in roles to guys like Kirkman and Carey. Get Frank Miller to do some Daredevil stuff. Get Morrison to do...well, just about anything.
As far as event minis, it would basically be Ultimizing MU events. Kree-Skrull War, Secret Wars, etc. Take the time to plan things out for the long haul.
Foolsfolly
Well-Known Member
Last year I would have said no.
This year...yes. It should end. They keep trying to fix it but they only make things worse.
This year...yes. It should end. They keep trying to fix it but they only make things worse.
Void.M
Well-Known Member
Joe Kalicki
Well-Known Member
Just because you guys don't like it doesn't mean other people don't and it should end. If you want to consider it over at Ultimates 2, then stop buying and reading it, but there's no reason it shouldn' be published anymore just because you personally don't enjoy it.
The Overlord
Well-Known Member
But the fact is a big name doesn't mean instant sucess. Frankly at this point, Frank Miller has gone insane and I wouldn't want him to touch DD, Ultimate or anywhere.
Also I think just ultimizing old Marvel events would be a mistake. The UU is already too close to the 616 U and the writers seemed chained to repeating old stories, like all this Jean Grey/Phoenix non sense, why does she have to be the Phoenix in the UU?
I would rather they create their own new events.
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Foolsfolly
Well-Known Member
Agreed with Overlord here.
The reason it's so dull is because it's just retellings instead of stripping away character's to their cores and telling entertaining stories.
And that's all the UU's success was. Marvel has amazing characters but they've been around for 40+ years and have collected quite a few stupid stories and contrived plots and reveals 20 years after the fact and retcons...this stripped those away were Hulk didn't have multiple personalities; just Banner and Hulk.
In that respect, writing a good Ultimate Spider-Man or a good Spider-Man story comes down to the same thing....writing a good Spider-Man story. In the UU they have this odd pressure to relive old stories or bring in every character that hadn't been touched yet...but that's strip mining not really creating.
The reason it's so dull is because it's just retellings instead of stripping away character's to their cores and telling entertaining stories.
And that's all the UU's success was. Marvel has amazing characters but they've been around for 40+ years and have collected quite a few stupid stories and contrived plots and reveals 20 years after the fact and retcons...this stripped those away were Hulk didn't have multiple personalities; just Banner and Hulk.
In that respect, writing a good Ultimate Spider-Man or a good Spider-Man story comes down to the same thing....writing a good Spider-Man story. In the UU they have this odd pressure to relive old stories or bring in every character that hadn't been touched yet...but that's strip mining not really creating.
Gamma Man
Well-Known Member
I completley agree.
When I started reading the UU, I started reading UXM first. I liked it because it had a darker side to it (well at least the first volume.) It was still Magneto and the X-Men, but it seemed different.
The whole Pheonix thing was like re-reading a classic.
I still the UU should exsist, but only in bi-monthly specials.
The Overlord
Well-Known Member
I think if they are going to retell these stories, then they need to give it a really big twist, so that it feels different. I mean why not make Rogue the Phoenix, if you *have* to have a Phoenix.
though I don't think they do enough with the characters they already introduced. 616 Electro is a stupid thug, so ultimate Electro is.... a stupid thug, only far less interesting. Come on, give some these characters more interesting twists.
When Pete was with Kitty, that was interesting, because it was different from 616 Spidey.
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Gamma Man
Well-Known Member
They really didn't need a Pheonix, she didn't add anything new to it.
True. Make him Santa Claus.
Yes, it was. Pete's love life was WAY too similar to the 616. Only diffrence is, it was high school drama. In 616, it's college drama.
Kitty was a distraction from Gwen Stacey dying (again).
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DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
I'm just interested to see what approach Mavel will be taking with the Ultimate universe post-Ultimatum. Everyone keeps talking about one of the ongoings being cancelled (UFF and UXM suck critically speaking, but they still sell a respectable amount of copies every month), which I honestly doubt. Then again, it would probably help the Ultimate universe as a whole (in terms of going along like E said: less ongoing series, more mini-series).
I'm torn here. I've loved the Ultimate universe since I discovered it, but the past few years have surely tested that love. I'm the first to admit the level of quality has dropped severely over the years. USM is now a pretty good read, but UFF and UXM are jokes, and Ultimates 3 is nothing short of a travesty. The Ultimate minis have mostly been let-downs lately as well (Ultimate Human I liked, but Ultimate Iron Man II and so far Ultimate Origins are unimpressive at best).
Post-Ultimatum, I'm not sure what we're going to see.
I'm torn here. I've loved the Ultimate universe since I discovered it, but the past few years have surely tested that love. I'm the first to admit the level of quality has dropped severely over the years. USM is now a pretty good read, but UFF and UXM are jokes, and Ultimates 3 is nothing short of a travesty. The Ultimate minis have mostly been let-downs lately as well (Ultimate Human I liked, but Ultimate Iron Man II and so far Ultimate Origins are unimpressive at best).
Post-Ultimatum, I'm not sure what we're going to see.
The Overlord
Well-Known Member
No they didn't need Phoenix, but if they insisited on having it, don't make it Jean Grey.
laugh if want, but part of the reason Ultimate human worked (besides not being based on a pre-existing story, is because it gave a kinda goofy character a good enough twist to be interesting in the UU.
Relying on the same villains as the 616 universe who are already overexposed, doesn't help matters either.
Killing her off was another mistake.
mike3717
Well-Known Member
I kind of think it is cool when the re-tell old stories with a new twist to them. And even if the event mirrors 616, the new characterization of the Ultimate characters makes it feel new and different. Ultimate Proteus in UXM comes to mind. If you read the 616 version of that story, it is really not all that different from the Ult version. But the small changes and different characterizations of the X-men make it cool and a good read.
I think the big difference is that when the UU started out, they didn't just mindlessly strip mine 616. They took stories and events and re-worked them but they took time to add characterization and build them up. They made changes that were necessary but they left enough of the 616 U in there to make it still cool. Plus they also added new stories to build their characters. Stories like Ultimate War were great.
Now it just seems rushed. Characters don't get proper build up or maintain the voice that has been established. the 616 U is just strip mined for quick (and poor) 3-4 issue arcs and then discarded. Ult Apocolypse, Shadow King, and Thanos were a few that I felt that were very short changed in terms of the type of stories that could have been told with them.
