Star Wars Episode VII - The Force Awakens Discussion [SPOILERS]

[Captain Canuck]

I just saw it. I'm not finished processing it, but I liked it. I'll post my thoughts later. I want to hear yours.

Discuss away!

 

[ProjectX2]

I can't remember how threads/posts appear in the sidebar, so I'm going to try to be as vague as possible for now:

I love the main new characters - Rey and Finn in particular are fantastic protagonists, Poe is already the coolest pilot ever, Kylo Ren is what Anakin should have been and BB-8 is adorable and awesome all at once. The other new characters - Maz, Snoke, Hux and Phasma - are less impressive, but I assume they will all be expanded upon in the sequels. I thought Phasma was especially disappointing - the marketing made her seem like she was going to be the secondary antagonist, but she was barely in the movie and didn't really do anything besides give up almost immediately. Why wasn't she the Stormtrooper who fought Finn?

Regarding the older characters, Han and Chewbacca were as great as ever and it's nice to see an enthusiastic Harrison Ford again (even if it was obvious what was going to happen to him considering how happy he was to promote the movie). I like the idea of General Leia and while I would have liked to have seen more of Luke, I understand why he wasn't in it much (and that ending gave me goosebumps). I would have liked to have seen R2 a bit more too (and him randomly waking up at the end needed more of an explanation) but it had just the right amount of 3PO.

Plotwise, I don't think it's anything special - it's a Star Wars movie, and I think the reason why it succeeds is because the characters are fantastic and memorable, something the prequels were mostly lacking. I had a few minor issues with the movie (the stuff on the freighter with the two gangs and the alien cargo felt really out of place), but overall it was a fantastic experience to see a legitimately good Star Wars movie on a big screen with an excited audience and it was a great start to the new trilogy. I have no doubt Rian Johnson will deliver the best Star Wars movie since Empire Strikes Back before Colin Trevorrow probably makes a mess of it all.

And Rey is obviously Luke's daughter, right?

 

[Captain Canuck]

Okay, so I liked it. I really did.

But I WAS disappointed by aspects of it.

Mostly I was disappointed that they didn't explain almost anything about how they got to where they were, not even in the opening crawl. The rebels defeated the Empire, right? So why are we right back where we started? How is there another Empire-like thing with enough resources to construct a star-killer planet? Did the Empire break into two factions after RotJ? Did the two factions make an uneasy peace? Did the New Republic realize that they needed to stand against the First Order, but couldn't afford to do so officially, so they funded the Resistance? That would make sense, but it wasn't really explained. And because it wasn't really explained, this movie just felt like a rehash of A New Hope. Back to square one. That victory thirty years ago apparently meant nothing.

I also hated that Han and Leia weren't together. Their "emotional" scenes together (and apart) sort of rang hollow for me because of that. And the scene between Han and Rylo Ken didn't have as much impact either.

I agree that the whole part on Han and Chewie's freighter with the gangs and the aliens was kind of dumb. It should have been shed for some more narrative exposition.

How did Finn get into a lightsaber duel with a sith and hold his own? Maybe we can excuse Rey, but Finn?

Does the Star Killer planet actually kill stars to power up it's canon? They kind of implied that, but never really addressed it.

And yeah, what the heck was with Phasma? She was barely in it. Although, I suppose they'll use her more later.

Those are my gripes. As for what I liked:
I loved most of the characters. Rey, Finn, and Kylo Ren were awesome. Especially Kylo Ren. He looks like he's going to be a great villain. BB-8 was great, and Poe was a cool pilot.

I'm intrigued to see where this goes next, what happened in the intervening years (maybe they will answer some of my gripes), seeing Luke train Rey, and finding out her past (daughter of Luke? or Han and Leia too?) Seeing where Finn's character goes. And Kylo Ren's training at the hands of Snoke.

The visuals were awesome. The dog fights were fun. The designs on everything were sleek and cool.

Overall, this felt like a set-up movie for the larger story. They introduced a lot of new characters, reintroduced the old characters, set up the conflict, and had a rushed climax that mostly worked even if it was pretty much the same as A New Hope.

Three-and-a-half stars. Rounded up to four because 3.5 isn't an option and because it was SO MUCH better than the prequels.

 

[Captain Canuck]

This article sums it up better than I could.

 

[ProjectX2]

This article sums it up better than I could.

I don't particularly like Devin Faraci (based on his Twitter account) but that is indeed a good review.

 

[DIrishB]

I really enjoyed it. As said, easily the best SW film since Empire, and it achieved everything it aimed to. It brought back the original cast members in smaller supporting roles, introduced truly charismatic and likable new characters in Rey, Finn, and Poe, and Kylo Ren to a degree (I liked Kylo Ren up until he took his mask off and went all emo, but I still liked him overall as a new antagonist). BB-8 is pure joy. Abrams and Arndt did a great job.

It wasn't perfect, but no film is, let alone Star Wars (much as I love the franchise). However, it was fantastic and fun, memorable, and pulled at the heart strings well when it wanted to. And that ending really did give me goosebumps.

Speaking of that ending, Arndt discusses early version of the script and how Luke played a much more prominent part, but he worried that due to Luke's presence he thought it detracted from the new characters, which I can understand from seeing it on paper. But seeing TFA, and how well Ridley and Boyega carried their scenes, even impressively so, I don't think the big guy will do too much overshadowing.

So, pretty much everyone is probably thinking it, but Rey is likely Luke's daughter.

1.) Early on she's shown to be a tech-head and amazing pilot (in the scene where she and Finn take the Millenium Falcon off Jakku), much like both Anakin and Luke were.

2.) Han and Leia both gave her knowing glances a few times (more with Han since he spent more time onscreen with her). It's doubtful she's Leia and Han's kid since they already acknowledged Ben Solo as Kylo. It's possible Rey is Ben's sister, but I doubt it.

3.) The insane strength in the Force that Rey exhibits is definitely a Skywalker trait.

4.) Rey's flashbacks and history of being left on Jakku very well may coincide with Ben Solo's turn to the Dark Side and the rise of the Knights of Ren/destruction of Luke's Jedi Academy. I think Rey is indeed Luke's daughter, and as a child received a fair amount of Jedi training from him (and perhaps a treasure trove of Jedi Holocrons that he might've found after RotJ...?). When Ben Solo turned and destroyed the school, I think Luke wiped her mind to make her forget her identity and family (including himself, her cousin, and her aunt and uncle), her Force powers/training, etc, and took her to Jakku to hide her (much like he was hidden on Tatooine) from Ren. What training she had was likely triggered from Ren's delving into her mind with his powers. I need to see it again and pay attention to him more closely after he takes his helmet off in that interrogation/torture scene between them, to see if he gives any hint of recognition. I seem to remember him being confused, so perhaps he thought Luke's daughter was dead (which would make sense).

5.) The Force is all about balance. During the Prequel Trilogy, the Jedi were the premiere power in the galaxy, the Sith only two: Master and Apprentice (Plagueis and Sidious, Sidious and Maul, Sidious and Dooku, Sidious/Emperor and Vader, and finally Snoke and Ren). There are, however, more Dark Side users, as indicated by the Inquisitors (at least pre-A New Hope), and now the Knights of Ren in TFA period. So, the Force was unbalanced in favor of the Light Side, until Order-66 wiped them almost all out. The Dark Side (embodied by the two Sith, Sidious and Vader) was strengthened not in how many Dark Side Force users there were, but the negativity, anguish, anger, hate, distrust, etc that the Empire bred. That authoritarian, harsh approach was intended by Sidious/The Emperor, as a way to feed the Dark Side without presenting any possible competition (even though the only real competition the Emperor had was Vader, he was a careful and Machiavellian puppet master in most regards). The Force was balanced for a time after the Battle of Endor, and Luke began his Jedi Academy and the Light Side became the stronger element again, necessitating a resurgence in the Dark Side, hence Ben Solo recruiting like-minded individuals, turning on Luke, and forming the Knights of Ren. Now, the Dark Side is once again overpowered, and the Light Side (personified in Rey) again brought some sense of balance to the Force (for the time being).[/spoiler]

This Yin and Yang, back and forth is intrinsic in most religious, historical, mythological aspects of human nature, and also conveniently serves as a never ending internal explanation for repeating the cycle (new movies and endless novels, comics, video games, etc)... I sound so cynical but I love it. It does provide and never ending cycle though for sequels, prequels, interquels, etc.

I fully expect after what Ren did in this film, finally cutting his ties to the Light Side, will result in a much more powerful, and even more intimidating character in the next two films. Many are complaining Ren didn't present enough challenge to Rey and Finn, but the dude had been shot with a Crossbow by an enraged Wookiee, still fought off Finn easily, and finally got worked over by Rey due to her Force power majoojoo.

 

[DIrishB]

Didn't need the spoiler tags? Ok.

Was just trying to be extra careful. I know it's a thread obviously marked Spoilers, but was just being extra careful.





Anyway, here's the reason R2-D2 "awakened" (see what I did there?) at the end...

I guess it sort of makes sense, if a bit of a cop out. I can forgive it though. The movie is pure joy. It isn't perfect, but it stands with the Original Trilogy, easily, in terms of overall quality, charm, etc.

 

[Ice]

I loved the movie and I'll get more into my thoughts later, but here's how I rank all the films at the moment:


V-IV-VII-VI-III-I-II

 

[E]

I would have liked to have seen R2 a bit more too (and him randomly waking up at the end needed more of an explanation)

I didn't like that either but JJ Abrams explained it as BB-8 woke him up saying he has a piece of the map and asking of R2 had the rest of it. he expanded on that as saying R2 just took a while to "wake up" - it's a little awkward but that's what it is.

And Rey is obviously Luke's daughter, right?

I'm 50/50 on this. On one hand it's too obvious and a Jedi would not form the type of relationship that would be required to have children. On the other hand her storyline mirrors Luke's and Kathleen Kennedy has said that the new movies will continue the Skywalker story, so assuming she means it will mostly focus on that story maybe she is (along with her cousin Ben).

The best part of the movie is when the lightsaber flies by Kylo Ren's face into her hands and she ignites it. I had chills. She's such a great character.

And Kylo Ren is a great villain. I loved the bit with him punching himself in his wounds in order to use his pain to strengthen his powers. Imagine Vader doing something like that.

Didn't need the spoiler tags?

You don't need to mark spoilers if it's about the subject in the title of the thread and the title is marked spoilers.

 

[SSJmole]

I got dragged to this today by a friend. I voted 2 stars (i wanted to go 2.5 but couldn't). Why? Where the hell do I begin.


Kylo Ren - He's a darth vader fanboy that uses a dumb voice (seriously I think i dark knight rises bane finally has been beat on dumb voice) and has the dumbest lightsaber ever. Wow. I normally love the bad guys in star wars but my god this is the worst villain in the 7 movies. Also that backstory he's a worse version of Darth Caedus/Jacen Solo really? he couldn't even be original.

Rey - Way to perfect. I don't want to use the term "Mary sue" as that's thrown around way too much so i'll say "Bland" as she did force feats faster and better than Luke (fair enough he wasn't the best) and Anakin (THE CHOSEN ONE) and she had no flaw. Luke was too headstrong at times or just too naive, Anakin messed up a lot. With Rey, better pilot than Han, Better force than any rookie in the films, Picks up gun and fires better than finn.

Finn - He saved the film IMO as I was worried going in he was just kyle katarn but he wasn't. He was annoying at time when he would swap to cyborg in teen titans go "BOOYA" mode as that's as annoying as "yippee"

Captain Phasma - They made a bigger deal of her in interviews , previews ect... but she did nothing of note. Disappointed as I hoped she'd be as cool as Jango


Story - Episode IV without the heart , memorable quotes or likeable characters .... great. It didn't feel like star wars at all as it had none of the fantasy. Star wars was always fantasy/adventure with scifi backdrop. This was just rushing through scenes to get to next action peice. Like look at when Rey found lightsaber. It was boom boom boom boom through the visions. Look at when Luke was given his. It was a beautiful story told to you by Obi and it hooks you you listen and feel the heart.

Also han solos death was dumb as it felt it was just done to recreate the Obi in a new hope scene and that's a slap in the face of han solo fans more than the "shot first" thing ever was.

The look - The effects looked great my only complaint is Don't like the new stormtropper helmets, Kylo Ren's look at stupid lightsaber. The rest look good.



If i had to rate the film in terms of SW I go V - IV - III - II - VI - VII - I , so not the worst SW movie as phantom menace is worse (though it had better characters overall) but not that good in terms of SW

 

[ProjectX2]

I got dragged to this today by a friend.

 

[Captain Canuck]

If i had to rate the film in terms of SW I go V - IV - III - II - VI - VII - I , so not the worst SW movie as phantom menace is worse (though it had better characters overall) but not that good in terms of SW

You like return of the Jedi less than episodes 2 and 3?

I think my ranking is VI - V - IV - VII - [BIG GAP] - III - I - II

But it's hard to really rank the original three. I love them all. RotJ was the first one I ever saw, which is probably why it's first for me, if I'm honest.

And the prequels are ranked by which are less awful, but they're all awful.

 

[ProjectX2]

V > IV > VI > VII > III > II > I.

I pretty much love the first three equally.

 

[SSJmole]

You like return of the Jedi less than episodes 2 and 3?

Yeah. Luke/vader/emperor scenes were good. But the rest? Ewoks , Harrison ford acting bored to be there , another death star run and more just made me not like VI. It's cool if others like VI but for me yeah VI was almost as bad as I but is saved by the scenes I mentioned

 

[wyokid]

The best way I've heard this described is as "its a competent Star Wars film". It's not great, it's not terrible, but it's there. It's tells it's story well, the characters are likable, but it also plays it incredibly safe and could almost be seen as a reboot. It definitely rehashs enough stuff. Long story short, I should have waited for home release. 7/10

I should also mention the only films of Star Wars I love are Empire and Revenge. A New Hope is too quippy, Phantom and Jedi are too childish, and Attack is a complete train wreck. Don't get me wrong, I really love Star Wars and saw it young enough that I didn't have "I am your father" already spoiled for me, but I don't really have the same love for the original trilogy as everyone else and my favorite part of the prequels is the fresh, but familiar look everything has. You can see how the technology eventually evolved into the OT tech. Which is why with this movie I didn't want the original trilogy which is all we got in this. I groaned a lot during this, like when the Falcon just happened to be on Jakku right near our heroes. The references weren't cute, the Falcon and it's owners were shoehorned in, and the whole thing can be summarized by that scene where they compared the Starkiller base to the Death Star. This was bigger, bloated, and safe rehash of the original trilogy without the heart and charm. They're all likable, but I don't care about any of the new characters. I was hoping Finn died in the forest because that was the most significant thing his character had done for me at that point, Phasma was so pointless that I'm actually laughing at how huge of a push she got, Rey WAS a Mary Sue, Poe felt like a footnote, Kylo Ren seemed to be the only character that had anything going for him and he was ultra whiney and edgy, and I've never cared about Han or even Leia really so to have Luke show up at the VERY end of the film with no lines to end was incredibly obnoxious. The movie LITERALLY ended on a cliff and I don't think anyone in my theater realized that's why I was laughing when the credits rolled.


Also

10. The Clone Wars (movie)
9. Attack of the Clones
8. The Phantom Menace
7. Return of the Jedi
6. A New Hope
5. Rebels
4. The Force Awakens
3. Revenge of the Sith
2. The Clone Wars (show)
1. Empire Strikes Back

 

[DIrishB]

I'm getting tired of the recycled "Mary Sue" comments regarding Rey.

First, her Force Powers didn't come out of left field like people keep saying. It hasn't been revealed yet, but it's pretty likely she's the daughter of Luke Skywalker. As a Skywalker, she's incredibly powerful in the Force.

It's also INCREDIBLY likely she had a fair amount of training in Jedi/Force abilities as a child, assuming she's Luke's daughter.

I think when Ben Solo/Kylo Ren turned and slaughtered the Jedi training at Luke's academy, Luke spirited Rey away to a remote desert planet (like Tatooine) and wiped her memory of her Force abilities and identity, as a way of hiding her from Ren and the First Order.

Her Skywalker piloting and tech-head/mechanic skills, her direct link to Luke's old lightsaber (and Anakin's before him), the knowing glances Han and Leia gave her, etc.

I'm of the opinion her abilities/powers sort of subconsciously came back to her as a result of Ren's delving into her mind.

Point is the lightsaber and Force skills she had didn't just come out of nowhere or serve to paint her as a "Mary Sue" (the battlecry of angry men everywhere it seems in relation to this movie). She's a Skywalker. Not to oversimplify, but that kind of says it all.

Anakin was the Chosen One and failed. Luke was a partial path to redemption for the Skywalker line, and Rey will serve as a focal point to balance the Force (just as her father and grandfather did in different ways).

I didn't like that either but JJ Abrams explained it as BB-8 woke him up saying he has a piece of the map and asking of R2 had the rest of it. he expanded on that as saying R2 just took a while to "wake up" - it's a little awkward but that's what it is.



I'm 50/50 on this. On one hand it's too obvious and a Jedi would not form the type of relationship that would be required to have children. On the other hand her storyline mirrors Luke's and Kathleen Kennedy has said that the new movies will continue the Skywalker story, so assuming she means it will mostly focus on that story maybe she is (along with her cousin Ben).

While the Jedi of the Old Republic didn't form relationships, I think Luke may either ignore that or just be ignorant about it. He may also decide to change that rule.

 

[E]

I'm getting tired of the recycled "Mary Sue" comments regarding Rey.

First, her Force Powers didn't come out of left field like people keep saying. It hasn't been revealed yet, but it's pretty likely she's the daughter of Luke Skywalker. As a Skywalker, she's incredibly powerful in the Force.

It's also INCREDIBLY likely she had a fair amount of training in Jedi/Force abilities as a child, assuming she's Luke's daughter.

This. I can't believe anyone would complain about Rey getting her powers so quickly. They stopped just short of spelling it out for us - she has had Jedi training. The name of the movie is "The Force Awakens" for a reason. It wasn't just using the Jedi mind trick or reading minds - once it came back she knew how to handle her lightsaber.

Speaking of, I loved how the lightsaber duels were handled in this film. They got rid of all of the choreographed dancing that was in the prequels and made it look like 2 people fighting with swords, just like you'd expect. There was no elegance to it.

 

[wyokid]

She gets her force powers from her mother and training from her uncle, they're clearly setting up an "I am your mother" scene. It'll be sappy and we'll all cry like babies because it will be Carrie Fisher's multi-award winning, highlight of her career, and the scene we will all remember her by when she dies. It was clear the moment you first saw Rey she had force powers and was still a Mary Sue. She had a lot of skills, had very little flaws besides being untrained, everyone liked her, she beat the bad guy, and held a better fight than Finn did. She was also dragged halfway through the movie until she found the lightsaber which gave her chosen one styled quest. She's a likable character, but she's a Mary Sue.

I didn't really think this film had any good female characters. Phasma was absolutely useless and was literally thrown away, Maz was there for exposition, and Leia was there to give orders and set up Han's death we all knew was coming. Rey was the only who did anything and she had no conflict. I want female characters who have vulnerabilities, things should be difficult for characters, and they should have challenges they have to overcome and skills they have to master.

I thought Finn was pretty pointless. Very little backstory, his character arc of becoming his own individual never had a satisfying conclusion,and he seemed to be a much bigger importance in the trailers. Having said that I totally would have never seen his death coming had he actually died in the forest. That would have actually been a really tragic character arc too, he finds his identity as a force of good and dies defending his friend. Instead he's only taken out like a chump so Rey can come save the day. I know he'll be important later, but he seemed pretty pointless in this. His character was basically getting dragged along wanting to help people. He was reluctant, but kept going any way because he's a good person.

Poe...was completely forgettable. I legitimately don't remember his role in this movie. I know he was their connection to Leia

Han Solo was so clumsily written into the movie. The Falcon just so happened to be on Jakku, and they just so happen to be found by Han and Chewie. I should admit, I've never really cared for Han. I'm growing to like him through the canon, but this didn't help. Kylo Ren being his son had no effect on the plot except we know he's Skywalker. The father son scene lacked so much emotion it wasn't even funny.

Then there's Luke. The whole movie is about Luke. Luke was a great pilot, someone who wanted to do right, someone who embraced his destiny and was a great Jedi, and someone who had to face the dark side within himself. Poe, Finn, Rey, and Kylo. The whole film is centered around who Luke Skywalker is and each character represents a part of that. It's just a shame Luke himself couldn't be more a part of the film.

This felt like JJ Abrams making a Star Wars film. I'm much more excited for Rogue One and episode 8.

 

[ProjectX2]

I'm getting tired of the recycled "Mary Sue" comments regarding Rey.

First, her Force Powers didn't come out of left field like people keep saying. It hasn't been revealed yet, but it's pretty likely she's the daughter of Luke Skywalker. As a Skywalker, she's incredibly powerful in the Force.

It's also INCREDIBLY likely she had a fair amount of training in Jedi/Force abilities as a child, assuming she's Luke's daughter.

I think when Ben Solo/Kylo Ren turned and slaughtered the Jedi training at Luke's academy, Luke spirited Rey away to a remote desert planet (like Tatooine) and wiped her memory of her Force abilities and identity, as a way of hiding her from Ren and the First Order.

Her Skywalker piloting and tech-head/mechanic skills, her direct link to Luke's old lightsaber (and Anakin's before him), the knowing glances Han and Leia gave her, etc.

I'm of the opinion her abilities/powers sort of subconsciously came back to her as a result of Ren's delving into her mind.

Point is the lightsaber and Force skills she had didn't just come out of nowhere or serve to paint her as a "Mary Sue" (the battlecry of angry men everywhere it seems in relation to this movie). She's a Skywalker. Not to oversimplify, but that kind of says it all.

Anakin was the Chosen One and failed. Luke was a partial path to redemption for the Skywalker line, and Rey will serve as a focal point to balance the Force (just as her father and grandfather did in different ways).



While the Jedi of the Old Republic didn't form relationships, I think Luke may either ignore that or just be ignorant about it. He may also decide to change that rule.

I agree with all of this: Rey is basically the Jedi equivalent of Jason Bourne. And I wouldn't be surprised if Max von Sydow was watching over her before his untimely demise (hence his knowledge of Kylo Ren and Leia and possessing part of the map to Luke's whereabouts).

Based on the novelization, I am now more than ever convinced that Snoke is actually Darth Plagueis and that he is the one responsible for the creation of Anakin Skywalker.

 

[SSJmole]

I'm getting tired of the recycled "Mary Sue" comments regarding Rey.

First, her Force Powers didn't come out of left field like people keep saying. It hasn't been revealed yet, but it's pretty likely she's the daughter of Luke Skywalker. As a Skywalker, she's incredibly powerful in the Force.

It's also INCREDIBLY likely she had a fair amount of training in Jedi/Force abilities as a child, assuming she's Luke's daughter.

I think when Ben Solo/Kylo Ren turned and slaughtered the Jedi training at Luke's academy, Luke spirited Rey away to a remote desert planet (like Tatooine) and wiped her memory of her Force abilities and identity, as a way of hiding her from Ren and the First Order.

Her Skywalker piloting and tech-head/mechanic skills, her direct link to Luke's old lightsaber (and Anakin's before him), the knowing glances Han and Leia gave her, etc.

I'm of the opinion her abilities/powers sort of subconsciously came back to her as a result of Ren's delving into her mind.

Point is the lightsaber and Force skills she had didn't just come out of nowhere or serve to paint her as a "Mary Sue" (the battlecry of angry men everywhere it seems in relation to this movie). She's a Skywalker. Not to oversimplify, but that kind of says it all.

Anakin was the Chosen One and failed. Luke was a partial path to redemption for the Skywalker line, and Rey will serve as a focal point to balance the Force (just as her father and grandfather did in different ways)..

It has nothing to do with "the battlecry of angry men" As that is a really easy and convenient argument "Don't like her you are sexist!" even though some of the same people like myself complained they've erased mara jade BUT as there's more females erased from the EU i guess everyone in support of loosing mara jade or Jaina Solo are just "angry men"


No. it's storytelling 101 , the excuse of "They'll explain it in a sequel" does not cut it. Regardless of gender having a character out pilot Han solo , Tell him things about the Falcon he didnt know , out shoot a wave of military trained guys , then out dual someone who had training all the while having NO flaws is terrible

There is a reason people say superman is too perfect or complain at some batman plans. It because gender does not = character. The fact your argument comes down to "if you dont like her your sexist" and "It's ok they'll explain it" means I suspect you kind of already know it's true. I mean "It's also INCREDIBLY likely she had a fair amount of training in Jedi/Force abilities as a child, assuming she's Luke's daughter." But spent the movie saying jedi + luke are just myths, meaning theres no proof she had training.

as for "She's a skywalker" Oh you mean like anakin who first fight with someone trained (dooku) he lost? Or luke who in movie VI never fought any one and movie V could barly use the force till trained? She is a bad character the same way Superman usually is.

 

[wyokid]

There is a reason people say superman is too perfect or complain at some batman plans.

Because they've never read a comic.

 

[SSJmole]

Because they've never read a comic.

Or because before new 52 superman was too perfect. He had no flaws and that makes a lousy character.

 

[wyokid]

Or because before new 52 superman was too perfect. He had no flaws and that makes a lousy character.

As I said, they've never read a comic. Please point to me to the run this happened in because Superman as a character is about conflict. The whole existence of Clark Kent in of itself shows conflict within the character. Superman is a mask that Clark Kent puts on, not the other way around. He feels more comfortable living as a human than he does being Superman and having to balance that is only one of many of Superman's conflict. This is a Star Wars thread though.

 

[DIrishB]

It has nothing to do with "the battlecry of angry men" As that is a really easy and convenient argument "Don't like her you are sexist!" even though some of the same people like myself complained they've erased mara jade BUT as there's more females erased from the EU i guess everyone in support of loosing mara jade or Jaina Solo are just "angry men"

No, just unrealistic. If you didn't see the EU reboot coming when Disney bought Lucasfilm, I don't know what to tell you. We've had the conversation about the reboot a few times already: they were never going to adapt or align the sequel trilogy with the bloated, over complicated continuity set forth by novels and comics that were never considered canon by Lucas anyway.

It is what it is.

No. it's storytelling 101 , the excuse of "They'll explain it in a sequel" does not cut it. Regardless of gender having a character out pilot Han solo , Tell him things about the Falcon he didnt know , out shoot a wave of military trained guys , then out dual someone who had training all the while having NO flaws is terrible

Here's the thing: no one would would be complaining if Ben Solo had been the one out piloting Han Solo, or being a better tech head or lightsaber dueler, etc.

I think it's inherently untrue to say Rey was a character without flaws. I also think it's inherently ridiculous to complain that some stuff hasn't been accomplished yet in the first part of a film trilogy. Their character arcs are meant to cover the trilogy. Her arc in this film was partially discovering her origins, though admittedly not getting the full explanation. Just like Luke ANH & ESB, and Anakin in the Prequels.

Luke was a pilot great enough to blow up the frigging Death Star a few days after leaving his planet.

Anakin was the first human to win a pod race (in a self built pod racer) and blew up a Trade Federation command ship as a 10 year old kid.

Yet no mentions of Luke or Anakin being overpowered by those same Rey detractors, so yeah, there does seem to be some odd double standard at play.

Kind of a valid point, no?

There is a reason people say superman is too perfect or complain at some batman plans. It because gender does not = character. The fact your argument comes down to "if you dont like her your sexist" and "It's ok they'll explain it" means I suspect you kind of already know it's true. I mean "It's also INCREDIBLY likely she had a fair amount of training in Jedi/Force abilities as a child, assuming she's Luke's daughter." But spent the movie saying jedi + luke are just myths, meaning theres no proof she had training.

No, there isn't, except her flashbacks strongly indicating her witnessing Ben Solo/Kylo Ren's turn and slaughter of the other trainees at Luke's school, and the Force abilities she exhibited.

I mean, come ON! Those are the biggest indicators right there! Her parallel childhoods to Anakin and Luke growing up on desolate desert worlds, etc. I mean, we don't know for sure, that's true, but the formula indicates the revelation about Luke being her father will come in the next film, just as Empire did the revelation of Luke/Vader's father & son relationship.

We'll also get the chance to see Luke explain the turn of Ben Solo and why he left Rey on Jakku, why and how he wiped her memory to protect her, etc. It could even be revealed that Luke wiped Ben's memory of Rey to prevent him from hunting her directly.

as for "She's a skywalker" Oh you mean like anakin who first fight with someone trained (dooku) he lost?

Yes, Dooku the Sith Lord and master lightsaber dueler. I doubt Kylo Ren is anything close to Dooku at full health (least not yet), let alone with a bowcaster blast through his side. It's amazing how in the rush to label Rey as overpowered/Mary Sue, many ignore that, and the obvious indicators of her lineage. I mean... why do that? There's an inherent dislogic to the entire argument that Rey is overpowered unless you think the same of Anakin and Luke, isn't there?

Remember this movie's arc for Kylo Ren was severing his last ties to the Light Side and his family. He'll have fully embraced the Dark Side by the next film, and will be far more powerful and terrifying as a result.

I mean, come on, it's the first film in a trilogy, people!

Or luke who in movie VI never fought any one and movie V could barly use the force till trained?

Did you watch a different version of RotJ than I did? I remember Luke fighting lots of people on Jabba's skiff, on Endor (speeder bike scene), and finally Vader. And again, you're overlooking that Rey, in comparison, has likely HAD more training than Luke did at that point, due to training under Luke as a child. Luke had no such benefit and largely had to wing it/make it up as he went outside of the little he learned from Obi-Wan and Yoda.

Yes, the same Luke whose inherently strong Force powers allowed him to make a 1 in a million shot to blow up the first Death Star, who had hardly any training at all (Obi-Wan taught him a day's worth of training before dying at Vader's hands, and Yoda taught him merely Force manipulation and balance focus, I don't remember him flipping around and teaching Luke lightsaber dueling skills like in the Prequels).

The majority of Luke's training likely had to come through Holocrons discovered post-RotJ, and maybe a direct line to the Force ghost hotline of Yoda, Obi-Wan, and Anakin... that hasn't been revealed yet. But the OT showed Luke had VERY little training, arguably far less than Rey likely would have had as a Padawan/trainee at Luke's school before Kylo's betrayal. And let's be honest, that's 99% likely to be the case.

She is a bad character the same way Superman usually is.

By that metric Anakin and Luke both are also bad characters using only TPM and ANH as comparison.

It should be obvious Rey will be presented with vulnerabilities in the next film similar to the way Anakin was in AotC (whiny and impulsive)--Rey has already been shown to be impulsive, though I doubt she'll be whiny--and Luke in Empire, from getting attacked by the Wampa, caught in a snowstorm and being rescued by Han, confronting his fears and vulnerabilities and knowing he wasn't ready, and yet facing Vader anyway and getting his hand cut off as a result.

Rey will likely have a similar arc of facing her hubris and limitations of her power in Episode VIII. If that doesn't happen then the Mary Sue complaints may be valid. Right now they're not, and are shortsighted knee jerk reactions that ignore some obvious clues or otherwise blatant evidence.

Such as: Ren had been shot with a damn crossbow bolt by an enraged Chewbacca to start, so I can believe Finn (uninjured but still outclassed) holding his own for the 30 seconds or so that lasted. I can also believe Rey beating Ren due to his injuries and her inherent power and training coming back to her.

I can also believe Rey's inherent piloting skills are greater than Han Solo's (given her likely Skywalker lineage and her father and grandfather also being amazing pilots), as is her knowledge of tech/ship mechanics. She was a scavenger her entire life to that point, and as such may have an inherent better understanding of not only ship mechanics in general, but making do with less in tight spots (as she displayed).

It just seems people are rushing to apply the Mary Sue label despite the obvious hints of her genealogy and prior training, and personally, I find it silly.

I mean, it's the classic hero's journey arc:

Hero discovers talents/destiny beyond their previous scope, embark on journey to defeat antagonist/accomplish quest.

Hero then discovers limitations of that power, must embark on further quest to train/hone/overcome their shortcomings, often unsuccessfully to a degree in second chapter.

Hero then overcomes, often at great personal sacrifice in third chapter.

We've only gotten the first chapter so far, so... aren't these complaints premature, considering that?

Unless there are different rules for chicks?

 

[DIrishB]

I agree with all of this: Rey is basically the Jedi equivalent of Jason Bourne. And I wouldn't be surprised if Max von Sydow was watching over her before his untimely demise (hence his knowledge of Kylo Ren and Leia and possessing part of the map to Luke's whereabouts).

Von Sydow's character is supposedly someone introduced in the canon already. Some are theorizing he may be Ezra Bridger or Kanan Jarrus from the Rebels show, but I doubt it.

Based on the novelization, I am now more than ever convinced that Snoke is actually Darth Plagueis and that he is the one responsible for the creation of Anakin Skywalker.

I seriously hope thats the route they take. It'd be infinitely more interesting and offer much more of a full circle effect than some random new Dark Side user.

 

[SSJmole]

Here's the thing: no one would would be complaining if Ben Solo had been the one out piloting Han Solo, or being a better tech head or lightsaber dueler, etc.

I would if he did ALL of them, Then again I didn't like his character anyway,

I think it's inherently untrue to say Rey was a character without flaws. I also think it's inherently ridiculous to complain that some stuff hasn't been accomplished yet in the first part of a film trilogy. Their character arcs are meant to cover the trilogy. Her arc in this film was partially discovering her origins, though admittedly not getting the full explanation. Just like Luke ANH & ESB, and Anakin in the Prequels.

Luke was a pilot great enough to blow up the frigging Death Star a few days after leaving his planet.

Anakin was the first human to win a pod race (in a self built pod racer) and blew up a Trade Federation command ship as a 10 year old kid.

Yet no mentions of Luke or Anakin being overpowered by those same Rey detractors, so yeah, there does seem to be some odd double standard at play.

Kind of a valid point, no?

Not really. Luke blew up death star in first movie so he had pilot part , Anakin first film had podracing + building c3p0 and People still complained about him so having shooting , piloting , lightsabering , forcing + correcting Han = I would complain. I complained at Anakin in episode 1 when he was a bad character too. so yes there is a "some odd double standard at play." Episode I male lead = everyone complain , Fault episode VII with female and it's wrong!

No, there isn't, except her flashbacks strongly indicating her witnessing Ben Solo/Kylo Ren's turn and slaughter of the other trainees at Luke's school, and the Force abilities she exhibited.

I mean, come ON! Those are the biggest indicators right there! Her parallel childhoods to Anakin and Luke growing up on desolate desert worlds, etc. I mean, we don't know for sure, that's true, but the formula indicates the revelation about Luke being her father will come in the next film, just as Empire did the revelation of Luke/Vader's father & son relationship.

We'll also get the chance to see Luke explain the turn of Ben Solo and why he left Rey on Jakku, why and how he wiped her memory to protect her, etc. It could even be revealed that Luke wiped Ben's memory of Rey to prevent him from hunting her directly.

The flashbacks though never said it was her remembering and seemed to be more "visions" so I would not count them, The Force abilities as I said felt out of no where

Yes, Dooku the Sith Lord and master lightsaber dueler. I doubt Kylo Ren is anything close to Dooku at full health (least not yet), let alone with a bowcaster blast through his side. It's amazing how in the rush to label Rey as overpowered/Mary Sue, many ignore that, and the obvious indicators of her lineage. I mean... why do that? There's an inherent dislogic to the entire argument that Rey is overpowered unless you think the same of Anakin and Luke, isn't there?

Really? so in a new hope + Phantom Menace , They both had piloting , shooting guns at military , correcting han solo (who wouldn't even let luke touch much fyi) out lightsabered a force user and more? no they didnt they had 2.

Did you watch a different version of RotJ than I did?

I meant IV , if in IX shes grown I have 0 complaint but she has grown too fast ant too convenient

Yes, the same Luke whose inherently strong Force powers allowed him to make a 1 in a million shot to blow up the first Death Star, who had hardly any training at all (Obi-Wan taught him a day's worth of training before dying at Vader's hands, and Yoda taught him merely Force manipulation and balance focus, I don't remember him flipping around and teaching Luke lightsaber dueling skills like in the Prequels).

That's 1 thing and it was mentioned he shot for a living. That's okay. If she had only resisted the mind torture cool , only used saber , cool. or only any of her other feats then cool . But ALL is silly.

It just seems people are rushing to apply the Mary Sue label despite the obvious hints of her genealogy and prior training, and personally, I find it silly.

I mean, it's the classic hero's journey arc:

Hero discovers talents/destiny beyond their previous scope, embark on journey to defeat antagonist/accomplish quest.

Hero then discovers limitations of that power, must embark on further quest to train/hone/overcome their shortcomings, often unsuccessfully to a degree in second chapter.

Hero then overcomes, often at great personal sacrifice in third chapter.

We've only gotten the first chapter so far, so... aren't these complaints premature, considering that?

Unless there are different rules for chicks?

Apparently there is "different rules for chicks" As the prequels people hated it anytime Anakin had something similar to luke and hated in phantom menace BUT if we fault Rey her sex means that's the only reason and she must be protected, THAT is sexist. The idea that faulting a woman is due to her sex. Like you cant look past it.

I complained when Anakain built c3p0 , I complained when he said yippee , I complained when he blew up what i call "my first death star" in episode I. And i complain at Rey but hey that's me I see characters and story not sex. Hence I insulted Kylo too and I insulted "Harrison Bored" in VI. I mocked Dooku and complained at the clones in II. Sorry I believe characters should be critiqued equally.

 

[DIrishB]

I would if he did ALL of them, Then again I didn't like his character anyway,



Not really. Luke blew up death star in first movie so he had pilot part , Anakin first film had podracing + building c3p0 and People still complained about him so having shooting , piloting , lightsabering , forcing + correcting Han = I would complain. I complained at Anakin in episode 1 when he was a bad character too. so yes there is a "some odd double standard at play." Episode I male lead = everyone complain , Fault episode VII with female and it's wrong!

Mole, no need to be defensive. I'm speaking in generalities here about some BLATANT sexism that does indeed exist regarding some peoples' opinions of the Rey character.

We can both agree there was no huge outcry that Anakin or Luke were overpowered in their trilogies, so why is it such a common complaint about Rey?

That's the issue I'm discussing, not whether you personally liked what Anakin did or didn't do. The issue I'm talking about is the complaint Rey is an overpowered Mary Sue, when that complaint was never really levied with any commonality at Anakin or Luke.

This is the double standard I'm speaking of.

Consider: Anakin is one of the greatest pilots of all time, yet got juked out like a punk by a stray TIE courtesy of Han/Chewie.

Are Han and Chewie overpowered as a result?

The flashbacks though never said it was her remembering and seemed to be more "visions" so I would not count them, The Force abilities as I said felt out of no where

They were very clearly memories, hence her remembering when she first arrived on the planet Jakku as a kid. The other glimpses were all presented the same way, thus it's logical to perceive them as memories.

Really? so in a new hope + Phantom Menace , They both had piloting , shooting guns at military , correcting han solo (who wouldn't even let luke touch much fyi) out lightsabered a force user and more? no they didnt they had 2.

Dude, you're now entering into semantics. But yes, in both TPM and ANH they both piloted ships in amazing feats of military victory, shot at Separatist droids/Stormtroopers, etc.

You're placing these kind of ridiculous limits on her: "ok, it's cool if she does one, maybe two, but three cool things?!? No way. Mary Sue!"

Again, it's obvious Luke trained her. The whole Mary Sue/overpowered argument largely falls apart when you admit that, so I doubt those of that opinion will accept that theory until it's forced down their throats by Episode VIII's release.

I meant IV , if in IX shes grown I have 0 complaint but she has grown too fast ant too convenient

Again, you're ignoring the obvious evidence in favor of what will likely amount to a false narrative to support the "overpowered" argument.

Once you realize she was trained by her father, Luke Skywalker, likely for years, all these overpowered complaints really do pretty much evaporate in regards to the lack of such complaints aimed at Anakin and Luke.

And obviously her character will continue to develop in the next couple films. The large majority of her character development will occur in those films, as she learns of her place in the universe/destiny, limits of her powers and abilities, and just how powerful Ren has become now that he's severed all links to the Light Side.

That's 1 thing and it was mentioned he shot for a living. That's okay. If she had only resisted the mind torture cool , only used saber , cool. or only any of her other feats then cool . But ALL is silly.

Not when you admit she's had Jedi training from Luke. Deep down you know it's true.

Give in to the Dark Side!

Apparently there is "different rules for chicks" As the prequels people hated it anytime Anakin had something similar to luke and hated in phantom menace BUT if we fault Rey her sex means that's the only reason and she must be protected, THAT is sexist. The idea that faulting a woman is due to her sex. Like you cant look past it.

As I said, there was no outcry from a small portion of the fanbase that Luke or Anakin were overpowered.

Rey has the advantage over either in terms of likely (obviously) having had that training. She may also in terms of strength in the Force, we'll see.

But I'm honestly tired of the circular debate and repeating myself.

I complained when Anakain built c3p0 , I complained when he said yippee , I complained when he blew up what i call "my first death star" in episode I. And i complain at Rey but hey that's me I see characters and story not sex. Hence I insulted Kylo too and I insulted "Harrison Bored" in VI. I mocked Dooku and complained at the clones in II. Sorry I believe characters should be critiqued equally.

It honestly seems like you're missing the point I'm trying to make. Having gripes are fine. I have plenty. Not liking it is fine.

That isn't what I'm talking about.

I'm talking about the vocal minority who keep pushing the Mary Sue/overpowered argument. I've pointed out now, repeatedly, why ALL indicators point to her being Luke's daughter and being trained (to some degree) in the Force, and thus the Mary Sue argument is likely without merit (but only proven so once Episode VIII comes out).

But again, you're entitled to your opinion. Have at it.

I enjoyed the heck out of the film, personally, and can guess what they're doing with the characters of Rey and Ren.

 

[SSJmole]

Doesn't matter if she's luke's daughter or not it's not revealed in this movie. It's like I can watch spider-man 1 and not think "sandman killed uncle ben" as a movie they need to explain it. As the "we'll explain stuff later" means in this movie she's overpowered out of no where.

The limit is what I put on any character. You cant do it all it's dumb to do that. As for your

"We can both agree there was no huge outcry that Anakin or Luke were overpowered in their trilogies, so why is it such a common complaint about Rey?"

YES THERE was. Not for Luke but can not say no one said "Oh he's whinny" if Anakin expressed emotion, People were outraged they made Anakin the chosen one. People complained about anything prequel era Anakin did. People complained he was OP during movies + clone wars. Personally I liked him and thought he was flawed enough his OP made him far from perfect.

This film with Rey she is OP. Could they explain it later? yes but a first film of a trilogy shouldn't need an explanation that huge to justify a character. As it stands I'd use the Mary sue for her as in this movie there's 0 point to anyone other than her. Finn was a tropper but so? she can out gun him. It just seems silly. She felt too powerful to quick. Like Luke did not feel too powerful in IV or Anakin in I , they did in VI and III. She just felt too good too powerful and had no flaws to me. Can she get better? yes like i said I love prequel Anakin BUT i admit i hate episode I anakin. Maybe I'll like VIII and IX Rey but I dont like VII Rey and I feel people feel shes OP they can say it, and I feel this movie didn't do a good job of finding balance between be chosen by destiny + desert Girl.

 

[vintsukka]

Am I crazy or does this fan theory almost make sense?

http://distractify.com/entertainment/2015/12/22/mariam-kylo-ren-is-sexy-af

EDIT: I have no idea why the url says Kylo Ren is sexy. The article isn't about that.

 

[DIrishB]

Doesn't matter if she's luke's daughter or not it's not revealed in this movie. It's like I can watch spider-man 1 and not think "sandman killed uncle ben" as a movie they need to explain it. As the "we'll explain stuff later" means in this movie she's overpowered out of no where.

The limit is what I put on any character. You cant do it all it's dumb to do that. As for your

"We can both agree there was no huge outcry that Anakin or Luke were overpowered in their trilogies, so why is it such a common complaint about Rey?"

YES THERE was. Not for Luke but can not say no one said "Oh he's whinny" if Anakin expressed emotion, People were outraged they made Anakin the chosen one. People complained about anything prequel era Anakin did. People complained he was OP during movies + clone wars. Personally I liked him and thought he was flawed enough his OP made him far from perfect.

This film with Rey she is OP. Could they explain it later? yes but a first film of a trilogy shouldn't need an explanation that huge to justify a character. As it stands I'd use the Mary sue for her as in this movie there's 0 point to anyone other than her. Finn was a tropper but so? she can out gun him. It just seems silly. She felt too powerful to quick. Like Luke did not feel too powerful in IV or Anakin in I , they did in VI and III. She just felt too good too powerful and had no flaws to me. Can she get better? yes like i said I love prequel Anakin BUT i admit i hate episode I anakin. Maybe I'll like VIII and IX Rey but I dont like VII Rey and I feel people feel shes OP they can say it, and I feel this movie didn't do a good job of finding balance between be chosen by destiny + desert Girl.

Dude... this will be the last time I say this as I've repeated it several times.

This trilogy will likely follow the original trilogy in many aspects, as has already been shown in TFA.

This film DID heavily imply her past and training in the Force. The next film will merely confirm it and expound on the details some. It'll also reveal the familial link between Luke and Rey just as Empire (the second film in that trilogy) revealed the Vader and Luke connection. You're faulting this film for not giving all the answers flat out, when it shouldn't... and it already heavily implied the stuff I've been repeatedly saying anyway.

When she has to go up against Kylo Ren at full strength, she'll be faced with a similar challenge and defeat that Luke experienced in Empire. Just let them get there.

She's not overpowered, shes a Skywalker with a very likely fair amount of Jedi training in various techniques, just as Kylo is, though also trained in Dark Side/Sith approach... remember, he was seriously wounded by a bowcaster bolt, so stop devaluing and realize Rey probably would have been killed if Ren hadn't been SHOT with a BOWCASTER, because Kylo likely DID have more training/experience overall and was versed in both Light and Dark Side approaches. One on one she wouldn't have been ready to face Ren, and probably won't be able to successfully until Episode IX. So really, relax, the evidence has been heavily implied if not laid out directly under our noses.

I think they did a superb job of dropping hints about her past without giving it away or ruining surprise in next film, as they should. They SHOULD have kept a few lingering questions as they did. As a result most can't wait to see the next one to see those questions answered, so it did its job.