Star Wars Episode VII - The Force Awakens Discussion [SPOILERS]

[SSJmole]

That's fine that you think that. As I keep saying to me they didnt confirm or hint at anything and the "wait and see" is lazy. Also people cant argue "This trilogy will likely follow the original trilogy in many aspects" then complain when she is compared to Luke who in the first film did nothing impressive and even blowing up the death star he would have died if Han had not come back.

It's lazy writing to me and to me she felt OP. Sorry if she didnt to you but as I keep pointing everyone complained over and over about prequel Anakin been OP and hating everything he did, Rey can be critiqued the exact same way. The "wait and see" lazyness is why i dont want marvel's agents of shield as all they do is say "the series will have something important ..... later" and dont work on the now.


Copying of episode IV , complaining about the OPness of the main hero, not liking the villians ect... ALL happened during prequels too. Only difference was it was somehow cool to hate the prequels and cool to say this is flawless

 

[DIrishB]

That's fine that you think that. As I keep saying to me they didnt confirm or hint at anything and the "wait and see" is lazy.

I don't think intentionally holding off on that revelation (despite the overwhelming hints to it) is "lazy". I think it's calculated and makes perfect sense. They already gave us the answer, you just refuse to accept that since it really makes your argument fall apart, and I get that.

But when Episode VIII releases I'm totally pulling a "I told you so".

Also people cant argue "This trilogy will likely follow the original trilogy in many aspects" then complain when she is compared to Luke who in the first film did nothing impressive and even blowing up the death star he would have died if Han had not come back.

Right. And Rey would likely have died had Chewie not shot Ren with a Bowcaster, and had Finn not distracted/occupied Ren while she was knocked out.

Same thing, done in different ways, if you really think about it.

It's lazy writing to me and to me she felt OP.

Lazy writing would've been to explain all of that through expository dialogue, before its time and forced into this film.

It ultimately would've felt out of place and ruined any potential suspense/mystery/questions like this film set up.

By your metric, any film that leaves lingering questions for a sequel is lazy? So The Godfather, A New Hope, etc are films utilizing "lazy writing"?

Sorry if she didnt to you but as I keep pointing everyone complained over and over about prequel Anakin been OP and hating everything he did, Rey can be critiqued the exact same way.

Not once did I ever hear that complaint. Considering he was Anakin Skywalker, father of Luke Skywalker, the "chosen one", etc. I haven't heard the mass outcry of "Anakin is overpowered" or "Luke is overpowered" from the fans like I did with Rey.

The "wait and see" lazyness is why i dont want marvel's agents of shield as all they do is say "the series will have something important ..... later" and dont work on the now.

So do the Marvel movies. I mean, they've been teasing Thanos for years. Is that lazy? No. It's dropping hints and building momentum. Just as TFA did with Rey's past.

Copying of episode IV , complaining about the OPness of the main hero, not liking the villians ect... ALL happened during prequels too. Only difference was it was somehow cool to hate the prequels and cool to say this is flawless

The only complaints I hear about prequels regularly is that they're disappointing films with horrible dialogue and stilted performances. And that's true.

That criticism doesn't really apply to TFA (though maybe you'll argue otherwise).

As someone who spends a fair amount of time on Star Wars forums researching info to update the Star Wars timeline I do, trust me, I'm not speaking without knowing what I'm talking about. No one says Anakin was overpowered. It's just generally accepted he was the failed chosen one, Luke was a path for redemption, which didn't go all that well. Rey is another chance at that redemption and balance.

You're entitled to your opinion, but we both know how Episode VIII will reveal exactly what I'm saying.

So I ask you, if we find out Rey is indeed trained in the Force by Luke when she was a kid in next movie (mind control, lightsaber dueling, Force Push, all the other more well known Jedi powers), is she still overpowered or a Skywalker trained in the ways of the Force?

And if she is trained in the Force, is she overpowered or powered correctly based on her lineage and training?

 

[Captain Canuck]

So I've skimmed this argument, and here's my take.

It's fine, or even great that Rey is a strong and amazing character. I think so for two reasons:
1) There is clearly more going on with her than they have revealed. Probably previous training that is awakening in her, as DIB is saying. Whether or not she is anyone's daughter, she is clearly a powerful jedi that was sent into hiding after Kylo Ren turned and started hunting Jedi.
2) Star Wars PURPOSEFULLY gave us a really really strong female character. They made fun of the trope that they have used in the past, of the females needing rescued. She's capable, smart, and way more skilled than she should be (see point one). That's good. It's on purpose. It's not lazy. She's not a Mary Sue, she's a Jason Bourne.

On the other hand, here is the problem with the way Rey was portrayed: She didn't have a character arc in THIS MOVIE. She, like the rest of the characters were just teased and introduced. They needed to spend a bit more time explicitly asking the question, "who is Rey?" and then actually given us some sort of answer at the end. Even if Rey had wondered out loud, "how am I doing this?!" And then when she got to Luke, he had said something like "I've been waiting for you Rey, it's time to continue your training." That would have helped a lot.

Overall, Episode VII doesn't stand on it's own as a coherent story. At all. Without the original trilogy, you don't care about the old characters. They didn't do justice in introducing them. Without sequels to this movie, there is no arc for any of the new characters besides Kylo Ren (which was well done). Nothing was explained. The plot was very thin, and recycled. The movie was carried by spectacle, fast-paced action, humour, and fun characters that we're left wanting to get to know more, but don't really know at all. Which, I guess is fine, but it was ultimately dissatisfying for me.

Along those lines (this has nothing to do with Rey), I wish they had given us a bit more context of what was going on. It's fine to drop us into this world with no idea of what's happening if this is the first time, but I went to see this movie because I'm invested in the larger narrative. So just show me a bit more of the New Republic and explain that these Imperial empathizers have risen up in the past 30 years and are challenging the New Republic for power. Explain the relationship there, just a bit. Why is there a resistance against the First Order, but not a war between the NR and the FO?

At the end of the day, Abrams is a tv director. And this movie was the pilot for his new series. When the whole trilogy is finished, I'm sure it will be awesome.

EDIT: but do you guys seriously like episode 2 more than episode 1? Episode 1 isn't good, but Episode 2 is just PAINFUL!

 

[DIrishB]

So I've skimmed this argument, and here's my take.

It's fine, or even great that Rey is a strong and amazing character. I think so for two reasons:
1) There is clearly more going on with her than they have revealed. Probably previous training that is awakening in her, as DIB is saying. Whether or not she is anyone's daughter, she is clearly a powerful jedi that was sent into hiding after Kylo Ren turned and started hunting Jedi.
2) Star Wars PURPOSEFULLY gave us a really really strong female character. They made fun of the trope that they have used in the past, of the females needing rescued. She's capable, smart, and way more skilled than she should be (see point one). That's good. It's on purpose. It's not lazy. She's not a Mary Sue, she's a Jason Bourne.

On the other hand, here is the problem with the way Rey was portrayed: She didn't have a character arc in THIS MOVIE. She, like the rest of the characters were just teased and introduced. They needed to spend a bit more time explicitly asking the question, "who is Rey?" and then actually given us some sort of answer at the end. Even if Rey had wondered out loud, "how am I doing this?!" And then when she got to Luke, he had said something like "I've been waiting for you Rey, it's time to continue your training." That would have helped a lot.

Overall, Episode VII doesn't stand on it's own as a coherent story. At all. Without the original trilogy, you don't care about the old characters. They didn't do justice in introducing them. Without sequels to this movie, there is no arc for any of the new characters besides Kylo Ren (which was well done). Nothing was explained. The plot was very thin, and recycled. The movie was carried by spectacle, fast-paced action, humour, and fun characters that we're left wanting to get to know more, but don't really know at all. Which, I guess is fine, but it was ultimately dissatisfying for me.

Along those lines (this has nothing to do with Rey), I wish they had given us a bit more context of what was going on. It's fine to drop us into this world with no idea of what's happening if this is the first time, but I went to see this movie because I'm invested in the larger narrative. So just show me a bit more of the New Republic and explain that these Imperial empathizers have risen up in the past 30 years and are challenging the New Republic for power. Explain the relationship there, just a bit. Why is there a resistance against the First Order, but not a war between the NR and the FO?

At the end of the day, Abrams is a tv director. And this movie was the pilot for his new series. When the whole trilogy is finished, I'm sure it will be awesome.

EDIT: but do you guys seriously like episode 2 more than episode 1? Episode 1 isn't good, but Episode 2 is just PAINFUL!

I can agree with that mostly. But I disagree Rey didn't experience any character development or an arc in the film. It wasn't detailed or original of expansive, but as a cyclical saga in many ways that's to be expected in the into chapters (which TFA was). She discovered her abilities and got swept up in larger events just as Anakin and Luke did. Inherently, how was Luke's or Anakin's arcs in ANH or TPM superior or better?

While I agree this film capitalized on the original trilogy stars, I think that was largely necessary, at probably resulted in a better film in terms of its bridge aspects between the OT and sequel trilogy. The Prequel Trilogy did the same, and as a continuous saga about a specific family and their friends and enemies, well, it's to be expected.

No doubt the next film will heavily feature Luke in a sort of Obi-Wan/Yoda role (Rey has sought Luke out on a distant world much like Luke sought out Yoda), and I have no doubt her training will continue, reluctantly for Luke, but realizing it's necessary for balance in the Force. He knows she'll need more training to go up against Kylo Ren at full strength.

It's the first film in the trilogy. We didn't have anywhere close to all the answers after ANH so like I said, I think once people get answers about her past in Episode VIII the Mary Sue/overpowered accusations will hopefully largely end. The main crux of that argument is that her powers "came out of nowhere" despite the heavy evidence showing otherwise, that she witnessed Ben Solo's/Kylo Ren's betrayal and slaughter of the trainees at Luke's academy, and that she herself is a Skywalker.

I don't think she's Han and Leia's daughter as they reacted like family, but not necessarily parents. There was no longing or heavy emotion from either Han or Leia in their scenes with Rey, and they had to know who she was, which indicates they're not her parents. I can definitely see them as her aunt and uncle, though. Protective, approving, familial, but not parental. It's a noticeable difference.

Yet Luke's look at the end, that spoke volume. I got chills not only from seeing him again, but the look he gave, it seemed to me to show a lot of indicators of a huge connection between them. Given her visions from touching the lightsaber, and the way Han and Leia seem unlikely to be her parents, Luke is the most logical conclusion when weighing all the evidence presented in TFA.

I think the main saga films (Episodes I-IX) have and will follow variations of the same formula. The Anthology/spin-off films will allow them to get a bit more experimental and expand on specific character back stories, and take the films into more unique niches within the SW universe. I for one look forward to films centered on smugglers, bounty hunters, spies, etc besides the usual Jedi-focus of the main films. That said I'm sure there will also be Jedi-focused anthology films at some point as well.

 

[SSJmole]

EDIT: but do you guys seriously like episode 2 more than episode 1? Episode 1 isn't good, but Episode 2 is just PAINFUL!

What can I say I have a fett-ish for bounty hunters!


No joking episode 1 had to much Jar-Jar , Kid Anakin and felt just bad to me. Episode 2 Anakin was more fun like Padme/Anakin was great, Obi/Anakin scenes like "you'll be the death of me" were great, Jango fett was awesome , Obi vs Jango is still one of my favourite fights, and overall the film just felt great. My only complaints with II is I don't like Dooku and yoda jumping around then walking away on stick is silly lol

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Edit: also this guy explains my Rey thing better than me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpS6TlqgLIQ&html5=1 note he has other videos about it too. Also note I didnt search this out I followed him since his "wrestling isn't wrestling" (check that out its awesome)

 

[DIrishB]

Edit: also this guy explains my Rey thing better than me https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cpS6TlqgLIQ&html5=1 note he has other videos about it too. Also note I didnt search this out I followed him since his "wrestling isn't wrestling" (check that out its awesome)

There's so much I can pick apart about that response.

Again, it's ignoring the blatantly obvious clues in the film itself to make a point. It's not a false narrative yet, but it will be proven as such when Episode VIII is released.

Second, while he's correct it's not a TV series, Star Wars is arguably one of the most episodic (see what I did there) film series out there, with a continuing soap operatic tone in space. So, the point he's trying to make about everything needing to be done or established in the first film is bunk.

Now, he mentions "stakes" and how Rey was never in danger. He makes a somewhat fair point but again, ignores the blatantly obvious clues given in TFA that refute it as to WHY she's so capable.

First, Rey grew up from age 5-7 or so alone on a desert world, scavenging for parts to trade for food. Luke also grew up on a desert planet but was raised by his Aunt and Uncle, on a remote moisture farm. Even Anakin, who grew up a slave, likely had an easier childhood than Rey. So, her physicality makes perfect sense. One would need to learn to handle themselves physically in order to survive.

Again, Rey is likely comparable to a mid level Jedi Padawan in terms of training (think maybe Ahsoka in early Clone Wars). She's a Skywalker so the skills are inherently strong.

He also mistakes strength with capability. Kylo Ren is obviously stronger in the Force in some ways, but his internal conflict and clinging to the Light didn't allow him to achieve his full potential.

I don't know, the entire thing was laced with a large degree of BS. He mentions how Finn almost defeated Ren in the lightsaber battle. That's complete crap. Complete. Finn was holding on for dear life.

Also, conveniently no mention of how Ren had been SHOT WITH A BOWCASTER.

It's this selective approach to the Mary Sue assertion that pisses me off.

When you have to rely on selective picking and choosing of certain aspects while unfairly and intentionally ignoring others that refute your point/assertion, that doesn't speak to me of conviction.

But Landis has always been a hyperbolic sensationalist.

 

[ProjectX2]

Max Landis is the worst.

 

[SSJmole]

It's not ignoring or "selective approach" As I got they may have reasons for everything later and I got that they may have excuses for every complaint. However I don't like characters like that. I want see growth and feel a danger no matter who. Like dragonball would have been **** if goku started as Super Saiyan god or a new Hope would have been crap if Luke was ROTJ Luke

I get there is no changing of your mind and thats cool. But there is nothing you can say to me to convince me what I saw what was a great three dimensional character that was not just a "Mary sue" There is also no reason to throw around terms like "sexist" as was done, when we faulted male characters equally too. andd quiet frankly it pisses me off that too if you insult a character you think is bad they had better damn sure be the same sex , race and sexuality as you or the SJW have a field day telling us to "check our privilege" or something. I mean Kylo Ren also sucked as I stated but i noticed no one complained about that oh yeah i forgot he's male so I can.

I think she was a bad character, I mentioned the film was not the worst SW movie however and at the end of the day if i spent £15 to go see something I'm entitled to say if i don't like it. So I'm sorta done with this debate as you liked her and that's fine. I thought she was the biggest mary sue since terminator genisys rewrote history to make Kyle Reese the hero (seriously WTF was that? He's stronger , has more muscle and makes sarah connor not the hero anymore). but that is ok too as it's just how I feel.

I posted that video not to continue this pointless debate but rather I felt he explained it better as I know i may be explaining myself wrong. I hope people watch the film and either enjoy it or hate it on their own not because internet tells them.

Also Rouge One could be fun

 

[Captain Canuck]

I can agree with that mostly. But I disagree Rey didn't experience any character development or an arc in the film. It wasn't detailed or original of expansive, but as a cyclical saga in many ways that's to be expected in the into chapters (which TFA was). She discovered her abilities and got swept up in larger events just as Anakin and Luke did. Inherently, how was Luke's or Anakin's arcs in ANH or TPM superior or better?

Luke is a good pilot. He finds out his father was a jedi, gets a bit of training to experience the force, and then that connection with the force helps him destroy the death star. He doesn't fight Darth Vader in the first movie. He doesn't stop Darth Vader from reading his mind or even read Darth Vader's mind. He doesn't use the Jedi mind trick.

Anakin's arc is admittedly much more ridiculous. He is a good pilot and a tech genius. You find out he was apparently from a virgin birth and is obviously really strong with the force, which he demonstrates by being intuitive and a good pilot. Again, he never fights Darth Maul or shows prowess using mind tricks. (I'm not claiming that Anakin had a good story arc in the prequels).

Rey is a good pilot and a tech genius and tough and resourceful and never needs rescued. She has no idea who her parents are. She has no idea what the force. Luke's lightsaber calls to her and she doesn't know why. She bests Rylo Ken with mind stuff and a lightsaber (yes, I know he was injured). She uses a mind trick and it works. Clearly the force is strong with her, but not only that, she knows how to use it.

You're left with one of two responses: 1) That's ridiculous, how can she do that? This character is too perfect, or 2) she must have been trained before. The second response is probably correct, but it's an assumption. I really don't think there were heavy hints, as you put it. Based on the information given, you could just as easily conclude she just is uber gifted and can use the force. To be honest, it never even occurred to me that she had been trained and mind wiped until you mentioned it here. I don't think that's the obvious answer, because other reviews have come up with other explanations (she's so strong with the force that when Rylo tried to read her mind she reacted and pushed him out but by a fluke got into his head too, and when she did that she pulled some of his training out.) But I do like the prior training theory, so I'm going with it. I really hope you're right.

Episode 2 Anakin was more fun like Padme/Anakin was great, Obi/Anakin scenes like "you'll be the death of me" were great, Jango fett was awesome , Obi vs Jango is still one of my favourite fights, and overall the film just felt great.

Hey man, I'm glad you like it. I know other people do too. And I know that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But I actually get this irrational anger towards people who like the prequels. Yesterday, my brother-in-law told me that the originals are boring and that the prequels are better because they're more fast paced. It was a tense few minutes as I sorted through my emotions. (I know it's wrong. But it happens. I'm working on it.) That said, as calmly as I can, I totally disagree with your analysis of Episode II. Those are all the things that made Episode II dreadful and hard to watch. Anakin was whiney and wooden. The romance between Padme and Anakin was so ham fisted and terrible I don't know what else to say about it. Obi-Wan is made to look like a loser and a nag and his relationship with Anakin doesn't ever once look like friendship. Jango Fett was cool, but it was too much fan service and it hurts the mystery of Boba Fett. While we're at it, the whole Sifo Dyas and the clones thing made no sense.

My only complaints with II is I don't like Dooku and yoda jumping around then walking away on stick is silly lol

I agree with you there. We should never have seen Yoda fighting. It ruins his character.

The only good part about Episode II is the huge battle at the end between the clones/jedi and the droids.

Okay, I'm done. No need to argue Mole. This is just a difference of opinion (and not one that really fits in this thread). And I'm not actually mad at you. I was mad at my brother-in-law though. :lol:

 

[Captain Canuck]

hahahahaha, now we know why he turned!

 

[DIrishB]

Max Landis is the worst.

Seriously.

It's not ignoring or "selective approach"

That's exactly what it is when he's ignoring the blatantly obvious evidence and reasons for why things happened as they did. I'm not saying it was perfect, only that it was fun and had its reasons (mainly for setting up next film).

He's leaning entirely on selective hyperbole instead of fairly and evenly examining the film. He makes some fair points, yes, but he also makes some ludicrous points and ignores the evidence offered to do so.

That's the definition of a "selective approach", man.

As I got they may have reasons for everything later and I got that they may have excuses for every complaint. However I don't like characters like that. I want see growth and feel a danger no matter who. Like dragonball would have been **** if goku started as Super Saiyan god or a new Hope would have been crap if Luke was ROTJ Luke

As I said, I saw growth in Rey as a character. We'll see that growth continue as the trilogy does.

I get there is no changing of your mind and thats cool. But there is nothing you can say to me to convince me what I saw what was a great three dimensional character that was not just a "Mary sue"

That's fine. All I ask is you use fair and reasoned arguments to draw your conclusion. Ignoring the evidence offered in the film doesn't allow for that.

There is also no reason to throw around terms like "sexist" as was done,

I never once called anyone "sexist". Perhaps you should go back and read the thread again. Not once.

when we faulted male characters equally too.

I'm still waiting to hear about how Anakin was overpowered from Star Wars fans...

andd quiet frankly it pisses me off that too if you insult a character you think is bad they had better damn sure be the same sex , race and sexuality as you or the SJW have a field day telling us to "check our privilege" or something. I mean Kylo Ren also sucked as I stated but i noticed no one complained about that oh yeah i forgot he's male so I can.

No. Please, stop with playing the victim. No one called you sexist.

All I have been doing is forcing the issue of why Rey is or isn't overpowered and having a discussion using the evidence offered by the film as the basis.

I'm not ignoring aspects of it because it doesn't support my opinion.

I think she was a bad character, I mentioned the film was not the worst SW movie however and at the end of the day if i spent £15 to go see something I'm entitled to say if i don't like it.

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion. I have no problem with your opinion, only the selective and illogical process you and Landis seem to be using to arrive at it.

Again, there's no reason to play the victim, Mole. No one is attacking you or name calling. I'm debating what was shown and what wasn't, and why, and how that relates to explaining Rey's Force powers, how she was able to beat Ren at all (he was shot with a Bowcaster), etc.

So I'm sorta done with this debate as you liked her and that's fine. I thought she was the biggest mary sue since terminator genisys rewrote history to make Kyle Reese the hero (seriously WTF was that? He's stronger , has more muscle and makes sarah connor not the hero anymore). but that is ok too as it's just how I feel.

Well Genisys was horrible so who takes that seriously?

I posted that video not to continue this pointless debate but rather I felt he explained it better as I know i may be explaining myself wrong. I hope people watch the film and either enjoy it or hate it on their own not because internet tells them.

I get why you posted it, but the problem wasn't how you were explaining your position, or even that you came to that conclusion.

You're absolutely entitled to your opinion, I'm just asking you to be fair with it and actually utilize the evidence presented.

So, when Landis indicates Finn almost beat the crap out of Ren, right there his entire argument falls apart because that's a complete lie. Not even close.

Also Rouge One could be fun

I'm sure they'll all be fun.

 

[DIrishB]

Luke is a good pilot. He finds out his father was a jedi, gets a bit of training to experience the force, and then that connection with the force helps him destroy the death star. He doesn't fight Darth Vader in the first movie. He doesn't stop Darth Vader from reading his mind or even read Darth Vader's mind. He doesn't use the Jedi mind trick.

Anakin's arc is admittedly much more ridiculous. He is a good pilot and a tech genius. You find out he was apparently from a virgin birth and is obviously really strong with the force, which he demonstrates by being intuitive and a good pilot. Again, he never fights Darth Maul or shows prowess using mind tricks. (I'm not claiming that Anakin had a good story arc in the prequels).

Rey is a good pilot and a tech genius and tough and resourceful and never needs rescued. She has no idea who her parents are. She has no idea what the force. Luke's lightsaber calls to her and she doesn't know why. She bests Rylo Ken with mind stuff and a lightsaber (yes, I know he was injured). She uses a mind trick and it works. Clearly the force is strong with her, but not only that, she knows how to use it.

You're left with one of two responses: 1) That's ridiculous, how can she do that? This character is too perfect, or 2) she must have been trained before. The second response is probably correct, but it's an assumption. I really don't think there were heavy hints, as you put it.

If you think about it there are. Rey touched the lightsaber and saw the flashes of Ben Solo's turn and slaughtering of the Jedi trainees at Luke's academy. That seems to indicate she witness those events. If she witnessed those events she was there, and why else would someone confirmed to be strong in the Force be at Luke's school other than training? I mean, sure, she could just have been visiting, but training there seems more likely.

I don't think those were "visions" so much as repressed memories resurfacing. Hence her remembering arriving on Jakku as a child, etc.

We saw that she's old enough when she arrives on Jakku to remember who her mother and father were (unless she's never met them, which is possible, but given the Skywalker family saga it's 99% she's Luke's daughter), as she was around 6-8 years old if I recall correctly.

So, either she really never did know her parents, or Luke mind wiped her memories of her past to protect her/part of sending her into hiding.

Based on the information given, you could just as easily conclude she just is uber gifted and can use the force.

You COULD draw that conclusion if you ignore her visions/memories. But to ignore them is ludicrous and an example of that selective approach I was talking about, picking and choosing which aspects you choose to acknowledge in support of the already drawn conclusion she's a "Mary Sue".

To be honest, it never even occurred to me that she had been trained and mind wiped until you mentioned it here.

I'd be really surprised if that doesn't end up being the case.

I don't think that's the obvious answer, because other reviews have come up with other explanations (she's so strong with the force that when Rylo tried to read her mind she reacted and pushed him out but by a fluke got into his head too, and when she did that she pulled some of his training out.) But I do like the prior training theory, so I'm going with it. I really hope you're right.

Honestly, her pulling info out of Kylo's head is more Mary Sue than anything. I'd actually agree with Mole if that ends up being the case. However, I don't think Arndt and the next films' scriptwriters intended or will take that route. I hope not. God that would be horrible.

Hey man, I'm glad you like it. I know other people do too. And I know that's fine. You're entitled to your opinion. But I actually get this irrational anger towards people who like the prequels. Yesterday, my brother-in-law told me that the originals are boring and that the prequels are better because they're more fast paced. It was a tense few minutes as I sorted through my emotions. (I know it's wrong. But it happens. I'm working on it.) That said, as calmly as I can, I totally disagree with your analysis of Episode II. Those are all the things that made Episode II dreadful and hard to watch. Anakin was whiney and wooden. The romance between Padme and Anakin was so ham fisted and terrible I don't know what else to say about it. Obi-Wan is made to look like a loser and a nag and his relationship with Anakin doesn't ever once look like friendship. Jango Fett was cool, but it was too much fan service and it hurts the mystery of Boba Fett. While we're at it, the whole Sifo Dyas and the clones thing made no sense.

I agree with you there. We should never have seen Yoda fighting. It ruins his character.

The only good part about Episode II is the huge battle at the end between the clones/jedi and the droids.

Okay, I'm done. No need to argue Mole. This is just a difference of opinion (and not one that really fits in this thread). And I'm not actually mad at you. I was mad at my brother-in-law though. :lol:

^THIS.

 

[Captain Canuck]

If you think about it there are. Rey touched the lightsaber and saw the flashes of Ben Solo's turn and slaughtering of the Jedi trainees at Luke's academy. That seems to indicate she witness those events. If she witnessed those events she was there, and why else would someone confirmed to be strong in the Force be at Luke's school other than training? I mean, sure, she could just have been visiting, but training there seems more likely.

I don't think those were "visions" so much as repressed memories resurfacing. Hence her remembering arriving on Jakku as a child, etc.

Huh, I don't actually remember that being in the vision. I must have looked down or something. I'm going to watch it again with my wife. I'll re-evaluate at that point.

 

[SSJmole]

I never once called anyone "sexist". Perhaps you should go back and read the thread again. Not once.

Really? let's see I said

Rey - Way to perfect. I don't want to use the term "Mary sue" as that's thrown around way too much so i'll say "Bland" as she did force feats faster and better than Luke (fair enough he wasn't the best) and Anakin (THE CHOSEN ONE) and she had no flaw. Luke was too headstrong at times or just too naive, Anakin messed up a lot. With Rey, better pilot than Han, Better force than any rookie in the films, Picks up gun and fires better than finn.

Because I felt she was a Mary sue then 4 posts later

"Mary Sue" (the battlecry of angry men everywhere it seems in relation to this movie).

Followed by

Here's the thing: no one would would be complaining if Ben Solo had been the one out piloting Han Solo, or being a better tech head or lightsaber dueler, etc.

Yeah lets see

Definition of sexism. 1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women. 2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex.

so yeah saying it's "the battle cry of angry men" and saying if it was male characters no one would complain might not be saying the exact words but come on you have to see how easy is to read that "you hate her because she's female" which THAT is what made me angry and Yes that why i was snarky in pointing out I insulted kylo too no one bats an eye insult the female and yes it felt very SJW. Just saying that that felt like it yes and I hope you can see why mate.

 

[DIrishB]

Really? let's see I said





Because I felt she was a Mary sue then 4 posts later



Followed by




Yeah lets see

so yeah saying it's "the battle cry of angry men" and saying if it was male characters no one would complain might not be saying the exact words but come on you have to see how easy is to read that "you hate her because she's female" which THAT is what made me angry and Yes that why i was snarky in pointing out I insulted kylo too no one bats an eye insult the female and yes it felt very SJW. Just saying that that felt like it yes and I hope you can see why mate.

Mole, you're misinterpreting what I said.

When I responded to your post, I was just coming off reading a bunch of blatantly sexist crap about Rey in a Facebook group I belong to, when I responded to that. And yes, it was blatantly sexist, involving similar dismissive attitude on behalf of a lot of the same male complainers in the same manner as was employed against Mad Max - Fury Road earlier this year with the Furiosa character, or the Hunger Games films, etc.

Apparently it's impossible to have a capable female character without accusations of her being overpowered.

Yet there are multiple male characters who are comparably overpowered who don't get that scrutiny.

Isn't that in some way, shape, or form, at its very base, a form of sexism or chauvinism? At its base there seems to be some double standard at play.

Never once did I call you sexist. I thought it was clear I was referring to the dismissive attitude employed at large, not necessarily individuals. I apologize if you took it personally.

I'm not the type to beat around the bush. If I actually thought you were sexist, Mole, I'd outright say it.

That said, I've been very clear with my assertion that those criticizing are doing so in a selective manner and ignoring evidence that indicates she had Force training.

Your argument to that is to either ignore it completely or to complain that it should've been answered in this film.

It's become a circular debate and isn't worth continuing.

When Episode VIII releases and confirms my theories about Rey being trained in the ways of the Force by Luke, being his daughter, and being memory wiped to protect her from Ren, I'm going to point the finger and pull an "I told you so."

We'll leave it at that. I'm tired of repeating myself and saying the same exact thing in different ways to drive it across, and then having those points be completely ignored in favor of pushing a likely false narrative.

 

[wyokid]

So we're in agreement. Rey is a Mary Sue in The Force Awakens, but most likely not in Star Wars as a whole and that sexism is still a problem in today's society.

 

[SSJmole]

So we're in agreement. Rey is a Mary Sue in The Force Awakens, but most likely not in Star Wars as a whole and that sexism is still a problem in today's society.

Yes and no. Yes to her been on in the force awakens, Yes to the fact the'll shoehorn a way to justify it later and Yes to sexisim BUT it's not all women been treated as double. Example?

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=why+superman+is+the+worst+superhero

lets try supergirl

https://www.google.co.uk/?gws_rd=ssl#q=why+supergirl+is+the+worst+superhero


Oh! the male one has character sucks pages and the fame one? mostly the show and movie. Interesting .... Superman is both male yet always complained he's OP. Supergirl is female with same powers and doesn'r get **** and that's part of my point of it exists both ways lets not pretend it doesn't I mean anything with a male in it now ois now seen as sexist even toy story http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-e...toy-story-3-is-carelessly-sexist-2011742.html

Hence my SJW rant before as not just on here but in general iy's now "cool" to say something sexist as a result people want those cool points for saying it and times when something IS sexist gets lost in the shuffle.


As for DIrishB feel free to pull an "pull an "I told you so."" my point was I interpreted it differently thus felt bad. Like http://screenrant.com/star-wars-7-rey-force-vision-explained/ see they cant figure it out either so its not black or white. I can respect you have a theory but it's not 100% guaranteed so with out it leaves bad taste in my mouth it's all good sorry if i misunderstood why said that soon after my post but I can accept its not all pointed at me. I'm not sure what the future brings. I used anakin as parallel as he was awesome in sequals and i hope rey is too. As i want to like her.

 

[DIrishB]

So we're in agreement. Rey is a Mary Sue in The Force Awakens, but most likely not in Star Wars as a whole and that sexism is still a problem in today's society.

No, because she's not a Mary Sue, she's a Jason Bourne, as has been said.

 

[DIrishB]

Rey's visions: (when she touches Anakin/Luke's lightsaber) she's in a hallway, likely the Jedi academy of Luke's as the hallway immediately begins crumbling and then we see Luke kneeling next to R2-D2; it begins raining and we see Kylo Ren's betrayal and slaughter of the other trainees by the Knights of Ren, we cut to Rey as a child when she's first left on Jakku, crying "come back!" to a ship leaving (presumably carrying one of or both parents, maybe Luke, maybe not)... all of these seem presented as memories of Rey's.

It then cuts to a quick vision of Rey and Ren in the snowy forest on Starkiller base, really the only bit of foreshadowing in any of the visions.

Immediately following Maz says "That lightsaber was Luke's, and his father's before him, and now, it calls to you."

Also, Rey refused the lightsaber and accompanying destiny at first. She also continually was afraid to leave Jakku and wanted to return to pointlessly wait for her parents. She refused to touch the lightsaber ever again, and ran from the palace (and her destiny). After her encounter and capture by Ren, is when she accepted that destiny. Simple, cliched, and troped to death, sure, but still a character arc.

 

[wyokid]

No, because she's not a Mary Sue, she's a Jason Bourne, as has been said.

You make it sound like I've seen a Bourne film :|

 

[DIrishB]

You make it sound like I've seen a Bourne film :|

Which is weird, because you make it sound like you've seen a Mary Sue film.

 

[Captain Canuck]

You make it sound like I've seen a Bourne film :|

You need to watch the trilogy with Matt Damon. Stat!

 

[wyokid]

So how would you guys feel if Poe and Finn hooked up? I feel like it's about time that we had some headlining gay characters in the franchise and an interracial gay couple definitely would make headlines. Rey and Kylo, assuming they aren't related, could hook up too. I see no downside to this.

Which is weird, because you make it sound like you've seen a Mary Sue film.

But I've seen all the Twilight films.

You need to watch the trilogy with Matt Damon. Stat!

Eh. I'm in no rush. I'm not really an action movie kind of guy. I just watched Inside Llewyn Davis which has Poe and Kylo Ren in it. It's a very quiet and surprisingly depressing film by the Coen brothers. Very good.

 

[wyokid]

Column - Admit it: 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' stinks -- and here's why

The simple answer is that "Star Wars: The Force Awakens," is not very good. It's professionally made in the sense that it displays an industrial level of Quality Control. But it's depressingly unimaginative and dull in long stretches, and -- crucially -- reproduces George Lucas' original 1977 movie slavishly almost to the point of plagiarism.

This isn't to say that it's not an enjoyable way to spend a couple of hours. If you're among the millions who plainly have done so, bless your heart. The issue, however, is whether "The Force Awakens" even deserves to be considered as a movie, because it's not. It's the anchoring element of a vast commercial program, painstakingly factory-made for maximal audience appeal, which means maximal inoffensiveness. The result tells us a lot about the state of entertainment today, and about the future of Hollywood.

Modern blockbusters are not enjoyable the way the original "Star Wars" was, because they come at you as artifacts of high finance. Sitting in the theater at "Avatar," I felt like I was being pounded into submission by a giant hedge fund. Watching "The Force Awakens," I felt as though I was being shown a trailer for the next four movies in the series. Except that trailers aren't normally two hours long and you don't have to pay $12.50 to see them.

"The Force Awakens" will reinforce even more strongly a blockbuster, sequel-oriented style of moviemaking and marketing that has sapped Hollywood of its creative energies. Why be creative when that will merely interfere with merchandising, and when recycling is more dependably profitable?

It was said of George Lucas that he originally envisioned "Star Wars" as the first of a trilogy, which became reimagined as a series of three trilogies, and ended with two. Now we're at seven films, and anyone who thinks "Star Wars" will end at nine features doesn't know their Disney. The company, you see, is not really a movie studio, but an entertainment conglomerate. For Disney, "Star Wars" will be the gift that keeps giving. You, the consumer, are the mark who keeps paying.

"Star Wars" sequels, prequels, and requels are destined to be part of moviemaking into the infinite future. One can envision Hollywood eventually turning out only two products: "Star Wars" movies and James Bond movies, each periodically "rebooted" for a new generation of customers by casting the latest new young stars in new costumes facing the same old perils and uttering the same old quips, with every other vestige of creative originality relegated to the void and forgotten.

I agree with this entire article. This movie was as soulless as The Amazing Spider-Man 2 only this had people with talent and Disney dollars behind it.

 

[ProjectX2]

I will simply respond with this.

 

[wyokid]

I will simply respond with this.

Okay, I can agree to that. The whole "admit you're wrong" thing is incredibly rude. I still don't think it was a great film though. Certainly not a 94%, maybe a 60-70%.

 

[Captain Canuck]

I still don't think it was a great film though. Certainly not a 94%, maybe a 60-70%.

I'm with you on that. I also mostly agreed with the parts of the article you posted. Episode 7 wasn't a movie that stood on its own, it was a pilot episode.

 

[wyokid]

I'm with you on that. I also mostly agreed with the parts of the article you posted. Episode 7 wasn't a movie that stood on its own, it was a pilot episode.

Which, in my opinion, movies shouldn't be. I'm spending $10 to go to a crowded, smelly, uncomfortable, and all around unpleasant theater to see a complete story. Yes, it may continue at some point, but a film should be stand alone. I see Hollywood going down a path I do not wish to follow. I feel like I'm repeating myself so I'll quit. Just really worried is all.

 

[E]

I'm seeing that a vast majority of negativity around this movie is being conveyed in the most a-holish way possible.

 

[SSJmole]

I'm seeing that a vast majority of negativity around this movie is being conveyed in the most a-holish way possible.

To be fair so is love or defence