Star Wars Episode VII - The Force Awakens Discussion [SPOILERS]

[DIrishB]

Oh my God... do you guys even know what the definition of Mary Sue/Gary Stu is?

To clarify:

A Mary Sue/Gary Stu is an "idealized fictional character, a young or low-rank person who saves the day through unrealistic abilities."

How is Jason Bourne that at all? His abilities, while extensive, aren't unrealistic or unbelievable in any way. He's a top notch CIA assassin with years of training and field work.

Captain America/Steve Rogers is a Gary Stu. Not Jason Bourne.

 

[SSJmole]

In other words, the term "Mary Sue" is generally slapped on a character who is important in the story, possesses unusual physical traits, and has an irrelevantly over-skilled or over-idealized nature.

Over time, a male variant started to see use. Marty Stu (also known as Gary Stu, for those who prefer rhyme to alliteration) wasn't really that much different from Mary. Also an Author Avatar, it usually had implications of being a male crew member that tended to completely outshine established canon members in their roles and often become the best starship captain, ever. See The Ace. Since the female characters of Star Trek were all in secondary roles at best, the relationship angle was generally disregarded as being any sort of qualifier. Because of the not-entirely-unjustified perception that Most Fanfic Writers Are Girls, Marty Stu didn't really catch on for a long time.

Originally, the term used to apply exclusively to fanfiction, but by the time of Star Trek: The Next Generation, the term "Canon Sue" started seeing use, applying Author Avatar standards to canon works (most likely inspired by the backlash against Wesley Crusher; even Wil Wheaton has decried the character's obnoxiousness). It was around this time that the term started to lose a concrete meaning, since the label started getting applied even to characters who weren't explicit self-inserts (such as the title character of the episode "The Empath"), but just happened to use similar tropes. It was also (most likely) around this time that the term started to gain its pejorative tone.

Finally, the advent of the Internet allowed the term to migrate out of the Star Trek community to most fandoms, losing pretty much any real meaning in the process. There are dozens upon dozens of essays that offer interpretations of what the term means, generally basing it off of some usages of it, but none of them are truly comprehensive or accepted.

There is no "100% confirmed" version that ALL agree on so no. No one really knows. I tend to use it for characters who are OP and seem to pull crap out their ass even if there is some thin reason like "Oh urm .... memory of been a spy" , Also too perfect characters in my eyes. E.g Lana Lang in smallville as everyone loved her in world and everything revolved around saving her. Or Jason Bourne because of the ridicules feats he did so fast , Rey in episode VII , John cena in WWE , Elena in the vampire Diaries (season 3+)


It's unrealistic or unbelievable with him how it comes back when ever he needs it. I guess lazy contrived **** that I would be ashamed to see in an 7 year old's story for school , Is not as fun to write. But that might be me BUT hey there is no real official definition and words and terms evolve.

 

[DIrishB]

There is no "100% confirmed" version that ALL agree on so no. No one really knows. I tend to use it for characters who are OP and seem to pull crap out their ass even if there is some thin reason like "Oh urm .... memory of been a spy" , Also too perfect characters in my eyes. E.g Lana Lang in smallville as everyone loved her in world and everything revolved around saving her. Or Jason Bourne because of the ridicules feats he did so fast , Rey in episode VII , John cena in WWE , Elena in the vampire Diaries (season 3+)


It's unrealistic or unbelievable with him how it comes back when ever he needs it. I guess lazy contrived **** that I would be ashamed to see in an 7 year old's story for school , Is not as fun to write. But that might be me BUT hey there is no real official definition and words and terms evolve.

Mole, you should probably do some research on the topic of muscle memory and adrenaline response.

There was nothing unbelievable about Jason Bourne.

Furthermore, ALL definitions of the Mary Sue/Gary Stu depend on unbelievable or unrealistic abilities. Jason Bourne is presented as an amnesiac top spy/assassin.

So, again, Jason Bourne does not at all qualify as a Gary/Marty Stu. Nor will Rey be when her past is revealed in next couple films.

Furthermore, by your standards, literally the vast majority of protagonists can be labeled as Mary/Gary characters.

I think you're also not applying the believable/unbelievable method regarding the internal logic of each franchise/film/whatever. SW has the Force, LotR had the Ring, etc. None of those things are believable and all qualify as fantastic and unrealistic, but they serve the internal logic of the story being told.

The Bourne films didn't even have to push his abilities beyond the realms of believability where the SW, LotR, Harry Potter, etc films rely on such fantastical elements.

It's a question of how it weighs regarding the internal logic of the story, and in the Bourne films that holds up, just as it will for Rey in this SW trilogy once it's completed.

Mole, why do you not regard Mara Jade as a Mary Sue?

 

[SSJmole]

Mole, you should probably do some research on the topic of muscle memory and adrenaline response.

There was nothing unbelievable about Jason Bourne.

Furthermore, ALL definitions of the Mary Sue/Gary Stu depend on unbelievable or unrealistic abilities. Jason Bourne is presented as an amnesiac top spy/assassin.

So, again, Jason Bourne does not at all qualify as a Gary/Marty Stu. Nor will Rey be when her past is revealed in next couple films.

He jumped across the alleyway and crashed through the window of building and this film as you said it is set in the real world.

Bourne flies through the window without protecting his head, face or neck. At best he would have been sliced up badly; at worst he would have been killed.

I think You should research realistic - representing things in a way that is accurate and true to life.

But if you think the Bourn stuff is not unbelievable or unrealistic abilities go ahead jump through a window and protect NOTHING and see if you are ok. If you are like TOG i'll say "you were correct" If Not however as you kept saying "don't selectively" pick what is real or how it works.




I like the first bourne film well enough but to think it's all real = silly.

Mole, why do you not regard Mara Jade as a Mary Sue?

She was not OP and out of no where as much in her first story she seemed to build to it and THAT makes a big difference plus she was incredibly flawed.

 

[DIrishB]

He jumped across the alleyway and crashed through the window of building and this film as you said it is set in the real world.

I think You should research realistic - representing things in a way that is accurate and true to life.

He kicked in glass paned door windows. There is nothing impossible about that. He was also fully dressed in layered clothing and coming down at an angle using momentum and body weight, and looked to use his boot or knee to lead into the glass.

But if you think the Bourn stuff is not unbelievable or unrealistic abilities go ahead jump through a window and protect NOTHING and see if you are ok. If you are like TOG i'll say "you were correct" If Not however as you kept saying "don't selectively" pick what is real or how it works.

I just explained exactly how it's possible. You're overlooking blatant evidence, once again, to support your point.

I like the first bourne film well enough but to think it's all real = silly.

No one thinks it's real. It's just not insanely unbelievable like you're attempting to make it out to be.

Body weight/forward momentum/leading with foot or knee/glass paned doors (watch closely, they open as he crashed through)/etc can easily accomplish that very simple thing.

She was not OP and out of no where as much in her first story she seemed to build to it and THAT makes a big difference plus she was incredibly flawed.

Rey is also flawed. I'm tired of saying it but will once again and hope you acknowledge it this time:

Rey ran from her destiny after her Force vision. She also contemplated selling BB-8 to the junk dealer, and while she ultimately didn't, just the fact she contemplated it shows she's not the "perfect" character without faults you claim.

It's also pretty clear she'll face her own brush with the Dark Side in the next film, and learning some hard truths about her identity and past, and connection to Ben Solo/Kylo Ren.

TFA wasn't perfect by any means, but it was the introductory film in a trilogy. I find it impossible that they won't explore that territory and force Rey to face her fears/failures/etc, all the stuff that leads to the Dark Side, in next film.

The film stands on its own as an introductory film to the new trilogy, just as ANH did and to a far lesser extent TPM did (just not well). It's not perfect, as I said, and retains a bit too much JJ flair for my tastes, but it's still a lot of fun. And it does deserve to be compared to the originals in terms of quality. Derivative, yes, I agree with that. But nonetheless, a worthy addition to the SW series.

I'd give it 4/5 stars. Maybe a 3/5, but that feels a bit low. Not perfect, but the best Star Wars movie since 1983, easily. Arguably since 1980, depending on your opinions of RotJ.

 

[SSJmole]

I felt rey had NO risk + NO flaws. Cool If you saw. I don't. To me she's a mary sue. Meh



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USHz6TQyXwg&html5=1

He should have a mark

 

[wyokid]

Rey is a Mary Sue. So was Skye in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Is it a flaw? Absolutely, why does it bother you so much DIB? It's a very common problem in action films. James Bond is a Gary Stu, that doesn't stop Dr. No from being the greatest thing.

 

[DIrishB]

Rey is a Mary Sue. So was Skye in Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. Is it a flaw? Absolutely, why does it bother you so much DIB? It's a very common problem in action films. James Bond is a Gary Stu, that doesn't stop Dr. No from being the greatest thing.

It's the double standard applied to Rey versus Anakin/Luke that bothers me, in addition to selectively ignoring evidence that opposes that conclusion. As you said, it's a common occurrence.

I just argue the idea she's a Mary Sue because there are clear hints about her past at Luke's academy witnessing Ben Solo/Kylo Ren's turn to the Dark Side/slaughter of the Jedi trainees. There is clear evidence of her having Force training, through those visions. That's, to me, why she shouldn't be considered a Mary Sue. If I end up being wrong and Episode VIII reveals "it was the Force" or something and that she never was training at Luke's academy, then I'll be wrong, and I'll admit as much.

But Rey's likely training makes her like Bourne or Bond or Black Widow: they're not necessarily Marys or Garys just because they're capable. I think using that term for any character who regularly gets out of jams by the skin of their teeth is incorrect.

It should apply to characters who inexplicably portray skills or abilities. That CAN apply to Rey if she hasn't had Jedi training, but the little evidence we had makes it pretty clear she did.

Again, I think you're incorrectly mislabeling a character's capability (due to training as is the case with Bond, Bourne, and Rey) as unbelievable abilities, i.e. Mary/Gary label.

You claimed Bourne was a Gary Stu despite that not at all being the case.

Captain America is a Gary Stu. His physical powers come from a secret formula, not years of training or innate skill as can be argued about Bond and Bourne (and Rey once Episode VIII reveals her previous Jedi training).

That's an important distinction that you and Mole continually ignore with the Mary/Gary label. Almost EVERY fictional character could have the label applied with the broad swathe you're using, is my point, and I'm not sure that's fair.

I felt rey had NO risk + NO flaws. Cool If you saw. I don't. To me she's a mary sue. Meh

Right. Ok. You don't feel that way. I did specifically point out the couple flaws they gave her (how many did Luke have?), but you're dismissing it as not being there? I mean, opinion is fine, but those were clearly presented as character flaws and moments for her to overcome. Did she? Yes. But that's kind of a common thing for protagonists to do in stories, so I don't get why Rey is singled out for doing what literally almost every fictional protagonist does.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=USHz6TQyXwg&html5=1

He should have a mark

Sure, I'll give you realistically he should have been cut/scratched.

But again, watch it. It's door windows that open as he busts through, with the glass breaking as he does so. Watch it again in the slo-mo portion, he jumps through feet/legs first and ducks and lands, and is moving forward before the vast majority of glass shards begin falling down. Keep in mind he's wearing a thick jacket and denim pants. It's not like he jumped through in his underwear or something.

I feel ridiculous even arguing about this, but this is NOT making your case for you.

 

[wyokid]

I don't recall saying Luke in ANH or Anakin weren't an example of a Gary Stu. They are. The biggest thing for me is the no flaws and being great at everything. It's boring and the main reason I don't really watch action films.

 

[Captain Canuck]

So, would Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Captain America, and probably other superheroes be Mary Sue characters?

 

[SSJmole]

So, would Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Captain America, and probably other superheroes be Mary Sue characters?

Depends on story for me. When batman makes a gambit like knowing deadshot would miss. Yes. A story where they struggle really struggle then no.

 

[thee great one]

haha gary stu

gary stu

you are all the worst

 

[SSJmole]

Right. Ok. You don't feel that way. I did specifically point out the couple flaws they gave her (how many did Luke have?), but you're dismissing it as not being there? I mean, opinion is fine, but those were clearly presented as character flaws and moments for her to overcome. Did she? Yes. But that's kind of a common thing for protagonists to do in stories, so I don't get why Rey is singled out for doing what literally almost every fictional protagonist does.

Except the way this goes is


I feel rey is .... sequels your wrong

I don't like this ...... past crap that may be explained in sequels .your wrong

I don't like characters who ...... Luke did it the 3 movies but she gets singled out when she did more in 1 movie? not fair



It's pointless. hints =/= facts , I think rey did waaaaaay too much in 1 film for 1 character and I never thought "Oh no she'll die!" or "oh no she's at risk" closet to a flaw for me was she started to go darkside but she got over it so fast it's like saying Bella in twlight is instresting because of the 2 seconds a car almost hits her. She was boring to watch , She out did EVERYONE in their respective feild (to the point I bet in VIII she teaches luke thus out lukes luke, not really expecting it but also .... wouldn't be surprised)

The second characters meet her Han = respects , droid = trusts , Finn = loves , Leia = respects. that is dumb. Even Jar Jar had characters insult him as did Anakin (who got was the chosen one yet failed over and over) even Luke had Han doubt him and warm to him very slowly. that feels mary sue.

As I said beating everyone in their thing is Mary sue. Even Lion-o had to cheat to that. She feels like someone wrote episode IV but then made death star bigger , took away personal growth and figured "Meh people will defend this" She felt to perfect and I know "sequels" or "training" or the same recycled crap but THAT is not enough. I dont want a character that seems **** until 4 years later when a sequel comes out.

This film was lazy , the characters bad. and I don't like it. Like i said episode VII = Iv with no heart. Rey = Luke with no flaws. It's dumb you cant tell I felt she was good or at risk or anything as I didnt and she is a mary sue in my eyes.

 

[DIrishB]

I don't recall saying Luke in ANH or Anakin weren't an example of a Gary Stu. They are.

I'm saying the fanbase accusing Rey of being a Mary Sue didn't apply that label en masse to Luke or Anakin, so the noticeable labeling of Rey as such pretty clearly shows some degree of double standard.

The biggest thing for me is the no flaws and being great at everything. It's boring and the main reason I don't really watch action films.

Right. And I've repeatedly said the claim of Rey having "no flaws" is inherently untrue and laid out why. Just as with Luke, we'll see her limitations and flaws laid out further in the next film during her training with Luke and ultimate confrontation with Ren.

They all had flaws. They all trained to attain their Force abilities (though there is some inherent insane strength in the Force due to the Skywalker lineage). So again, the characterization of Gary/Mary in those cases isn't really accurate.

So, would Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman, Captain America, and probably other superheroes be Mary Sue characters?

Captain America absolutely is. He got his powers/abilities from a Super Soldier Serum and went from frail weakling to super soldier in seconds/minutes.

He didn't have to really train for or sacrifice much (well he did experience pain in the MCU version and some comic versions) to attain his powers. He was simply the right man due to his morality. It's similar to how Hal Jordan and other Lanterns attain their rings. Due to their inherent characteristics of the character, they're bestowed incredible powers through some plot device. That's inherently an example of a Gary Stu character. Captain America and Green Lantern do fit that mold, though both likely went through some form of training after attaining their powers to learn how to hone them, the source of those powers defines them as Gary characters.

Wonder Woman was born with her abilities, but still trains insanely to hone and amplify her fighting techniques. So she's admittedly partially a Mary Sue in terms of inherent strength, but in terms of her fighting abilities not, since she earned those through training.

The same can be said about Batman. He wasn't granted his powers, but trained for years in the harshest conditions/environs under the best masters, and does to this day, etc. That said, sometimes the character is written into situations where deus ex machina endings are common, which does add to the Gary label.

And yes, Superman is inherently a Gary Stu.

That said, I think it's far too broad a paintbrush to label every capable character in film/comics/etc as Gary/Mary. I think doing so is inherently untrue to the definition of the term.

 

[DIrishB]

Except the way this goes is


I feel rey is .... sequels your wrong

I don't like this ...... past crap that may be explained in sequels .your wrong

I don't like characters who ...... Luke did it the 3 movies but she gets singled out when she did more in 1 movie? not fair

How did she do more in one movie? She wasn't even directly responsible for blowing up the Starkiller base like Luke was directly responsible for blowing up the Death Star. She was a good pilot/tech head, and fought her severely injured cousin (DUDE HAD BEEN SHOT WITH A BOWCASTER!!!) when she tapped back into her innate Force powers and gained upper hand.

It's pointless. hints =/= facts , I think rey did waaaaaay too much in 1 film for 1 character and I never thought "Oh no she'll die!" or "oh no she's at risk"

Yeah, I never thought Luke would die in OT either. So what's your point? They're the main protagonists of the trilogy, course they're not going to die, let alone in the first movie of that trilogy.

As for being at risk? She seemed pretty at risk when Ren was holding a lightsaber to her throat and Force mind-reading her (which in a sense makes Ren the overpowered one).

And let's be honest... why no accusations of Ren being overpowered? He managed to slaughter much of Luke's academy with the other Knights. He's arguably more powerful than Rey (again, when you continually ignore the fact Chewbacca literally shot Ren in the side with a Bowcaster and act like that didn't give Rey a major fighting chance/advantage, it's hard to debate with you fairly). He's severed his last links to the Light Side.

The next film will undoubtedly have Rey facing a great many challenges, just as Luke did on Dagobah and Bespin in Empire.

You accuse this film of doing too much with Rey while simultaneously accusing it of not doing the stuff it took the OT 2 films to do.

closet to a flaw for me was she started to go darkside but she got over it so fast it's like saying Bella in twlight is instresting because of the 2 seconds a car almost hits her.

More than Luke did in ANH regarding his Light/Dark side stuff. That was addressed in Empire, the second film. You can be sure Rey's struggle with the Dark Side will be a running theme of the second film.

And really? Twilight? Never seen them, but gross.

She was boring to watch ,

That's subjective, but I can respect that. I thought she was a great character, and Ridley did a great job in the role.

She out did EVERYONE in their respective feild (to the point I bet in VIII she teaches luke thus out lukes luke, not really expecting it but also .... wouldn't be surprised)

Again, you're exaggerating. She was a great pilot, yes (a direct correlation to her Skywalker bloodline). She was a tech head, yes (also a direct correlation to her father and grandfather, who built a podracer and T-16 Skyhopper as kids/teens, and had extensive experience in either building droids from scratch in Anakin's case with C-3PO and Luke's experience with droid and other tech on his uncle's moisture farm). She was strong in the Force, yes (again, just like grandad and pops).

Sooooo... if they're following the same formula as Anakin and Luke, why the noticeably larger backlash against Rey? We both know Anakin didn't get that kind of label (unlikable as he was) in Prequels, and certainly not Luke in the originals. Not saying some may not have been of that opinion, but certainly never the vocal labeling of it with Rey. I just find it odd.

The second characters meet her Han = respects ,

Because he recognizes her as his niece and respects how much like her father she is. He's also inherently protective, trying to get her to stay with him and Chewie on the Falcon, which is likely compounded by his loss of Ben to the Dark Side.

droid = trusts ,

Just like C-3PO and R2-D2 trusted Luke.

Finn = loves ,

Least there's no love triangle.

Leia = respects.

Same as Han. See above.

that is dumb.

Eloquent.

Actually, given the obvious hints and comparisons to ANH, it either makes perfect sense or is in line with what ANH did.

Even Jar Jar had characters insult him as did Anakin (who got was the chosen one yet failed over and over) even Luke had Han doubt him and warm to him very slowly. that feels mary sue.

We're really going to compare any lead character to Jar Jar in terms of deserving insults? Jar Jar wins every time.

And Rey was getting Han's gruff responses up until she suggested the bypass, at which point she kind of earned his respect. Remember she spent probably a good 10-15 years living alone and scavenging on Jakku. Her ability to make the best of a bad situation directly correlating to tech makes absolute sense given her background.

It'd be the equivalent of someone who knows ALMOST EVERYTHING about their car, a real gear head, getting a useful tip from a full time mechanic or something similar. Not at all unbelievable.

Keep in mind Han hadn't seen the Falcon in awhile either.

As I said beating everyone in their thing is Mary sue. Even Lion-o had to cheat to that. She feels like someone wrote episode IV but then made death star bigger , took away personal growth and figured "Meh people will defend this" She felt to perfect and I know "sequels" or "training" or the same recycled crap but THAT is not enough. I dont want a character that seems **** until 4 years later when a sequel comes out.

I get it. So different standards for the Sequel trilogy versus Original Trilogy? Because that does seem to be the core of your argument. She didn't even blow up the Starkiller base like Luke blew up the Death Star.

This film was lazy , the characters bad. and I don't like it. Like i said episode VII = Iv with no heart. Rey = Luke with no flaws. It's dumb you cant tell I felt she was good or at risk or anything as I didnt and she is a mary sue in my eyes.

You're entitled to your opinion, but your reasoning is notably selective. At which point did you ever feel Luke was in danger of death in OT? Even getting his hand chopped off first time I saw Empire I knew he wouldn't die because he's the main character.

How was the film lazy, exactly? I'm honestly asking. You keep accusing it of no character development or boring characters, no heart, etc, and you're entitled to think that. I can't refute your opinion. I can debate clues the film gave us, outright evidence the film gave us, and fairly compare this first film in the new trilogy with the first films in PT and OT.

As I said, I think you're simultaneously accusing this movie of doing too much with Rey while not doing enough. I get where you're coming from, but they did the same thing with Anakin in Ep I and Luke in Ep IV, and then in their next respective films they largely tore them down. Doesn't it seem inherently unfair to complain they haven't had Rey facing her biggest challenges in the first film? Doesn't it seem inherently unfair to accuse Rey of being overpowered when she wasn't even directly responsible for the destruction of the planet killing base like Luke was?

I found the film to have a lot of heart. BB-8 was awesome. All the leads were extremely charming and likable.

My biggest complaints are that they didn't give Poe Dameron and Phasma enough to do. Why Phasma wasn't the one fighting Finn during the assault of Maz's base is beyond me. THAT was dumb. Poe Dameron explaining "oh yeah I managed to get away from Jakku" to Finn was lazy.

But if Luke isn't a Gary Stu when Rey is a Mary Sue in your eyes, why? Luke blew up the first Death Star a day or two after leaving his backwater planet.

Rey only managed to defeat a severely injured Kylo Ren.

 

[wyokid]

I'm saying the fanbase accusing Rey of being a Mary Sue didn't apply that label en masse to Luke or Anakin, so the noticeable labeling of Rey as such pretty clearly shows some degree of double standard.

I don't represent the fanbase though. In fact, I'm basically the opposite of the fan base. As far as video goes I only like two of the films and the TCW/Rebels.

Right. And I've repeatedly said the claim of Rey having "no flaws" is inherently untrue and laid out why. Just as with Luke, we'll see her limitations and flaws laid out further in the next film during her training with Luke and ultimate confrontation with Ren.

If you noticed I specifically mentioned Luke in A New Hope. It doesn't matter what happens later, in this film she is a Mary Sue. I'm done with this argument, it's going nowhere.

 

[SSJmole]

The problem DIrishB which you keep glossing over looking how much she did. Lets compaire


Episode I Anakin :

Built c3P0
Won pod race - Barely
Blew up space station - autopilot so he never did much but shoot


Episode IV Luke

repaired droids - Lived on farm so makes sense he could fix stuff
Managed to blow up death star was helped by han
?? beat training droid - if people want to reach i can include it


Episode VII Rey

One scene after been showed how blasters works out shoots a few stormtroopers!
Fixed the falacon for Han
Reversed a mind trick
Used a Mind trick on a guard very fast
Piloted the falcon better than Han
Beat Kylo Ren in a fight
Spoke Wookie (I know but under disney it's litraly called that in a guide)
Spoke droid
Beat Military trained Finn Up
Gets called by Luke/Anakin's lightsaber



You have to see a difference as for not thinking Luke would die in episode V , I did as "No there is another " they could have replaced main character. In IV I felt he was trouble when he was talking about the stuff not working on his ship I thought "OH CRAP" or episode VI where he was almost dead till vader helped. Anakin gets a free pass on thinking he could die because prequel rules means we KNOW already.

She did EVERYTHING better than Everyone and if you dont get that cool. To me she did too much in her first film. As she had the role of Luke , Han , c3po , Leia and Obiwan from IV that's ridicules to me. I get you like her and cool, I want to but she needs to be written better. She not written well to me and you can argue "Sequels" but finding out vader was luke's dad in V did not make luke better or worse in IV , My problems are with her in VII not VIII or IX , she might be great in sequels. Anakin was annoying in episode I and was called godmodded ect... BUT in II he was much better to me. and if Anakin can be called Godmodded , annoying , Whitney , perfect ect.... in Episode I (and by some in sequels) why can't Rey what makes her different to Anakin? THAT is You double standard you keep going on about yet ignore Anakin been treated like crap by fandom.

She DID do more in her first film, Training does not matter as Obiwan had training and didnt do as much and was a main plus the film does not say. In fact her visions are only called visions in book NOT memories. She did beat all the main characters in their field. Like finn. What point does finn serve if his two things are maintenance + shooting and she did BOTH better than him. In OT Han = shooting , Leia = diplomatic , Chewie = strength , Luke = Pilot , C3po = translate and R2D2 = repairs on ship. each has a role with out one the others loose something. ST Rey = Shooting , pilot , repairing on ship , translating ect... So she is the only one we need. THAT is why is now and forever will be a Mary Sue in episode VII


That is how I see it and excuses of stuff NOT explained in movie or in late has NO baring on how a character feels in a movie and she like Mary Sue , She feels perfect and she is maybe the worst main character in a SW movie, Jar Jar was annoying but he didnt take away from importance of the others.

 

[DIrishB]

The problem DIrishB which you keep glossing over looking how much she did. Lets compaire


Episode I Anakin :

Built c3P0
Won pod race - Barely
Blew up space station - autopilot so he never did much but shoot


Episode IV Luke

repaired droids - Lived on farm so makes sense he could fix stuff
Managed to blow up death star was helped by han
?? beat training droid - if people want to reach i can include it


Episode VII Rey

One scene after been showed how blasters works out shoots a few stormtroopers!

EVERYONE outshoots Stormtroopers! I can't believe you'd seriously even say that.

Fixed the falacon for Han

Right, she bypassed something. Not a big deal. Already established her background in tech salvaging, but you keep refusing to accept that.

Reversed a mind trick
Used a Mind trick on a guard very fast

So what? Obvious Jedi training clues be damned, I guess.

Piloted the falcon better than Han

Says who? Now you're claiming she's also a better pilot than Han based on what?

Beat Kylo Ren in a fight

Once again, you minimize and don't tell the whole story. She beat a severely wounded Kylo Ren. He'd been shot with a Bowcaster. The fact he was even still standing after that should make HIM the focus on the Mary/Gary labels, but strangely not so.

Spoke Wookie (I know but under disney it's litraly called that in a guide)

Already established that she learned it from Wookiee traders on Jakku. Not unbelievable.

Spoke droid

So do most people (they're at least able to understand it)

Beat Military trained Finn Up

So? He was a waste disposal guy, I doubt he'd experienced much combat at all, and that's backed up by his past AS A WASTE DISPOSAL tech.

Gets called by Luke/Anakin's lightsaber

Right, because she's a Skywalker. So what!?!

You have to see a difference as for not thinking Luke would die in episode V , I did as "No there is another " they could have replaced main character. In IV I felt he was trouble when he was talking about the stuff not working on his ship I thought "OH CRAP" or episode VI where he was almost dead till vader helped. Anakin gets a free pass on thinking he could die because prequel rules means we KNOW already.

Oh please. Luke was never in any danger of dying in the OT.

She did EVERYTHING better than Everyone and if you dont get that cool. To me she did too much in her first film. As she had the role of Luke , Han , c3po , Leia and Obiwan from IV that's ridicules to me.

The problem is you continually exaggerate and misclassify. She had the role of Luke. That's it.

Luke the great pilot, tech head, and Force Jesus.

That's what Rey was. Han was Han. Leia was Leia. And how the heck can you classify Rey as Obi-Wan? Two completely different characters and roles, Obi-Wan continually being the wise mentor role, Rey never playing that to any degree.

I get you like her and cool, I want to but she needs to be written better. She not written well to me and you can argue "Sequels" but finding out vader was luke's dad in V did not make luke better or worse in IV ,

It certainly adds an important later to Ep IV, as I expect Ep VIII will do with VII.

My problems are with her in VII not VIII or IX , she might be great in sequels. Anakin was annoying in episode I and was called godmodded ect... BUT in II he was much better to me. and if Anakin can be called Godmodded , annoying , Whitney , perfect ect.... in Episode I (and by some in sequels) why can't Rey what makes her different to Anakin? THAT is You double standard you keep going on about yet ignore Anakin been treated like crap by fandom.

There is a difference. Anakin was never likable. Literally NEVER in any of the Prequel films. Rey was in her first.

Still Anakin was arguably far more powerful, piloting wise, tech wise, Force wise, etc.

And we both know there was never the backlash Rey got.

She DID do more in her first film, Training does not matter as Obiwan had training and didnt do as much and was a main plus the film does not say.

Training doesn't matter? Are you kidding me?

In fact her visions are only called visions in book NOT memories.

So the obvious memory of being left of Jakku as a kid was totally different to all the other visions? Doubtful. Was pretty clear all of that was her subdued memories.

She did beat all the main characters in their field. Like finn.

Finn was waste disposal. Maybe when they had to plunge some toilets and Rey wins you'll have a point.

What point does finn serve if his two things are maintenance + shooting and she did BOTH better than him. In OT Han = shooting , Leia = diplomatic , Chewie = strength , Luke = Pilot , C3po = translate and R2D2 = repairs on ship.

How about saving her ass when it was necessary against Kylo? How about helping Poe escape the SD and allow him to get the plans to Leia? That's pretty essential, though I know you'll refuse to accept that.

Also boiling down the characterizations to mere functionary roles is absolutely shortsighted and pretty ridiculous.

each has a role with out one the others loose something. ST Rey = Shooting , pilot , repairing on ship , translating ect... So she is the only one we need. THAT is why is now and forever will be a Mary Sue in episode VII

So, by that logic, Anakin and Luke were OP and Gary Stus. Do you not see the double standard you're applying ONLY to Rey? She's displaying same abilities as Luke and Anakin.

That is how I see it and excuses of stuff NOT explained in movie or in late has NO baring on how a character feels in a movie and she like Mary Sue , She feels perfect and she is maybe the worst main character in a SW movie, Jar Jar was annoying but he didnt take away from importance of the others.

You're entitled to your opinion, I just wish you'd not minimize things that don't support your point and exaggerate things that do. I've pointed out things that aren't subjective (Ren being shot with a Bowcaster, Rey's past, etc).

I'm done debating this with you.

 

[ProjectX2]

You guys have ruined this thread and Star Wars in general.

 

[SSJmole]

and Star Wars in general.

How could we ruin that which has already be ruined by disney?

 

[Ice]

How could we ruin that which has already be ruined by disney?

But you're not Disney...

 

[SSJmole]

But you're not Disney...

Exactly

 

[ProjectX2]

How could we ruin that which has already be ruined by disney?

No one cares that your books aren't in continuity anymore.

 

[wyokid]

How could we ruin that which has already be ruined by disney?

Only everything except Dark Disciple, Aftermath, Battlefront, and The Force Awakens has been good under their tenure. 2 novels, a game made by EA, and a single film, how is that ruined?

 

[Drunken Pickle]

You guys have ruined this thread and Star Wars in general.

This ^^^

 

[E]

You guys have ruined this thread and Star Wars in general.

I hate Star Wars now.

 

[Ice]

I hate Star Wars now.

 

[DIrishB]

This response/article/breakdown was one I really enjoyed.

The Huffington Post's article, "40 Unforgivable Plot Holes in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens".

Over the last few weeks I saw this article reposted over and over both by folks in the film industry and outside of it. The reposts often carried captions from Facebook users like "Yep!" or "This is exactly my problem". Oh ****. Did I miss something? Maybe the Huffington Post and half of Facebook saw something I didn't. I needed to know more. So I read the article. I read it numerous times. In the end, I came to my own conclusion…
The Huffington Post has no idea what the **** it's talking about.

I don't know about the rest of you but I've grown exhausted with the horse****, hater culture that online, millennial 'journalists' use to click-bait their way to some sort of self-perceived intellectual high ground. Hate first. Don't bother asking questions later...

...So what are these "40 Unforgivable Plot Holes" and why is the Huffington Post ass-backward in their review? I blame it partly on the click-bait era. I also think that being a contrarian **** makes people feel intelligent. But those aren't the reasons the review is horse****. It's horse**** because it really seems like the reviewer didn't watch the movie at all...

...As some of you may be able to see, the 'plot holes' outlined in the Huffington Post's article are not plot holes at all. They're simply things to which the reviewer willingly turned a blind eye due to the fact that he went in with a prepossessed notion of what he was going to write. His notion was so strong in fact, that he was able to completely overlook clear and obvious parts of the movie in order to back up the 'facts' of his dumb-****, preconceived article.

That's not journalism. It's internet horse****.

We are very close to reaching the end of social media's usefulness. Anyone with a keyboard can write anything they want with little to no training or skill. More often than not, the articles don't even need to be true or have any sort of back up research and sadly all it takes is a bold, contrarian statement to convince people who aren't interested in doing research for themselves that something wildly incorrect is truth. This extends from simple movie reviews to horrifying humanitarian crises. Actual news has become a rare commodity and we are little more than targets for advertising and electoral votes. We are being fed stupid disinformation and tricked into thinking we have knowledge that we don't actually have.

We have willingly grown stupid.

This sums up my feelings on the issue.

I don't have a problem with people not liking the film. There were aspects I certainly didn't like.

I am just tired of the selective picking and choosing of things to complain about while giving them a pass if it happened in OT, etc.

As someone who is actively involved in politics, I see more than my fair share of BS and selective cherry picking of "facts" that are designed to give only half the story in that arena. Let's be honest, the majority of negative TFA reviews rely entirely on ignoring evidence clearly presented in the film itself (stuff like the claims "Rey's Force abilities came out of nowhere" or that "Ren should have beaten Rey" despite the fact he'd been shot by a Bowcaster, or Rey "being overpowered", but not Luke, who blew up a Death Star, etc). So to see people now doing same with freaking movies kind of makes me sick to my stomach, for the exact reasons listed in that article.

It's extremely and intentionally selective and works to create a somewhat (or outright) false narrative.

I don't care if people like the film or not. I do care if they need to partially lie to make their point, and when you're intentionally only using portions of information while leaving others out, that's what you're doing, and it's the exact opposite of objectivity and rationality. I guess I just don't appreciate the gross schadenfreude.


Funny article, though, and completely on point.

 

[wyokid]

My buddy and I were mocking the one that said you should give plot holes a pass because it's the first in a trilogy.

EDIT: I have now had a chance to read the article you posted and I believe it's the one he was referring to. What a joke.

 

[SSJmole]

See this crap is getting old

As someone who is actively involved in politics, I see more than my fair share of BS and selective cherry picking of "facts" that are designed to give only half the story in that arena. Let's be honest, the majority of negative TFA reviews rely entirely on ignoring evidence clearly presented in the film itself (stuff like the claims "Rey's Force abilities came out of nowhere" or that "Ren should have beaten Rey" despite the fact he'd been shot by a Bowcaster, or Rey "being overpowered", but not Luke, who blew up a Death Star, etc). So to see people now doing same with freaking movies kind of makes me sick to my stomach, for the exact reasons listed in that article.

Yeah like cherry picking the fact people said she could do same as luke had ONE instance She had LOTS in same time. That type of cherry picking? Or Pretending people haven't always said Anakin was a skit character and act like Rey is the first people hate. That type?

The facts are it's a film that may or may not need to explain more stuff and people wanting either more fleshing out or it seems out of no where or people saying it told them is not CHERRY PICKING that is opinion. Get the **** over this idea that everyone is picking on rey because ... what ever reason. Can't be the female thing as no one said this with :Lucy or Kill Bill , can't be the disney thing as no one is saying this about the Star Wars Rebels or people are not claiming captain phasma is.

Some people like myself don't like Rey in the film. The pacing makes it seem like she pulls crap out her ass in a mary sue way. Guess what same thing I said about base kid goku in Dragonball GT. You see i am using that as example as look at Dragonball. Goku is small child with a stick who kicks ass no complains a\s we see him grow we seem fail we see him lean. Skip to GT and everything is just badly written and as result kid Goku in base form (his other forms are not as strong .... why?) is laughed at by fans.


The fact is the movie to some was full of it's self. The whole death star was nothing compared to this is trying way to hard to say "Our star wars is better than Original trilogy or prequel" and when you do that more negatives get seen. Is Rey the worst character in a movie? No. Is as good a lead as Furiosa in fury road? NO. They made her do too many things also the Obi-wan role comment i had made in one of these was she even hangs down to avoid troops the same way. Also Yes as i said she does TOO many things. You can say "LOLz everyone out shoots a storm trooper" But now you are ignoring facts as they hit stuff and the film had to show it, People ran from them, she picks up a gun and having had to be told about the safety showing NO experience she killed a few by outr shooting them. Now look at look. They explained he had shot before and all movie he was be lead to use the force by Obi. So even his death star wars not "wait what?"

Her feat of reversing a mind trick the way she did we have never seen in a film even the prequels when Jedis were in their prime. Also I know Ren was heart by a Bowcaster also the novel says killing his dad made him weaker however your ignoring the horrible pasing of how fast he got out to cut them off, the fact all he did was bang his chest. Basicly the bad acting + awkward cuts make him seem more powerful. I also don't think Ren should actually be shown beating Rey movie one. You see if they HAD to show them fight then he should. However look at a new hope or even phantom Menace , Luke never faced Vader and Anakin never faced Maul. That is better, THAT is a star wars movie tradition. Movie 1 main hero of trilogy never faces villain , Movie 2 get ass kicked , movie 3 kick ass. It's pacing it's tradition it's building.

Rey to me feels like she wont grow as much as Anakin grew or Luke grey as she feels too perfect. It'd be like when I see Creed. I don't care if theyu say he comes from boxing royalty or if he was trained all his life. If he KOs is main opponent in round one I'll call him a too perfect hero compared to Rocky. That's the problem which I hope you cant just ignore it and pass it off as "cherry picking" or "angry males" or "Butt hurt fans" or whatever but the fact is Heroes need to struggle heroes need to overcome and looking mad for 1 second then doing it is NOT overcoming. So to me and others she is TOO perfect. I get shes not to you I really do but you can't ignore the fact that when things are vague or not well paced or implied or whatever people read into differently. It's not "cherry picking" its opinion and you really cant compare politics to watching a film as if you do and if you only go with the facts then ok .... These 2 movies are almost the same quality http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/mighty_ducks/ http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1077027-batman_and_robin/ one is 15% one is 11% right? But i think we all know the first Mighty ducks is beloved by a lot and Batman & robin is considered one the worst films ever. That's weird to say almost same quality.


So looking at rey and seeing the negatives is not bad. It's just a case of the excuses are weak to people or others dont see the good. It's a film opinions is all we can give i mean if we accept only "facts" then fact Babe http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/1065598-babe/ is better than most movies including ALL the star wars movies .....including this , New Hope and even Empire. I love babe but ... come on!