Ultimate Ages

[Hawkeye101]

Maybe Fury wasn't the first member of SHIELD, and Hawkeye's membership began earlier on, he just didn't rank as high si had less to do with SHIELD's build-up, something Fury is given credit for. Also, who's to say he didn't start SHIELD in the mid to late 1980's, then went to fight during the Gulf War, then returned to SHIELD once the war was over? You're assuming a lot again.

No, now you are. If Hawkeye was a member of SHIELD first, they why is Fury higher in rank than Hawkeye? Fury is a grunt in the flashback. A regular joe-shmoe in the army. Probably promoted for that endevor (if he isn't a grunt, he's very low rung or he wouldn't be leading a convoy, he'd be directing things at a base). Hawkeye is UNDOUBTEDLY lower rank than Fury is, so in 1991, it is safe to say that Hawkeye has yet to enter the military.

 

[DIrishB]

Im still waiting for a decent argumanet for my discoveries.

As for the FF, Just before they went public, Johnny Storm was sent to Midtown High, as a senior, hes 18. Reed, Sue, and Ben wer 21 when the first one came out, and by now they are all caught up with the rest of the UU, so their about 22, but I'm willing to go to 23. Daredevil was a sophomore or Junior at Colombia University when he met Elektra who was 17 at the time.

Ok, I almost agreed up until here. Its possible, but unlikely she was starting University at 17. I put her at 18 in UDD&E, and still 18 or possibly 19 in Ultimate Elektra, since it takes place only a few months later.

To have your own law firm, you'd at least have to be 24 (as stated by a real-life lawyer).

AT LEAST! I'd say its more appropriate to assume Matt and Foggy opened there own firm sometime in their late 20's.

Even younger if you took college courses in High School, sa at least 24, and since Matt was always a book worm. . . any way, DD=24 or <, Elektra 21 or <, since we have no idea exactly how much time has surpassed between Devil's Due to the present in the UMU. In UMTU DD tells Spider-Man to 'come back in 10 years, after SM admits to being 16. This really doesn't specify DD's age, but close to 26 I'd imagine to specify ten years.

Spider-Man is still 15.

And Hawkeye is in his early thirties...I'm telling you.

 

[Hawkeye101]

Ok, I almost agreed up until here. Its possible, but unlikely she was starting University at 17. I put her at 18 in UDD&E, and still 18 or possibly 19 in Ultimate Elektra, since it takes place only a few months later.



AT LEAST! I'd say its more appropriate to assume Matt and Foggy opened there own firm sometime in their late 20's.



Spider-Man is still 15.

And Hawkeye is in his early thirties...I'm telling you.

In the back of the Ultimate Daredevil and Elektra trade in the sketches, it said that Elektra had to look like a seventeen year old girl. I was just stating that the youngest age of DD is 24 (note the greater than sign next to the number). And every one seems to go with the SPider-Man is 15, so I now will too (I was basing his age off of the discussion that he and DD had in UMTU).

 

[DIrishB]

No, now you are. If Hawkeye was a member of SHIELD first, they why is Fury higher in rank than Hawkeye? Fury is a grunt in the flashback. A regular joe-shmoe in the army. Probably promoted for that endevor (if he isn't a grunt, he's very low rung or he wouldn't be leading a convoy, he'd be directing things at a base). Hawkeye is UNDOUBTEDLY lower rank than Fury is, so in 1991, it is safe to say that Hawkeye has yet to enter the military.

No, as I said, Fury could've just transferred his military rank. Also, as I said, Fury could've started SHIELD before the Gulf War, served during the war, then began working with SHIELD again after. You keep missing the obvious answers, instead prefering the most overly drawn-out, most difficult to explain ones instead.

In the back of the Ultimate Daredevil and Elektra trade in the sketches, it said that Elektra had to look like a seventeen year old girl.

Right, so why don't we just base it off the fact that she's attending college as opposed to a note for the artist to base her age on, huh? This goes back to what I was saying about answers.

I was just stating that the youngest age of DD is 24 (note the greater than sign next to the number). And every one seems to go with the SPider-Man is 15, so I now will too (I was basing his age off of the discussion that he and DD had in UMTU).

Ok.

 

[ourchair]

No, now you are. If Hawkeye was a member of SHIELD first, they why is Fury higher in rank than Hawkeye?

Whether that speculation is true or not, consider that some people's careers move faster than others. Duh.

 

[MoS]

God help me, but I must point out that:

DD=24 or <

as written, means that the poster thinks that Daredevil is equal to or less than 24. DD > 24 would mean that Daredevil is greater than 24.

Sorry.

As far as the formation of SHIELD - in the first issue of The Ultimates, Banner asks Fury about "the new job" and Fury talks about being the head of SHIELD. The way I took that is that a branch of the military, already called SHIELD or something like it, was spun into a newer, larger entity. They wear military uniforms, they ARE mostly military, but somehow outside the normal chain of command - sort of like a branch (Army, Navy, Air Force) but somewhat outside of regular Pentagon control. It's too big of an organization to have just been put together out of nothing.

 

[Hawkeye101]

As far as the formation of SHIELD - in the first issue of The Ultimates, Banner asks Fury about "the new job" and Fury talks about being the head of SHIELD. The way I took that is that a branch of the military, already called SHIELD or something like it, was spun into a newer, larger entity. They wear military uniforms, they ARE mostly military, but somehow outside the normal chain of command - sort of like a branch (Army, Navy, Air Force) but somewhat outside of regular Pentagon control. It's too big of an organization to have just been put together out of nothing.

SHIELD was long established by this point. General Ross was the first General of SHIELD. As stated later at the grand opening of the triskelion.

 

[DIrishB]

SHIELD was long established by this point. General Ross was the first General of SHIELD. As stated later at the grand opening of the triskelion.

Doesn't mean it was long established. I see SHEILD as a by-product of the end of the Cold War in the Ultimate universe, a military and espionage organization. It probably grew with time, gaining more of a work-force and budget. And while Ross headed it before Fury, who's to say someone didn't head it before Ross?

 

[Hawkeye101]

Doesn't mean it was long established. I see SHEILD as a by-product of the end of the Cold War in the Ultimate universe, a military and espionage organization. It probably grew with time, gaining more of a work-force and budget. And while Ross headed it before Fury, who's to say someone didn't head it before Ross?

No one, except that it has been said that Fury was one of the founders, which means at the most SHIELD it's self is only Thirty years old, and that's only IF Fury got right on it after Vietnam. AND if SHIELD were that old, then using the 'Few years back' line from Hawkeye doesn't do **** for your argument. Because if SHIELD was taking down the Soviets long before that point, then what was left to take down a few years ago?

 

[DIrishB]

No one, except that it has been said that Fury was one of the founders, which means at the most SHIELD it's self is only Thirty years old, and that's only IF Fury got right on it after Vietnam.

You're arguing my point dude. I'm saying SHIELD probably isn't that old at all, and you're just arguing the same point. I'm saying it grew out of the end of the Cold War, which is the 1980's up until the early 1990's. Therefore I'm assuming SHIELD was started during the 1980's. And Fury may have been one of the founders, but that doesn't mean someone else wasn't in charge, before him or Ross. In fact, its more likely.

AND if SHIELD were that old, then using the 'Few years back' line from Hawkeye doesn't do **** for your argument. Because if SHIELD was taking down the Soviets long before that point, then what was left to take down a few years ago?

He could just have been generalizing for one. I make reference to MORE than a few years ago all the time with just that line. If he weren't generalizing in the first place, he'd say the specific amount of time (8 years ago).

Second, don't get some little e-attitude with me. Just because you're desperate to prove your not very well researched theories and the fact I end up pointing out the holes in those theories is no reason to get pissed off at me. I'm only trying to offer constructive critisism, something you're very often asking for regarding your theories/fan fics, so don't try and jump down my throat for it.

 

[Hawkeye101]

You're arguing my point dude. I'm saying SHIELD probably isn't that old at all, and you're just arguing the same point. I'm saying it grew out of the end of the Cold War, which is the 1980's up until the early 1990's. Therefore I'm assuming SHIELD was started during the 1980's. And Fury may have been one of the founders, but that doesn't mean someone else wasn't in charge, before him or Ross. In fact, its more likely.



He could just have been generalizing for one. I make reference to MORE than a few years ago all the time with just that line. If he weren't generalizing in the first place, he'd say the specific amount of time (8 years ago).

Second, don't get some little e-attitude with me. Just because you're desperate to prove your not very well researched theories and the fact I end up pointing out the holes in those theories is no reason to get pissed off at me. I'm only trying to offer constructive critisism, something you're very often asking for regarding your theories/fan fics, so don't try and jump down my throat for it.

Whoa! :shock:

That came off as jumping down the throught! I'm sorry, no intentions whatsoever.

I guess, and I seem to keep hoping around it, my point is it IS possible for Hawkeye to be under thirty, not that it is ACTUALITY. But, if my question is posted in Wizard 170, we shall know correct ages soon enough.

 

[DIrishB]

Whoa! :shock:

That came off as jumping down the throught! I'm sorry, no intentions whatsoever.

I guess, and I seem to keep hoping around it, my point is it IS possible for Hawkeye to be under thirty, not that it is ACTUALITY. But, if my question is posted in Wizard 170, we shall know correct ages soon enough.

Of course its possible for him to be under 30, and I was only pointing out why it was unlikely for him to be so. And hopefully they do answer your question in Wizard.

 

[Pandrio]

Whoa! :shock:

That came off as jumping down the throught! I'm sorry, no intentions whatsoever.

I guess, and I seem to keep hoping around it, my point is it IS possible for Hawkeye to be under thirty, not that it is ACTUALITY. But, if my question is posted in Wizard 170, we shall know correct ages soon enough.

Well, for all we know, some writer who feels like disregarding continuity could make Hawkete 16 or 80. Any age is possible, unless they say it in the cmics themselves. And then it's just a continuity problem. You seem to think Hawkeye's under thirty and that's all fine and dandy, I just don't see the reason why you keep trying to prove it to everyone else.
I agree that Hawkeye could be under 30, but I don't think he is, and you're not going to change my mind. I doubt you're going to change DIrishB's either. So, when you keep arguing points it comes off as DIrishB said

desperate to prove your theories... jump[ing] down my throat

 

[ourchair]

You seem to think Hawkeye's under thirty and that's all fine and dandy, I just don't see the reason why you keep trying to prove it to everyone else.

I nominate "discussions about Hawkeye's exact age" as candidate for Most Uninteresting Discussion Topic. It's right there next to Bond rumors.

 

[E]

I nominate "discussions about Hawkeye's exact age" as candidate for Most Uninteresting Discussion Topic. It's right there next to Bond rumors.

Ugh. Thank you.

I understand that some people might be interested in discussing it, but this has gone far past the boundries of a sane discussion.

 

[UltimateScarletWitch]

Ugh. Thank you.

I understand that some people might be interested in discussing it, but this has gone far past the boundries of a sane discussion.

Now, now, boys, play nice. This is a place for people's ideas, yes? So let them have their ideas. If you don't like it, don't come in here.

 

[DIrishB]

Ugh. Thank you.

I understand that some people might be interested in discussing it, but this has gone far past the boundries of a sane discussion.

Which is why its perfect for Ultimate Central.

 

[Blacksword]

I have a response to Hawkeye's 'Return to Weapon X' proof.

Couple things to consider, when we first see Wraith in UXM #2 neither he or any of the soldiers with him are wearing any special insignia. Yet we know from the next Arc that weapon X is a SHIELD division. So we see here that sometimes the Weapon X division of SHIELD wears no insignia during cover operations... like what they were doing in the Gulph War.

Second in the flash back in Return to Weapon X there's no hint that Fury's a grunt. He's the guy on the radio talking to command, and rather than an M16 or a machine gun he's holding a handgun. Seems pretty clear to me that he's some sort of junior officer.

Third, everyone uses the term Weapon X which while at this time only refers to Wolverine. Now in the future we know Weapon X is a SHIELD program with Wraith in charge. Wraith is in charge back in 1991, so it's pretty much certain that Weapon X was a SHIELD program in 1991 too.

Finally given that Weapon X is top secret (as experementing on mutants to make souless super weapons would tend to be) it would make sense that when working with regular forces Weapon X soldiers and officers wouldn't wear any identifying insignia.

 

[ourchair]

I have a response to Hawkeye's 'Return to Weapon X' proof.

Couple things to consider, when we first see Wraith in UXM #2 neither he or any of the soldiers with him are wearing any special insignia. Yet we know from the next Arc that weapon X is a SHIELD division. So we see here that sometimes the Weapon X division of SHIELD wears no insignia during cover operations... like what they were doing in the Gulph War.

Second in the flash back in Return to Weapon X there's no hint that Fury's a grunt. He's the guy on the radio talking to command, and rather than an M16 or a machine gun he's holding a handgun. Seems pretty clear to me that he's some sort of junior officer.

Third, everyone uses the term Weapon X which while at this time only refers to Wolverine. Now in the future we know Weapon X is a SHIELD program with Wraith in charge. Wraith is in charge back in 1991, so it's pretty much certain that Weapon X was a SHIELD program in 1991 too.

Finally given that Weapon X is top secret (as experementing on mutants to make souless super weapons would tend to be) it would make sense that when working with regular forces Weapon X soldiers and officers wouldn't wear any identifying insignia.

I have a feeling that even the editorial people for Ultimate Marvel (or whoever is managing the universe bible) doesn't know the straight dope on the chain of command between SHIELD and Weapon X.

 

[Blacksword]

Most likely

But it looks like Wraith had overall command of the project, even from the early days (when it would have been very small given that they only had Wolverine). General Ross would be his immediate superior, and Fury at one point a junior officer who when promoted to Colonial moved out of Weapon X. Or Weapon X may not have been a separate division back in '91 if Wolverine was the whole program. We'll probably find out more about Weapon X as time goes on. Let's just hope it doesn't get as complicated as it did in 616.

But in the end the point is that nothing in the flash back to the Gulph War proves that SHIELD wasn't in existence back then. Given that the two men would would be high ranking SHIELD officers by 2002 and were working as part of the Weapon X project which was also under SHIELD by 2002, it is most reasonable to suppose the whole thing was under SHIELD at that time as well. Especially since it's very common for black ops troops to carry no insignia, and we know that Weapon X operatives have done that on occassion.