Ultimate Handbook 2005 USM & UFF [editor notes begin on pg. 7]

[Stuart]

:rockon::rockon::rockon: Yay, someone with at least some effect on the Ultimate Marvel Universe is here!!!:rockon::rockon::rockon:
So, yeah, I understand most of the explanations for mistakes in the Handbook and I'm glad it wasn't that Professor Storm's name was Franklin William Storm (Although I could see that being a way of getting around this in the future).

Oh, the double barrelled name excuse for characters having conflicting names given did come into play a couple of times in this Handbook - points to whomever can tell me the two places this happened (iirc - might have been three places, but I think it was just two - remember, I worked on this Handbook several months ago, and we're already working on next year's books now).

 

[Pandrio]

Oh, the double barrelled name excuse for characters having conflicting names given did come into play a couple of times in this Handbook - points to whomever can tell me the two places this happened (iirc - might have been three places, but I think it was just two - remember, I worked on this Handbook several months ago, and we're already working on next year's books now).

Well one was MJ's dad, Greg Craig Watson.

 

[Stuart]

Well one was MJ's dad, Greg Craig Watson.

Correct.

And now I recall, there was an additional instance of an apparent continuity error in names which we explained away, though it didn't result in double barrelled names.

 

[DIrishB]

Re: Ultimate Handbook 2005 USM and UFF

Apparently so - though, as stated, an explanation for the discrepancies is promised eventually.

I SO look forward to that day.

however in this case, we were asked to steer clear of the UFF issues, so we neither contradicted the explanation to come, nor gave it away prematurely.

This is good news that plans are at least in motion for an explanation.

I've seen it, and it is very good. I deliberately steered clear of looking at it too closely prior to writing the Handbook, as I wanted to make sure the timeline decisions made came from mine (and the other writer's) own readings of the actual comics, plus the information supplied by the Ultimate writers and editors. That we seem to largely agree (as far as I can tell) on the order of events does please me though, as you've obviously put a lot of work into it, and so where we both reached the same conclusions independently it suggests to me we both probably got it right.

Thank you sir. And as I said, in regards to the UFF ordering in regards to other titles, if an explanation is going to be offered, I can draw conclusive placements from that. Thanks though Stuart.

It is out of place, though not as much as you suggest. As you said, it can't go where the sentence implies, since Peter lacked a costume at the time. The error arose because the profile was originally much longer and had to be trimmed down; at some point during that process, the sentence order got rearranged, and what should have been the latter half of the sentence which began that paragraph became the former half. The Danny Rand encounter doesn't come between Learning Curve and Double Trouble, because at the start of Double Trouble Ben Urich has only seen Spidey up close during the Doc Ock fight, according to his dialogue with Jameson. He hasn't interviewed him yet, or else he would cite that encounter (and knowing what Spidey's voice sounded like) while arguing the bank robber was an imposter.

At the end of Double Trouble MJ dumped Peter, and the impression given by the Venom story suggests this follows on pretty well immediately. True, the Danny Rand encounter is so brief, it could have been slotted into a gap early in the Venom tale, before Peter lost his costume, but given Peter's state of mind, I doubted he'd be in the mood to spend time giving Urich a coherent interview - he was too busy moping. It had to happen before the Kingpin tale, as during that story Spidey's name was mud anyway (so JJJ's glee at having something negative to say about Spidey would have been out of place) and that story resolved itself with JJJ re-evaluating his hostile stance towards Spidey. Hence the decision was made to place it just after the Geldoff encounter, when he had finally gotten MJ and his costume back, and was in a better frame of mind. However, as stated, at some point the two halves of the sentence in the profile got switched round - it should have read

"Shortly thereafter, Spider-Man got back together with Mary-Jane; offered guidance to unstable...; and stopped martial artist....during a street fight."

Ok, I can buy that. Just cuz of that I'm going to amend the Timeline to place it correctly. Let me know about the UXM #1/2 once the Handbook is out...assuming the Handbook doesn't tell us, but from the descriptive bios in the first Ultimate Handbook, I don't see that being the case.

That might have been Millar's initial plan, but if so, Human Torch's appearance in USM marked a change in that plan.

He said it relatively recently, probably about 3 months ago or so. He had posted it as an answer to a question regarding the UFF placements. He mentioned it was important to him to have the UFF be the first super-team and to have gotten their powers first (except Cap), and Bendis' inclusion of the FF in the USM SS #1 also indicates he was working along the same guidelines. So like you said, the plan changed at some point.

What you've said he planned is exactly what I put forward as a solution to the apparent continuity glitches, and I was told "No, it won't fit with what is to come." (or words to that effect).

I'm excited about that.

I don't doubt it. However, so do I, and the other writers, and we had the advantage of being able to pick editorial and writer brains and see advanced storylines.

Yeah, how do I get a gig like that? Thats what I do for fun...I'm such a nerd. :lol:

Author's original intention can and does get superceded all the time, or else 616 Wolverine would be a teenager and the son of Sabretooth.

Good point, but considering the author intended it to be read in a certain order (in regards to continuity anyway) I prefer to do so.

It's not the editors - maybe I should have made it clearer - when I presented the "UFF came first, and we have big gaps between arcs to bring them up to present day" solution, my editors took it the various Ultimate editors, who took it to the writers, at least one of whom then said (paraphrased) "It won't fit our coming stories". The writers have plans, which I don't know (because that way I can't accidentally let slip), didn't ask to know, and don't wish to either pre-empt or contradict.

I see. And with those upcoming story plans, I'm excited and looking forward to seeing how it all works out.

I totally agree with that - titles are. However little throwaway nods to the UFF prior to their appearance aren't.

True.

Once they explain it, then yes, I suspect we won't have to ignore the references any more. But it seems the explanation won't be "It happened some time ago". That may have been the original plan Millar intended, but it looks like someone (Millar, the new FF writers, BMB or someone else) went "Hey, I have a really cool way to explain all this, better than that original idea", and they've gone with that instead. Happens a lot in comics.

Understandable, and like I said, once that happens we'll be able to place everything concretely.

Basically, ignore all mentions to the UFF before UFF #1 until it's properly fixed. Millar and Bendis' original intentions seem to have changed, then.

Also, if this is true, then the USM Game would also have to occur after "Meet Me" and before "Hobgoblin".

Exactly, yet Meet Me takes place a week before the Hobgoblin arc, and during that time Peter was busy with the Dr. Strange team-up. Its possible the game could fit in by breaking up the later levels more during the Superstars arc.

 

[Stuart]

Re: Ultimate Handbook 2005 USM and UFF

I SO look forward to that day.

Me too - but keep in mind that with the current trend for drawn out storylines, we might not see the explanation for a few years (or more)...or we could get it next month.

Ok, I can buy that. Just cuz of that I'm going to amend the Timeline to place it correctly. Let me know about the UXM #1/2 once the Handbook is out...assuming the Handbook doesn't tell us, but from the descriptive bios in the first Ultimate Handbook, I don't see that being the case.

Will do.

He said it relatively recently, probably about 3 months ago or so. He had posted it as an answer to a question regarding the UFF placements. He mentioned it was important to him to have the UFF be the first super-team and to have gotten their powers first (except Cap), and Bendis' inclusion of the FF in the USM SS #1 also indicates he was working along the same guidelines. So like you said, the plan changed at some point.

Or the plan incorporates that somehow, while still having them be recent (figure that one out, if you can). Or someone didn't tell Millar the plan has changed...

Truth is, I'm not privy to who made what decision on the UFF stuff - I know the editors were consulted, and they consulted writers, but exactly which ones consulted what ones, and why I got the answer I did...

Yeah, how do I get a gig like that? Thats what I do for fun...I'm such a nerd. :lol:

Your asking the wrong person - we all did it for fun too (and still do, but now we're getting paid for it), and we didn't seek the gig out - it came to us.

Good point, but considering the author intended it to be read in a certain order (in regards to continuity anyway) I prefer to do so.

I can understand that.

 

[E]

Well, we can just ignore the UMTU issues, though I personally prefer not to, and apparently that view is shared by writers and editors (hence much of it being reconfirmed in other Ultimate titles). I don't have the answer as to how the earlier UFF references fit, and deliberately didn't try to find out, as it wasn't something I could have revealed in the Handbook (or here either); that's the job of whichever writer eventually tells the story explaining things. So your last comment is the most accurate of all - the editors know, but don't want to divulge...yet.

Understood. Makes sense. I disagree when you say we can ignore issues, but I think it's a moot point anyway, because I'm sure (and you seem to be sure too) that we'll get an explanation anyway.

Thanks again for answering people's questions and discussing things with us.

 

[cmdrjanjalani]

Well, we can just ignore the UMTU issues, though I personally prefer not to, and apparently that view is shared by writers and editors (hence much of it being reconfirmed in other Ultimate titles). I don't have the answer as to how the earlier UFF references fit, and deliberately didn't try to find out, as it wasn't something I could have revealed in the Handbook (or here either); that's the job of whichever writer eventually tells the story explaining things. So your last comment is the most accurate of all - the editors know, but don't want to divulge...yet.

I also believe that one can't simply ignore the UMTU issues especially since some of them have already been mentioned and incorporated into the regular books. In Blockbuster, it is clear that Wolverine and Spidey have met before, and Wolverine already knows Spidey's secret identity based on UMTU. The flashback in Ultimates Vol.1 regarding Spidey battling the Hulk is another. The Daredevil and Punisher arcs seem unneccessary, but I don't see any problem incorporating them. Bendis had stuck with his origin story for Punisher, as well as Dr. Strange, now that you've mentioned it. The Lizard and Man-Thing story is undeniably part of it, and the only encounter so far with Connors' Lizard persona is in UMTU. Other "filler" stories with Shang-Chi, the X-Men, I see no problem at all.

The problems currently coming out now is obviously the USM Super Special because of the FF appearance, and apparently the Iron Man appearance as well (thanks to UIM :evil: ). For me though, while you can write these two off, the biggest continuity problem comes from the Black Widow storyline since it has established the existence of a certain Victor von Doom as ruler of Latveria, and the incident (down to Spidey's web shooters getting stolen) is recalled in the Blockbuster arc as well. But I think there's still a good chance to explain this away, like making Victor von Doom a different character, maybe just a stereotypical politician that Ultimate Doom kills off and takes over his throne.

 

[ourchair]

Re: Ultimate Handbook 2005 USM and UFF

However, for now, we have to just glance past all those little nods and references, in the same way we do when a specific president or other real life figure is referenced in a story to make it feel current (because in five years time, it can't be that specific president, thanks to the ever present sliding timescale).

Exactly.

I've always believed that one of the general rules of superhero comics, and not just the Ultimate Universe, is that it is in a constant state of retcon. While 616 Peter Parker may have grown up listening to twist records and being called a 'wallflower' in his teenage years, his wife Mary Jane spent her twentysomething acting years getting into glamorous daytime soaps and trying to get parts in Schwarzenheimer (i.e. Schwarzenegger) action movies.

As such, my personal rule tends to be if something recently published contradicts something published before, the former takes precedence over the latter unless explicitly contradicted AGAIN or opened up for debate by another writer.

Of course, that would mean Batman has been in a continuously time travelling between an age of 1940s automobiles and hypergothic 80s architecture back and forth ENDLESSLY, but I don't really care much. And even then, a DC example isn't necessarily appropriate for what I'm trying to illustrate.

In any case, this is why Iron Man's Vietnam origins and Stephen Strange's origin echoing 1960s spiritual pilgrimages aren't something I consider a hard-lined fact, save for providing fodder when you do a literary analysis of the characters and books as products of their time.

If KS was named elsewhere, then I haven't - anyone who reads old issues of Marvel Age can see plenty of examples of planned names, characters and plots which never made it to fruition (anyone remember the New Mutant team member Cougar? Nope? Case in point, because he was shown and named as part of a sneak preview in Marvel Age, but got dropped somewhere before making it into the comic.)

I can't remember specific examples, but you're right on that. There have been numerous occasions in comics where characters and plot threads were detailed in sneak previews of behind-the-scenes features didn't reflect the final product, as is frequently the case in any creative medium and/or industry.

Stuart agrees with me. Bass' prophecy is fulfilled. My power increases tenfold.

 

[Stuart]

Understood. Makes sense. I disagree when you say we can ignore issues,

Oh, we can ("hey! You! Issue #3. I ignore you; you do not exist in my world."), I just don't think we should. 8)

 

[Stuart]

I also believe that one can't simply ignore the UMTU issues especially since some of them have already been mentioned and incorporated into the regular books. In Blockbuster, it is clear that Wolverine and Spidey have met before, and Wolverine already knows Spidey's secret identity based on UMTU. The flashback in Ultimates Vol.1 regarding Spidey battling the Hulk is another. The Daredevil and Punisher arcs seem unneccessary, but I don't see any problem incorporating them. Bendis had stuck with his origin story for Punisher, as well as Dr. Strange, now that you've mentioned it. The Lizard and Man-Thing story is undeniably part of it, and the only encounter so far with Connors' Lizard persona is in UMTU. Other "filler" stories with Shang-Chi, the X-Men, I see no problem at all.

The problems currently coming out now is obviously the USM Super Special because of the FF appearance, and apparently the Iron Man appearance as well (thanks to UIM :evil: ). For me though, while you can write these two off, the biggest continuity problem comes from the Black Widow storyline since it has established the existence of a certain Victor von Doom as ruler of Latveria, and the incident (down to Spidey's web shooters getting stolen) is recalled in the Blockbuster arc as well. But I think there's still a good chance to explain this away, like making Victor von Doom a different character, maybe just a stereotypical politician that Ultimate Doom kills off and takes over his throne.

Okay, I should have made myself clearer. I can be a bit pedantic when it comes to wording (back in the old days, when someone asked me "Do you have a pen?" [meaning "Can I borrow a pen?"], I'd give them an answer of "Yes, I do have a pen, thanks."). We CAN ignore those issues; it's real easy to do so. However (1) I don't think we should, and that view seems to be shared by BMB and others, who refer back to them in the various instances you list (and which we also mention in many cases in the Handbooks); and (2) we HAVEN'T ignored them. But we are certainly capable of doing so if we want to.

As for stuff where we see pictures of armoured, 616-style Doom, or hear his name given, or anything else like that, at the moment we do ignore them; they will either eventually be explained, as promised, or else they will go the way of various topical references (added to give the story depth and contemporary feel at the time, swept away by the passage of time in the real world which is not matched in the comics one, and implicitly replaced with generic similar reference of the current readers era).

 

[Stuart]

Re: Ultimate Handbook 2005 USM and UFF

In any case, this is why Iron Man's Vietnam origins and Stephen Strange's origin echoing 1960s spiritual pilgrimages aren't something I consider a hard-lined fact, save for providing fodder when you do a literary analysis of the characters and books as products of their time.

What the Handbooks tend to do is treat it as canon, but gloss over the specific country Iron Man got injured in, etc. As an example, it might make still make sense for Punisher to be a Viet Nam vet now (just about), but in another decade, he'll be pushing 70; at some point the war he fought in will become "generic East Asian country war" - the events that shaped him preserved, just not the exact location. Not ideal, but given the options, the best one in the circumstances.

I can't remember specific examples, but you're right on that. There have been numerous occasions in comics where characters and plot threads were detailed in sneak previews of behind-the-scenes features didn't reflect the final product, as is frequently the case in any creative medium and/or industry.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/cougarmarvage.htm
The New Mutant who never was.

 

[David Blue]

Oh, we can ("hey! You! Issue #3. I ignore you; you do not exist in my world."), I just don't think we should. 8)

From my point of view, as an Ultimate Fantastic Four fan, why not? Seriously.

The stories in the Ultimate Fantastic Four trade paperbacks are reasonably consistent thus far. They can be canon.

From the point of a straight Ultimate Fantastic Four fan, isn't it better to say to the whole of UMTU: "Hey you, Team Up! I ignore you; you do not exist in my world."?

If stuff is only useful to the extent that it can be reconciled with Ultimate Fantastic Four, and that is my perspective, then what is the good of this other stuff that either can't be reconciled, or that won't be? (I have in mind DIrishB's ideas, which look OK in themselves, but obviously not if the writers and editors are going to disregard them.)

If the handbook is factually unreliable (is it William or Franklin Storm?), and is prepared under Marvel orders not to reconcile that which needs to be put in order, then why is it not best to say to it too: "Hey you, Handbook! I ignore you; you do not exist in my world."?

I'm not criticising anyone making this stuff. You've explained that: you work under orders. I accept that when orders are carried out, those who gave the orders (though not necessarily customers of the eventual product) are well served, and faithful workers must be respected and rewarded for this.

But, as long as the product is useless mess, and policy is not to reduce the mess, not to reduce uncertainty (which is to say not to provide information), it honestly looks better to me to ignore it.

Is there even a serious counter-argument that could be made, that follows from my starting point?

 

[Pandrio]

From my point of view, as an Ultimate Fantastic Four fan, why not? Seriously.

The stories in the Ultimate Fantastic Four trade paperbacks are reasonably consistent thus far. They can be canon.

From the point of a straight Ultimate Fantastic Four fan, isn't it better to say to the whole of UMTU: "Hey you, Team Up! I ignore you; you do not exist in my world."?

If stuff is only useful to the extent that it can be reconciled with Ultimate Fantastic Four, and that is my perspective, then what is the good of this other stuff that either can't be reconciled, or that won't be? (I have in mind DIrishB's ideas, which look OK in themselves, but obviously not if the writers and editors are going to disregard them.)

If the handbook is factually unreliable (is it William or Franklin Storm?), and is prepared under Marvel orders not to reconcile that which needs to be put in order, then why is it not best to say to it too: "Hey you, Handbook! I ignore you; you do not exist in my world."?

I'm not criticising anyone making this stuff. You've explained that: you work under orders. I accept that when orders are carried out, those who gave the orders (though not necessarily customers of the eventual product) are well served, and faithful workers must be respected and rewarded for this.

But, as long as the product is useless mess, and policy is not to reduce the mess, not to reduce uncertainty (which is to say not to provide information), it honestly looks better to me to ignore it.

Is there even a serious counter-argument that could be made, that follows from my starting point?

They will come up with a way of fixing the glitchs in UMTU. If you want to disregard that its fine, but with it being referenced in other comics, it can't be completely ignored. If they come up with a reason for the references and appearance in the Super Special (President Thor maybe?) of the FF, would you still disregard it? And as for Fanklin or William Storm it was explained here.

 

[David Blue]

They will come up with a way of fixing the glitchs in UMTU.

I hope so.

If you want to disregard that its fine, but with it being referenced in other comics, it can't be completely ignored.

This "can't" would not be the basis for a useful debate.

If they come up with a reason for the references and appearance in the Super Special (President Thor maybe?) of the FF, would you still disregard it?

Fixed is fixed. Like most comic fans, I'm quick to forget problems in the past.

And as for Fanklin or William Storm it was explained here.

Thanks for the link.

 

[DIrishB]

From my point of view, as an Ultimate Fantastic Four fan, why not? Seriously.

The stories in the Ultimate Fantastic Four trade paperbacks are reasonably consistent thus far. They can be canon.

From the point of a straight Ultimate Fantastic Four fan, isn't it better to say to the whole of UMTU: "Hey you, Team Up! I ignore you; you do not exist in my world."?

If stuff is only useful to the extent that it can be reconciled with Ultimate Fantastic Four, and that is my perspective, then what is the good of this other stuff that either can't be reconciled, or that won't be? (I have in mind DIrishB's ideas, which look OK in themselves, but obviously not if the writers and editors are going to disregard them.)

If the handbook is factually unreliable (is it William or Franklin Storm?), and is prepared under Marvel orders not to reconcile that which needs to be put in order, then why is it not best to say to it too: "Hey you, Handbook! I ignore you; you do not exist in my world."?

I'm not criticising anyone making this stuff. You've explained that: you work under orders. I accept that when orders are carried out, those who gave the orders (though not necessarily customers of the eventual product) are well served, and faithful workers must be respected and rewarded for this.

But, as long as the product is useless mess, and policy is not to reduce the mess, not to reduce uncertainty (which is to say not to provide information), it honestly looks better to me to ignore it.

Is there even a serious counter-argument that could be made, that follows from my starting point?

Just wait. I think the timeline screw-ups regarding UFF will finally be explained in the upcoming President Thor arc, running from UFF #27-29. After all, it does involve time travel.

 

[Pandrio]

This "can't" would not be the basis for a useful debate.

OK, you could completely ignore UMTU, but the mentions in the other titles make it harder to do. If you are only talking about the UFF references, then yyeah, there isn't much trouble in forgetting about them. However, without UMTU at all, the Hulk flashback in Ultimates #2 and the Lizard flashback in some issue of USM don't make much sense. So, for the best understanding you can't ignore all of it.

 

[DIrishB]

OK, you could completely ignore UMTU, but the mentions in the other titles make it harder to do. If you are only talking about the UFF references, then yyeah, there isn't much trouble in forgetting about them. However, without UMTU at all, the Hulk flashback in Ultimates #2 and the Lizard flashback in some issue of USM don't make much sense. So, for the best understanding you can't ignore all of it.

I agree with Pandrio, as usual.

 

[David Blue]

Just wait. I think the timeline screw-ups regarding UFF will finally be explained in the upcoming President Thor arc, running from UFF #27-29. After all, it does involve time travel.

That could be it.

If so, I think it would even be cool, I mean having a time travel story have consequences that heal a troubled continuity rather than mess it up. I'll wait and see, as you suggest.

In this case, I think a Handbook edition dealing with the Ultimate Fantastic Four that came out after the President Thor arc would be far more useful than one that came out before it.

 

[DIrishB]

That could be it.

If so, I think it would even be cool, I mean having a time travel story have consequences that heal a troubled continuity rather than mess it up. I'll wait and see, as you suggest.

No guarantees, mind you, but it seems the most likely place for it to be addressed.

In this case, I think a Handbook edition dealing with the Ultimate Fantastic Four that came out after the President Thor arc would be far more useful than one that came out before it.

Definitly.

 

[Stuart]

From my point of view, as an Ultimate Fantastic Four fan, why not? Seriously.

The stories in the Ultimate Fantastic Four trade paperbacks are reasonably consistent thus far. They can be canon.

They are canon. no "can be" about it. How much someone does or does not like a given story has zero bearing on whether it is canon.

From the point of a straight Ultimate Fantastic Four fan, isn't it better to say to the whole of UMTU: "Hey you, Team Up! I ignore you; you do not exist in my world."?

Nope, because much of UMTU has been referenced back in other titles.

If stuff is only useful to the extent that it can be reconciled with Ultimate Fantastic Four,

So it doesn't matter whether it affects anything other than UFF? Such as Ultimate Spider-Man, for instance. Are the rest of the Ultimate titles only useful to the extent they can reconcile with UFF?

and that is my perspective, then what is the good of this other stuff that either can't be reconciled, or that won't be? (I have in mind DIrishB's ideas, which look OK in themselves, but obviously not if the writers and editors are going to disregard them.)

With all due respect to DIrishB and his excellent timeline or ideas, it's not a case of writers and editors disregarding his ideas. It's not like any of the Ultimate writers or editors have made a conscious decision to look at his timeline and then say "I'm going to disregard this", it's simply that they have their own plans and ideas, and to be brutally honest, they are not going to take any person online's ideas into account when making those plans.

If the handbook is factually unreliable (is it William or Franklin Storm?),

Already covered by Pandrio linking to my earlier post. One error does not mean you can discount the entire Handbook.

and is prepared under Marvel orders not to reconcile that which needs to be put in order,

We were quite prepared to reconcile it, but since that would blow plans for future storylines and revelations, we didn't. I work for Marvel; of course I'm going to follow any such orders they give me, because that's my job.

then why is it not best to say to it too: "Hey you, Handbook! I ignore you; you do not exist in my world."?

Your choice entirely to ignore anything you like, but as to whether it is best to ignore something just because you don't like it...

I'm not criticising anyone making this stuff. You've explained that: you work under orders. I accept that when orders are carried out, those who gave the orders (though not necessarily customers of the eventual product) are well served, and faithful workers must be respected and rewarded for this.

You make it sound like I'm a member of the Communist party politburo in the old U.S.S.R.! How would it serve customers (e.g. readers) if the Handbooks were to give away spoilers for future storylines?

But, as long as the product is useless mess,

How is it a "useless mess"? Apart from leaving off covering the FF continuity issues, which is for the sake of future stories, we've covered stuff as faithfully and fully as we can.

and policy is not to reduce the mess, not to reduce uncertainty (which is to say not to provide information),

Again, only in regards of the FF continuity question, for the reasons detailed several times now.

it honestly looks better to me to ignore it.

Is there even a serious counter-argument that could be made, that follows from my starting point?

Yes, I believe so, and I think several other posters made the case quite well.