Ultimate Spider-Man # 74 discussion (SPOILERS)

The more I think about it, I keep thinking Captain may have something. I was convinced Harry would be Hobgoblin, but the appearance of Shaw has got me thinking. Perhaps Bendis is going to do something similar to 616's Hobgoblin, where everyone thought they knew who it was and it turned out to be somone else. Maybe we're all supposed to assume its Harry, but it turns out Harry's only pulling the strings and Shaw is the one who is the Hobgoblin.

But then, I got to thinking about character motivations.

1.) Norman considered Peter to be his son because Pete inadvertently became SM due to Osborn's genetic research. So Norman thereby thinks he birthed Spider-Man, in a weird, sort of convoluted way.

2.) Norman never really looked at Harry as a son, as is evidenced in the first issue where Harry is reminding Norman about his class visiting Osborn Industries the next day. Norman is on the phone and yells out to his wife to "Get YOUR kid out of here!" **This may also tie into the BIG secret Bendis has been hinting about.** For whatever reason, its evident that Norman views Harry as weak.

3.) Despite this, its evident that Norman still held a place in his heart for Harry, as is evident in his restrain when Harry shows up in the middle of Norman's fights with Spider-Man in both Legacy and Ultimate Six. Its also evident Norman has future plans for Harry with the whole hypno-therapy thing, and the fact that the therapist is reporting directly to, and very possible following the direction of Norman. This is also evident in his having Shaw contact Harry (as seen in #73) and reveal Norman's big plans for him by taking him to that underground whatever-it-is.

So, perhaps since Peter rejected Norman's concept of "family" back in Legacy and Ultimate Six, Norman moved on in a sense. Maybe he gave up on Peter as his genetically enhanced "son", and decided Harry, as his biological son, would embrace his plans. His plans being for Harry to truly become his son and heir, and overcome his "human weakness" by taking the OZ formula and becoming something else (Hobgoblin). Of course, he'd have to come to this decision before Ultimate Six, as he's been in cryo-stasis ever since. But maybe his attempt at bringing Pete "into the family" in Ultimate Six was a last ditch attempt, and he'd set up the Harry becoming Hobgoblin plan with Shaw's assistance beforehand, in case Pete still resisted (which he did).

4.) Harry has shown already he's got a vendetta against Pete. For one, Norman chose Pete over Harry as his son - that kind of behavior tends to breed jealousy. Two, Harry has already threatened he'd "kill you all", something he said directly and discreetly to Pete alone at the end of Ultimate Six. Third, the whole MJ dating Harry before Pete is more motivation for Harry to want to rub Spider-Man out.

Point is, I really don't see Norman entertaining the thought of allowing someone else (ie Shaw) "into the family". He's a very narcissitic guy, and Shaw becoming Hobgoblin sort of goes against all that. Its possible that Shaw, or someone else entirely, does in fact become Hobgoblin, but I'm 100% positive that Harry will be the one to take the OZ and go on a city-wide rampage. Its just gotta be! (or else I'm going to feel like a total fool, hehe).
Benefit of the doubt

im really not trying to play spoiler in these threads, as i have speculated often and been correct, if not close to....

harry called pete up at the end of the issue....what could he have wanted??

he wanted help as he wishes to help pete.....

he wanted pete to bring the costume..

pete is going to have to be spidey and either "help" harry out by doing something pete doesnt want to do.....

the real secret is...that everything that happened in issue 73 has already happened....what you didnt see is what happened in that bunker....

shaw has showed harry potential there, stuff that he is supposed to do for norman and what norman had planned for his son...

this isnt necessarily the idea to become hobgoblin, but more or less his fortune albeit....

1 shaw could be a guinea pig and harry could have him fight against pete to see what the oz serum is capable of...
this would be provided by the idea that shaw shows harry a machine to become hobgoblin and harry chooses to have shaw test it, or shaw had transformed into the hobgoblin behind the scenes on his own...

2 same goes for harry, shaw could allow harry to become the hobgoblin himself either way, come april 6th, we will find out as one of these scenarios is the correct answer....

why shaw would return after a lengthly absence is not just a coincidence....shaw is there to throw us all off from believing what should be obvious....harry as the hobgoblin....in the eyes of the reader, it is harrys divine right to become the hobgoblin......but that would simply mean harry is gone from the book shortly afterwards.....but what real purpose would someone like shaw have for becoming the hobgoblin......wouldnt have have showed up already if he wanted to kill spider-man....again?!

it would be funny in the midst of all this, harry harry harry, it turned out to be shaw....

i dont see the character serving any purpose other than being killed off by osborn if harry takes the serum....maybe he will stick around to help harry out behind closed doors.....


could the loose end be that osborn chose to test the serum on shaw before he tested it on himself???

the loose thread is obviously involving shaw, but i dont want to say toooo much here....i hope this gives you enough facts and things to think about Mr. Irish...

have a nice day

- The Captain
Personally I'm thinking Shaw's reappearance is due to him being the only one who knows about the underground bunker. If Shaw didn't show up, Harry would have no idea of his father's plans for him. I don't know, Shaw is too much of a background character in my opinion, but like I said, watch it not be Harry (and very possibly Shaw). But based off character motivations, reasons for wanting Pete dead, it makes more sense for it to be Harry. Shaw has nothing personal against him, he only tried to kill him before because he was following Osborn's orders. If Shaw were to be the Hobgoblin, why wait until now to become him and go after Spidey?
close enough

ultimatedjf said:
There is another new review of this issue.

To get to it, first go to www.herorealm.com/Reviews.htm

There you'll see the big picture of a shadowy Captain America. Click on it.

At the bottom of the page it'll bring you to is the review. Again, some of you may disagree..... (Not me!!!!!! :D )

I agree with this review, but i think it should have been 4 and not 4 1/2....the thing is, just like the guys at fourthrail.com, i dont think they read ult spidey each month like most of us do....so them just getting in on this issue means they werent around for the sub par superstars arc, many like myself want some interaction between pete and a major villain and not just that, just the book moving forward and not stuck in the past 9 months that the entire series has been oriented around.
i want my money back for buying this issue, i could have waited three months and bought them all at once...it was that bad, the only good part was when spidy lost it and beat up a black guy with a gun called Hennery. Which is one page out 30?

ultimatedjf said:
Actually, on Herorealm, they always review USM. BUT, on Herorealm, they always (well usually) give comics great reviews. :wink:

oh is that so, well djf, if you would be so kind to show me the last 3 issues of usm that they reviewed (73, 72, 71) that would be nice...cause i doubt they reviewed all three being as though you say they always review the book....
maybe i am wrong and they do, but i view that site often and i rarely see them review usm, though they review it a hell of a lot more than thefourthrail.
to the goodwill-mobile!!!

nigma said:
i want my money back for buying this issue, i could have waited three months and bought them all at once...it was that bad, the only good part was when spidy lost it and beat up a black guy with a gun called Hennery. Which is one page out 30?

ultimate spider-man these days reads like parts of a whole...in a six issue arc, the first 3 are going to be set up issues when it comes to bendis...the 4th issue is the revelation/fight scene/ the 5th is the continuation/resolution...and the sixth is usually a reflection of the conspiring events....

I myself do not really care for arcs where the whole thing is centered around a villain, i prefer arcs that have a theme to them...like the first, second, and 3rd arcs.....although the 4th arc was around gg, it was really good. but when an arc called venom, carnage, hobgoblin and so fourth, the writing pace gets kinda dull to me, but its still some of the best stuff coming out of marvel right now so i deal with it...im still looking forward to "warriors" (im wondering if these is really what it will be called) and i expect it to be along the same vein of cats and kings....
Actually, I liked this issue more than I have a USM for quite a while. The slow burn or Harry being really creepy is interesting to me. I liked the idea of MJ and Spider-Man talking, rather than MJ and Peter talking. It felt as though he really is building a very clear wall between them.

So, here's me complaining about Bendis going to pot in other threads, and this 'unpopular' issue was my favourite one in about 6months.

Shows what I know :)
Three or four months from now when i re-read the entire arc as a whole I won't find it as bad, hell, I'll probably like it then, but the single issue slows it down to where all you have to rate is the issue. But hey, I guess marvels got to make it money some how right
nigma said:
Three or four months from now when i re-read the entire arc as a whole I won't find it as bad, hell, I'll probably like it then, but the single issue slows it down to where all you have to rate is the issue. But hey, I guess marvels got to make it money some how right

i understand, i was that way with the carnage arc......it took forever, but i enjoyed the story more when i could read the parts i wanted to read in it....april 6th and 20th, you will appreciate bendis more then ( i hope....crosses fingers)
I just got the first 3 issues of the Hobgoblin story arc from my friend in Los Vegas who brings me comics every month. And the issue is way different when reading all 3 of them at once. The story is meant to be tied together and not really by themselfs. I thought it was pretty good.
Well, I finally got the issue and, while I haven't gotten my UXM yet, I'll be ablet to talk with you guys about this. I've decided to stay away from spoilers from now on (It's about as hard as hanging up smoking, even though I don't have any idea how difficult that is... I don't smoke). Anyway, I did get the issue, so now I can contribute!

The issue was a very good issue and one that I thought was very accurate in terms of what each side of the argument would've said, with Peter/ MJ, Peter/Harry, and Harry/MJ. It was very realistic in terms of characterization and I thought that, with that purpose, it came out really good. The particular scenes that stuck out to me was with Peter and the NYPD and when Peter took off his mask... Those were moments that have convinced me that Bendis should stay. He's got it back with this issue.

One thing that I didn't like, though, was the ending. It seems too similar to what Norman was going to do in Ultimate Six. Just from the sound of Harry, I gathered that Harry was going to use Spider-Man to do his dirty deeds and, while Peter is indebted to Harry rather than serve his "father" Norman this time, I still feel that this isn't a departure from the other goblin stories that we've had. I'd like to see something different with a character.
be careful what you wish for

youd like to see something different....like..lets say harry manipulating pete to fight shaw-goblin....pete looking for help from de wolfe(spelling)...getting his butt whooped even further until SHIELD comes into play??? :wink:
Well, I'd rather the Hob leave out Spider-Man and do something on his own. Like I said, this is turning out to be Ultimate Six without the lackeys.
I think the one for USM looks better, personally. It doesn't have all of the little teasers littering the cover or anything.

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