Ultimates 3: YOUR WAY

Zombipanda said:
That's the problem. I feel it IS broken.

I don't mean that Millar ****ed things up on the Ultimates. I think that he's intentionally been building up to a split between the Ultimates and SHIELD. If they stayed with SHIELD now, it would feel like all that tension throughout Ultimates 2 just hadn't paid off. Just because they're an independent team doesn't mean we wouldn't see plenty of Dubbya and SHIELD throughout.

I mean, if these guys go off to form their own superhero team, they'll be making SHIELD their enemy.

Yea they will be making SHIELD their enemy and we can't have that happen because it'll just be 616 Avengers all over again with a another possible CIVIL WAR. and i cant have that happening in the UU there's enough tension between each and everyone of the characters as it is.
 
Ultimate MJ said:
Plus, wouldnt it be a rip off of Authority if they split off from the government?

Well, The Authority were never really "with" the government. They just opposed them.
 
Ultimate Cap 4 President said:
Yea they will be making SHIELD their enemy and we can't have that happen because it'll just be 616 Avengers all over again with a another possible CIVIL WAR. and i cant have that happening in the UU there's enough tension between each and everyone of the characters as it is.

Wait.... What?? You're worried about Ultimates plots maybe somewhat resembling The Avengers? Huh? Isn't that the whole damn point? I'm not talking about a nationwide Civil War. I'm talking about following a natural path that Ultimates seems to have been leading up to for a while now. They finally have something to avenge, and I don't think it would really make very much sense at all for the Ultimates to stay with the government after everything that was done to them, not without some dramatic changes.

UltimateM said:
Plus, wouldnt it be a rip off of Authority if they split off from the government?

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and I do charity work for kids with Down's Syndrome (not really). We're not talking about an ambiguous force of superhumans who decide to rule the world on their own. It would be a book with the same moral ambiguities as Ultimates 2 but just as an independent peace-keeping force.
 
I don't think that the Ultimates should break away from the government.

Large groups of superheroes running around with no supervision is not very Ultimate and would only lead us in record time to an Ultimate Civil War.

But maybe they could break away from SHIELD.

SHIELD itslef is running around doing whatever it wants and NIck Fury is much like J Edgar Hoover in the amount of latitude he enjoys inside the the US government.

After such big messes, that might have to end.

The Ultimates could end up under constant supervision from a Congress Comitee or something like that. Could be fun. Oh, the Ultimates won't like that and will break all kind of hell, but it could be fun.
 
Zombipanda said:
Wait.... What?? You're worried about Ultimates plots maybe somewhat resembling The Avengers? Huh? Isn't that the whole damn point? I'm not talking about a nationwide Civil War. I'm talking about following a natural path that Ultimates seems to have been leading up to for a while now. They finally have something to avenge, and I don't think it would really make very much sense at all for the Ultimates to stay with the government after everything that was done to them, not without some dramatic changes.



That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, and I do charity work for kids with Down's Syndrome (not really). We're not talking about an ambiguous force of superhumans who decide to rule the world on their own. It would be a book with the same moral ambiguities as Ultimates 2 but just as an independent peace-keeping force.

Dude (i can't believe i just said that but...) The point of the Ultimates isnt to resemble the Avengers what so ever. Thats why they exist in a different Universe completely... If i wanted to read 616 avengers stories i'd shell out an extra 3 bucks a month to read it.... but back to the point... the UU's point is to show the realist approach to superheroes in the 21st century without all the history and background of the original Marvel Universe. Whats the point of an Alternate demension if youre gonna keep it the same as before... you tell me. "SHOCK AND AWE" these are the ingredients that give the Ultimate Universe the success its recieved so far... Its not suppose to be predictable. Oh and they are called the ULTIMATES not the ULTIMATE AVENGERS if you want that name you can watch the crappy films Marvel's using to gain control over the world.
 
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The Ultimates SHOULD be different from the 616 Avengers, but there is one thing I wish they'd emulate : a monthly format. I don't particularily care for maxi-series after maxi-series.
 
Jack of Hearts said:
The Ultimates SHOULD be different from the 616 Avengers, but there is one thing I wish they'd emulate : a monthly format. I don't particularily care for maxi-series after maxi-series.
I'd be alot cooler with it if they'd stick to a release schedule on the maxi-series.
 
Sure, 616 Avengers and Ultimates should be different. But there should still be similarities. The writers shouldn't be worried about it looking "too much Avengers" and be more worried about telling consistent, natural stories. And I think it would be a tough sell to just have the Ultimates still working for SHIELD. It's not about "being predictable". It's about following the natural progression of the story. If you think moving the Ultimates away from the government is going to close off any options for original, interesting storytelling, then you aren't thinking big enough.
 
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Ultimate Cap 4 President said:
Taking the Ultimates away from SHIELD would be the stupidest thing to do for Ultimates 3. It would take The Ultimates away from everything that was good about the last two volumes. And anyway with cap being government dog he is in the UU he wont join them if they did split from SHIELD... besides we still gotta worry about who's gonna survive to see Ultimates 3 and how thats gonna effect the team. :noway:
I Agree. I like the Ultimates as a military group that serves the desires of the american government and handles direct action situations in a military manner killing any and all rogues they encounter especially traitors(Widow, and Giant Man should so be executed). I do wonder how they get around posse commitus though, provisions similar to FBI:HRT maybe?
 
What about an Ultimates Clones? think about it, the government with any brains will do this kind of stuff as a back-up plan. Have the clones go crazy and breaks out of wherever they are and have the real Ultimates go after them. At the end of it have the real Ultimates win the fight and questions the government intention. I really want to see Ultimate Hulk vs Ultimate Hulk.
 
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What about an Ultimates Clones? think about it, the government with any brains will do this kind of stuff as a back-up plan. Have the clones go crazy and breaks out of wherever they are and have the real Ultimates go after them. At the end of it have the real Ultimates win the fight and questions the government intention. I really want to see Ultimate Hulk vs Ultimate Hulk.

This is why I was hoping the UU would avoid the two biggest pit falls in 616.

1) Clones.
2) Time Travel.

USM and UXM are both taking on one of those right now, and UFF had time spiders and punching dinosaurs...(although I thought the time travel was well done and fun like the FF should always be) this does not bode well for the UU. IMO.
 
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This is why I was hoping the UU would avoid the two biggest pit falls in 616.

1) Clones.
2) Time Travel.

UXM and UXM are both taking on one of those right now, and UFF had time spiders and punching dinosaurs...(although I thought the time travel was well done and fun like the FF should always be) this does not bode well for the UU. IMO.

Eh. I disagree, sir. The 616 Universe was ****ed up by bad writers with hugely different ideas creating a continuity that makes no sense. Time travel and clones can work well, when they're used as devices to serve the main story, rather than the centerpiece of the story itself.

Case in point, the Terminator series. Killer robots keep coming back in time to change the future, but whatever happens always just ends up delaying the inevitable, instead of stopping the apocalyptic future. It's a story about time travel, but it keeps it simple, and clings to a singular theme, without letting time paradoxes and parallel universes run the show.

On the other hand, we have the 616 Universe, where the future son of X-Men comes back in time to stop the future son of X-Men from wiping out the X-Men because he ran fast enough to cause the world to rotate back in time, got trapped in the Speed Force, and became exposed to N-Zone radiation, thereby turning his blood into both the cure for AIDS and a delicious fat free ranch dressing, triggering the effect that resulted in ****ty alternate timeline clones popping up everywhere and making the Avengers Disassemble.... or something.... Does anyone actually know WHAT happened there?

On the other hand, we have an Ultimate story that keeps itself simple. Somewhere in the future, the X-Men's actions lead to a dystopian society, and John Conner's come back in time to prevent that from happening. Our boy Kirkman seems to be keeping it simple. Instead of being a story about time travel, it's a story that reveals more about present character's agendas and provides a sympathetic villain. The current X-Men are still the principal axis of the story. As long as they don't let it get convoluted, I think it will work. X-Men and time travel are a nice fit.

Same with Spider-Man. As long as Bendis can keep the story about Peter, make it believable, and not introduce too many unnecessary complicating elements, it will work (but I'm worried he won't). I feel like the Clone Saga's a part of the Spider-Man legacy, and it has to be touched on somewhere.

And let's be honest. The Fantastic Four without alternate dimensions and time travel is like James Brown without soul.

Just keep the time travel and clones out of my Ultimates.
 
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This is why I was hoping the UU would avoid the two biggest pit falls in 616.

1) Clones.
2) Time Travel.

UXM and UXM are both taking on one of those right now, and UFF had time spiders and punching dinosaurs...(although I thought the time travel was well done and fun like the FF should always be) this does not bode well for the UU. IMO.

I gotta disagree partly.

The time travel....I dislike incredibly. But I'm ok with clones so long as they served a valid purpose and don't become gimmick (ala Scarlet Spider).

I could totally see a clone story in Ultimates. Especially when you tie it into something existing.....like say Ultimates Annual #1.

Fury realizes that Cap won't be around forever and that the team as well as America can't do without a Cap America. So far all successful attempts at recreating the super-solider serum have yet to happen (excluding the Arab from Ultimates 2---I wish I could remember his name). So Fury comes up with the idea of instead trying to create another Cap......why not create another Cap? No random kid from Michigan. No...a full on Steve Rogers clone. An army of them. And say they go rogue and it's up to the Ultimates to stop them but the clones are defective, blah blah blah.

I know it's not a great story but you get the idea. Cloning I can deal with when done properly. Not like the gimmicky effect in the current Clone Saga (despite how entertained I am at it---its still gimmicky).


But I'm rambling now......
 
I'm afraid I'm jaded on clones and timetravel, and even in 616 both started off nice, but became a sloppy gimmick in later years. They're a can of worms I was hoping would never be opened in UU.

Everyone will do good to leave time travel and clones alone for a while after this. Except maybe FF, I know that kind of stuff fits with that book more than UXM or USM.

Like Age of Apocolypse, I love that story, it might be my favorite X-Men story. But the ending is one of those things you just gotta take without thinking about, and that's something that all alternate timelines, and time travel are reduced to. Forget continuity, logic, and common sense and take it as is and wait until someone retcons it even more.

The thing against clones...Clone Saga is like a cuss word among Spidey fans. I admit Ultimate Clone Saga has been good, but I want it to be self contained and I fully know that Bendis will have the clones staying around for a long while.
 
*looks at everyone's response to USM 101*

Told ya. Clones and timetravel should stay out of UU. It just becomes a gimmick, it's in the nature of the subject.
 
*looks at everyone's response to USM 101*

Told ya. Clones and timetravel should stay out of UU. It just becomes a gimmick, it's in the nature of the subject.

Except, it's not. There's plenty of good time travel and clone stories out there.

The Clone Saga's failure to be cool is a result of Bendis having a limp dick, not because of it having clones.

I think the problem with the Age of Apocalypse story is a core problem that Marvel suffers from. It was a very cool idea, and as a standalone story, it was enjoyable as hell. But they saw the need to weave it back into the 616 Universe. It should have remained as an imaginary story.
 
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First of all, a summary of my personal beliefs about the series:

* the maxi-series format is cool with me, as long as it ships on time.

* Loeb's intention to make it read like a more traditional hero-oriented book is not necessarily at odds with the need to make it feel 'Ultimate'; it just demands more creative thinking, with regards to how the stories play out. Actually, Justice League Unlimited is a great model for this approach, balancing more 'adult/mature' ethical and moral themes with classic superhero action.

Given the chance to write Ultimates 3, I'd structure it this way:


"Disassembled" (#1)

Six months after Ultimates 2 ends. The series would open in the midst of a mission. The current line-up of the Ultimates are raiding the headquarters of Fenris International (from UXM's "Cry Wolf" arc), which has since relocated from New York City to Austin, Texas. No explanation is given to readers for the attack, other than that the group is a front organization for funding mutant terrorist activities in the U.S.

The Ultimates roster seen in the battle is Cap, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, and Quicksilver. Meanwhile, (the original, female) Vision is coordinating the group's activities, from a mobile command center aboard a SHIELD helicarrier. While the others fight off the "Wolf Pack" guards, Cap succeeds at battling his way into the main offices where Andrea and Andreas von Strucker are hiding out. Before the Struckers can make skin contact and use their powers, Wasp flies out of a chamber in Cap's backpack, suprising Andrea with her sting. Cap and Wasp quickly take out the Struckers.

The next few scenes are on board the SHIELD helicarrier above New York. The city is obviously in the process of rebuilding (including a restored Triskelion).

By way of a debriefing and situation report, it is established that Iron Man has grown distrustful of Nick Fury and SHIELD, and Stark has ended all contracts with them. They are now monitoring his actions closely, but they have no doubt some of his work has slipped under their radars, given the extent of his resources.

It is implied that Fury let Bruce Banner go, and he remains a fugitive on the run from other authorities. Fury may or may not know where to locate Banner, if needed.

Hank Pym is missing in action, but SHIELD has seized whatever known assets he has, including the ant-control helmet and apparatus, as well as the schematics for Ultron and Vision II.

Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch admit (however begrudgingly) that they seem to have found 'their place' among the Ultimates, no matter how unlikely, given the respect with which they are now treated, after their involvement in the Battle for America. More crucially, they need the diplomatic immunity conferred onto them, to avoid facing up to their past as mutant terrorists, hence their decision to remain with the group. Furthermore, Wanda seems to have developed an unlikely (more than platonic?) relationship with the female Vision; she seems to have established the same degree of intimacy with the robot that she once had with Pietro.

Cap remains loyal but criticial, serving as a voice of reason, despite any misgivings he may have about the way SHIELD runs the group.

And Wasp loves the fame too much to risk a career move, at this point. Her relationship with Cap remains dedicated, in spite of past squabbles.

Hawkeye is a devout career man, and will not so quickly abandon his old pal, Fury.

Thor has decided to pursue his own individual interests, seperate from the group that he doubted, from the very beginning.

In the last scene of the first issue, we see Tony Stark presiding over a meeting at the Stark Enterprises Compound in Los Angeles. Despite the sinister mood of the scene, Tony himself appears to be in high spirits, and declares that "the big day" happens the following week.



"Force Works", "West Coast", "New", "The Crossing" (first arc, lasting through #S 2 - 5)

Tony Stark unveils Force Works, a team of superpowered individuals, organized right under SHIELD's nose. They will operate under the auspices of Stark Enterprises (similar to WildC.A.T.S. v. 3.0). The line-up includes Iron Man, Mahr Vell (from the Ultimate Galactus storylines), Misty Knight, Hawk-Owl (from Ultimate Adventures), Doctor Strange (from USM), and Psylocke (from the "World Tour" storyline in UXM; she joins Stark because her "S.T.R.I.K.E. project was absorbed into the European Defense Initiative" by her "******* brother"). Their physical appearance (uniforms, colors, etc.) deliberately suggests a resemblance to the original Authority (Psylocke = Jenny Sparks, Dr. Strange = The Doctor, Mahr Vell = Apollo, Hawk-Owl = Midnighter, etc.)

They were able to organize themselves without SHIELD's knowledge, by operating in a pocket dimension accessed by Strange.

Force Works stops an attack by the U-Foes in Hawaii (never explicitly named as such, but it's obvious).

Fury meets with the Ultimates to decide how to respond to this latest challenge; Betty Ross' involvement is key; the Ultimates need to "rebrand" themselves.

Basically, Force Works and the Ultimates compete for favorable public opinion, which means that Fury can no longer use his group for questionable black-ops style work.

He brings in a new undercover agent: Ronin. Ronin is later revealed to be Hank Pym, whom Fury has spared, in exchange for his services.



"Young Ultimates" (stand-alone story in #6)

A Fury solo story. Fury is alarmed to learn about a travelling group of young vigilantes in the MidWest/Great Lakes area, calling themselves the "Young Ultimates". He dispatches SHIELD Agent Sharon Carter to learn more about them.

She discovers that three of them have no real superpowers. Night Thrasher is just a fanboy with military surplus grade battle armor and a souped-up Segway. Speedball is an extremely talented gymnast and martial artist, with an incurable addiction to danger. And Namorita is an amateur Atlantis scholar with a set of glorified, arm-mounted water cannons that shoot propulsive blasts of dirty water.

However, Firestar is a genuinely powerful pyrokinetic mutant. Carter agrees to let SHIELD turn a blind eye to their activities, as long as they cease and desist immediately, and Firestar/Angelica Jones agrees to be trained as a black-ops agent for the real Ultimates.



"Hydra" (final arc, lasting through #s 7 - 12)

Fury learns that Fenris were just an influential pro-mutant break-away oragnization from a more dangerous threat: HYDRA.

HYDRA manipulates the individual members of the Ultimates and Force Works to compete for pieces of glorified doomsday device, in a storyline that reads like an Ultimized version of the "Avengers-Defenders War". Eventually, Tony figures out what's going on, and the groups coordinate a strike against HYDRA using both conventional superheroics and corporate manipulation (to cut off its funding, so that it can't organize the various command cells that serve as its many heads).
 
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The most natural way to end Ultimates 2 is for the group to split from S.H.I.E.L.D. Too much has taken place for them to kiss and make up with the govt. now and they have the clout and resources to operate independently as the Avengers.

However, there is no way S.H.I.E.L.D. can drop the Ultimates concept at this point. While the book went to great lengths to show the pitfalls associated with govt. sponsored 'persons of mass destruction,' -- that genie is out of the bottle.

While forming the Ultimates in the first place may have arguably been a mistake, the Liberators' invasion proved to the U.S. govt and S.H.I.E.L.D that their enemies a) now have the ability to raise and deploy superhuman forces, and b) the motivation to actually use them. Ultimately only the USA's superhumans were capable of fending off the assault.

To rid themselves of their superhuman soldiers now would leave the nation incredibly vulnerable and basically invite future attacks.

So, while the core of the former Ultimates (Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Hulk, Wasp, etc.) leave to form the independent superhuman group known as 'The Avengers', Nick Fury would be tasked with forming a new core group of 'Ultimates.'

This team would ideally be even more powerful than the old Ultimates, but less idyllic than the newly-formed Avengers -- more soldiers in Fury's super-army than straight-up heroes.

Who could make up such a team?

How about a new frontman who may just be the most powerful force to ever grace the UU?: Hyperion.

Of course Betty Ross would point out that the codename 'Hyperion' didn't test well so they'd give him a new version of his uniform with a 'W' instead of an 'H' and inform him (to his chagrin) that they're planning on referring to him as 'Wonderman' from now on.

Also:
---Doctor Spectrum
---Nighthawk: Ross would inform him that the 'codename' Nighthawk is already copyrighted and anyway, it's attributed to a loser wannabe hero. So they'd slightly revamp his uniform (mainly losing the beak off his mask) and redub him 'Black Panther'.
---War Machine: An advanced armor based on technology gleaned from reverse engineering the early Iron Tech designs S.H.I.E.L.D. obtained from Stark (the Rocketmen) that also sports upgrades suggested by Captain Marvel and Reed Richards. I'm thinking a black and grey version that looks similar to Iron Man's Ultimates/Ultimates 2 armor as Tony moves on to the newer Joe Mad-designed armor.
--Captain Marvel
--Falcon
--Hawkeye (I see him as closer to Fury than Cap, Iron Man, Thor, etc.)
--What's left of the Reserves
--Whoever else you want to throw in there.

The Ultimates and the Avengers would typically work towards the same basic goals, although with differing methods and motivations, but there would still be plenty of room for conflict between the two groups.

This would give Loeb & Mad the room to tell their Avenger-inspired superhero tales while keeping the grittier, more political side of the Ultimates alive in the UU as well.

Disclaimer:

Okay, I know this idea isn't really feasible (and unless Marvel decides to ditch the Squadron Supreme series, it never will be) and I know a lot of people would absolutely hate it, but I just wanted to throw these ideas out there. But even without the use of the Supremeverse characters, I still think the UU USA govt. will need to form a new superhuman team once the current members split (and I think they will).
 
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