Who makes for a better nemesis for Cap, Kleiser or the Red Skull?

The Overlord

Well-Known Member
Who makes for a better nemesis for Cap, Kleiser or the Red Skull?

If this thread belongs elsewhere, could the mods please movie it.
 

ourchair

Well-Known Member
I assume this is in reaction to the Cap movie thread.

I vote Red Skull.

But of course, it'd depend on the story.
 

The Overlord

Well-Known Member
Well, is this for Ultimate Cap or 616 Cap?

I kinda meant in general, since 616 Cap hasn't met Kleiser and Ultimate Cap hasn't met the Skull, it would be hard to gauge if Skull is better villain for Ultimate cap if he doesn't exist in the Ultimate Universe.

Which one is the better villain and which one makes for a better contrast to Cap?
 

SSJmole

Face-Punching As Foreign Policy
Red Skull all the way

I kinda meant in general, since 616 Cap hasn't met Kleiser and Ultimate Cap hasn't met the Skull, it would be hard to gauge if Skull is better villain for Ultimate cap if he doesn't exist in the Ultimate Universe.

Wait there is no red skull in Ultimate universe? That's retarded IMO.
 
Last edited:

Ultimate Houde

UC's Resident Genetic Recombinator
Well, I would have to say Skull, just cause of the sheer amount of history those two hav had.

Kleiser had one reason to hate the Cap, and it was cause of what he represented, while 616 cap hates what Red Skull represented.

I think that may make sense

Red SKull
 

ourchair

Well-Known Member
Red Skull all the way



Wait there is no red skull in Ultimate universe? That's retarded IMO.
I think there were some behind the scenes material where it was implied that Kleiser is Ultimate Red Skull, or that he was at one point, Red Skull-like but then revised to the point of NOT being Red Skull. Basically behind the scenes non-canonical blah blah.

But yeah, there is no Ultimate Red Skull.

I can't wait for Jeph Loeb to mess him up so bad.

Unless Orson Scott Card finds a way to insert him into Ultimate Iron Man.
 

The Overlord

Well-Known Member
Red Skull all the way



Wait there is no red skull in Ultimate universe? That's retarded IMO.

The poblem is the Red Skull would really redundant in the Ultimate Universe, Kleiser has already been established as Cap's WWII nemesis and the threat from the past. What role would the Red skull serve in the UU? Some guy with a Skull mask who robs bank and gets beat up in one panel?

In the 616 universe, the Red Skull is the most evil human being in the world, that's his whole thing. If he isn't Cap's WWII nemesis how would that work in the UU?
 

Random

Didn't **** any of those *****es
The poblem is the Red Skull would really redundant in the Ultimate Universe, Kleiser has already been established as Cap's WWII nemesis and the threat from the past. What role would the Red skull serve in the UU?
I recall hearing Millar saying if he was continuing on the Ultimates either Red Skull or Dr Doom would be the next villain
Some guy with a Skull mask who robs bank and gets beat up in one panel?
****ing Bendis
In the 616 universe, the Red Skull is the most evil human being in the world, that's his whole thing. If he isn't Cap's WWII nemesis how would that work in the UU?

There's many directions they could take with Ultimate Red Skull.
 

ProjectX2

Don't expect me to take you with me when I go to s
The Red Skull is Captain America's main enemy. Kleiser has been in one story. A good story it may have been, but there's no way the two can even compare.
 

DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
The Red Skull is Captain America's main enemy. Kleiser has been in one story. A good story it may have been, but there's no way the two can even compare.

Perfectly summed up.

Its like asking who's a better Spidey villain, Green Goblin or Geldoff (except Kleiser was in a really good story, Geldoff's was a ****ing joke).
 

The Overlord

Well-Known Member
I recall hearing Millar saying if he was continuing on the Ultimates either Red Skull or Dr Doom would be the next villain
****ing Bendis


There's many directions they could take with Ultimate Red Skull.

I don't know. The Skull is so evil in the 616 universe, its hard for me to see him as something else. Its like having non pure evil of Joker or Green Goblin, Ultimate Gobby may have different powers, but the fundamanmental personality is the same.

How would Ultimate Red Skull work in the UU at this point. I rather wouldn't they make him sympathetic or something.
 

DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
How about a misguided Russian soldier who's reason for being is to revive Communist Russia (not so out of left field given recent political developments over there). We've already got the Nazi in Kleiser. Hell, the Communist thing could apply to a Chinese National as well.
 

The Overlord

Well-Known Member
How about a misguided Russian soldier who's reason for being is to revive Communist Russia (not so out of left field given recent political developments over there). We've already got the Nazi in Kleiser. Hell, the Communist thing could apply to a Chinese National as well.

Eh, that reminds me of the lame communist Red Skull. Almost every communist villain is lame, they come off as about as interesting as Captain Planet villains, they come across one dimensional and boring. Why not just introduce Ultimate Red Ghost or something instead.

"I will get you, you exploitor of the working class!" God, after 91 most of those 616 coimmunist villains became politically irrelevant. seriously communism is dead, the chinese are communist in name only, you can't have Nike factors and still be a coimmunist.

Besides didn't Cap just fight a bunch of commie super soliders in the last Ultimates arc. That seems redundant.

Nazis are just cooler than Communists, in general. Nazis are way better dressers than commuunists and frankly Nazis talking about how they think Jews are an inferior race is way scarier than some communist droning about the "means of production". Its hard to make really cool Communist villain.
 
Last edited:

DIrishB

The Timeline Guy
Eh, that reminds me of the lame communist Red Skull. Almost every communist villain is lame, they come off as about as interesting as Captain Planet villains, they come across one dimensional and boring. Why not just introduce Ultimate Red Ghost or something instead.

Since when was Red Skull a Communist? He's a Nazi, not a Commie. Two separate ideologies.

"I will get you, you exploitor of the working class!" God, after 91 most of those 616 coimmunist villains became politically irrelevant. seriously communism is dead, the chinese are communist in name only, you can't have Nike factors and still be a coimmunist.

I could argue that all day long. As for the characters portrayal, its all up to the writer. A competent writer can make anything interesting, and that idea isn't so beyond belief in my opinion. As for Communism being "dead", as you put it, thats why I said a character trying to revive that particular movement. And if you'd read a newspaper lately, you'd see Socialist and Communist political movements are gaining a lot of power and following in Russia and surrounding nations. As for China, its Communist in more than name. Granted, it has American factories/companies there, but this doesn't take away from the fact its a Communist nation.

Besides didn't Cap just fight a bunch of commie super soliders in the last Ultimates arc. That seems redundant.

Um, no. He fought a bunch of anti-American supers. Anti-American does not equal Communist.
 

The Overlord

Well-Known Member
Since when was Red Skull a Communist? He's a Nazi, not a Commie. Two separate ideologies. .

Red Skull III, Albert Malik, was a communist and he was lame in my opinion.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/rskul2.htm

I could argue that all day long. As for the characters portrayal, its all up to the writer. A competent writer can make anything interesting, and that idea isn't so beyond belief in my opinion. As for Communism being "dead", as you put it, thats why I said a character trying to revive that particular movement. And if you'd read a newspaper lately, you'd see Socialist and Communist political movements are gaining a lot of power and following in Russia and surrounding nations. As for China, its Communist in more than name. Granted, it has American factories/companies there, but this doesn't take away from the fact its a Communist nation..

Russia is just becomming as generic police state, not a communist state. Putin is a nationalist and is establisinhing a nationalist government, he has no interest in a international workers movement. An ultra nationalist trying take over Russia would be more politically relevant.

Name one interesting communist villain in all of comic books, ever. They are almost always lame political sterotypes, about as deep as a Captain Planet villain.

Also I have read the Communist manfesto and child labor is strickly forbidden in purposed prole dictatorship. The Chinese are about as Communist as a Christian who who doesn't think Jesus is the son of God. There are rules to being a communist,sif you don;t follow them, you are not a communist.


Um, no. He fought a bunch of anti-American supers. Anti-American does not equal Communist.

Considering one was from north Korea and they had red fists as their logo, I think a few commies were on the team.

Besides Cap already fought a bunch of commies in Ultimate Nightmare.
 

Latest posts

Top