Women in comics

[Zombipanda]

I think its sick to objectify teen characters-that's the point I was trying to make.

Who's the one doing the objectifying? When most people see a teenage video game character kicking high and getting her panties exposed, they don't get excited. It's the same reason when people see this

they don't consider it exploitation. It's an adorable baby. Neither the person who took the picture or the majority of people who see it consider it to be objectification. Your logic seems to be that, since the character makes you think naughty thoughts, it's inherently bad. But in a lot of these situations, the intent isn't to sexually excite the audience. You're the one doing the objectifying, because you're the one that sees the character as an object, which causes you to respond with excitement. Most people see a character, and any panty shots, or whatever, are merely a harmless side effect of whatever innocent action she's performing.

I like Chinese women, but I wouldn't consider Chun-Li a sex symbol. I know Sakura is Japanese.
Yes, I played the games.

If you admit that you like a certain group of girls based on their race, isn't that objectification? You're making a judgment based on cultural or racial criteria that might or might not be indicative of their true self. When you boil down your assessment of anyone (whether it be "I like Chinese girls" or "I don't like lesbians") on broad criteria like that, they become an object defined by these criteria, rather than a human being. It's the same 2-dimensional objectification we've been talking about all along, but inverted. At least the dudes who draw Power Girl with killer breasts aren't being hypocritical about it.

Why would anyone make a statue of an upskirt?

I don't know. Let's petition that all female characters of all ages, in every entertainment medium needs to wear a burqa and full Muslim garb from now on.

It's funny-I was elsewhere arguing that Chun Li was sl***y.

hm... What leads you to believe that Chun-Li gets penetrated so much?



Back to the topic, I've got a couple hypotheticals for all you guys.

1. Let's look at "cheesecake" fantasy genre. Specifically, let's talk about busty, scantily clad fantasy characters, a la Red Sonja, or Burroughs-esque, busty, scantily clad jungle characters. I haven't read much of these, which is why I'm going to go with the hypothetical here. So, hypothetically, we have a situation where the character's costume is a natural extension of their environment. Frank Cho-style costume designs make sense (or at least more sense) in an environment like this. So, we have a jungle queen who wears next to nothing. Yet, she's a powerful warrior and hunter, an intelligent leader, compassionate, and in general a well-rounded and admirable character. Can she be a respectable role model, or do the tropes of the genre prevent her from being a strong female character?

2. I'm working on a submission for a little soon-to-be publishing company that wants a "Sailor Moon + Heavy Metal" type pitch, and I'm having trouble with it - partly because it's hard working with an all-female cast, partly because I've never seen Sailor Moon - and I've eventually settled on a story that plays with Chinese mythology and plays with the "all-girl ***-kickers" theme by working the conceit that there's an innate mysticism in females that's not in men (and it's a mythological aspect that's all over the place). The question is, does this sort of genre convention hurt or help the place of women in comics?

Finally, I'm surprised no one's brought up Tulip from Preacher. I think she's easily one of the most well-rounded and sympathetic female characters in comics. Tulip rocks.

 

[Joe Kalicki]

Doc's right.

Moving on, I know it's always the Legion this and the Legion that with me, but the post-Zero Hour Legion, the one prior to this current version, had a majority female membership. Their last leader, Kid Quantum 2, was a female. A black female at that. The book ruled a lot.

 

[Bass]

Why do some artists think or feel that a character has to have sex appeal in order to get noticed-that's something that turns me away from a lot of comics.

Sex sells. Simple as that.

I think it's good that they have strong female characters and that they're breaking away from the "damsel in distress" image and stereotype.

I completely agree. It's something that's been happening steadily and definately, I think, due to the horror movie.

The horror movie has really become a film for female audiences. The main character is always a woman, and she's a victim of some terrifyingly powerful evil, and in the end, has to defeat it. It's a very empowering genre when you think about it, and it's extremely popular.

So it makes sense that if in horror women begin as victims and end up as a hero (like Alien, The Terminator for example) then when we get into comics and these women can throw tanks around, it makes sense they'd be more assertive and heroic.

That plus women's lib with women wanting to be independent and assertive, it means that we have more women involved in the production of comics and less of them want to be seen as a damsel in distress.

And sometimes it doesn't matter that the heroic woman is unfeasibly hot. I got dragged to the Tomb Raider film by a girl. I didn't want to see it, she did.

The way I see it, in comics, there are currently two trends to this situation. One is to stupidly sexually objectify men. This is them going, "hey, we're equal opportunity sleaze artists now!" My thinking is, if you're doing something wrong by demeaning women by sexually objectifying them, making men sexually objectified doesn't make it okay. Two wrongs don't make a right. It's the easy, slack solution.

The other is to go, "well, look, sexy women sell more than circus ugly heffers. But if we make her sexy, let's also make her a really good character". This is something Adam Hughes and Adam Warren do in spades. Check out how they treat the Caitlin Fairchild character from Gen13 compared to the other writers of the comic. By the same token, Warren Ellis does this a lot - Jenny Sparks and Jakita Wagner are great examples. J Michael Straczynski is also a fan of stronger, more challenging women. Adam Warren's Empowered is a great example of this (it also satirises this entire debate, though, Mavericker, I think you wouldn't enjoy it), as should be Adam Hughes' All-Star Wonder Woman.

Personally, I think the latter is wonderful. I'm all for not every superhero being gorgeous, but I think making them not perfect just because you think it might be offensive to some is like making sure one character in the team is black - or a woman. I just love it when a character not only looks great, but is great.

 

[Jaggyd]

Sex sells. Simple as that.



I completely agree. It's something that's been happening steadily and definately, I think, due to the horror movie.

The horror movie has really become a film for female audiences. The main character is always a woman, and she's a victim of some terrifyingly powerful evil, and in the end, has to defeat it. It's a very empowering genre when you think about it, and it's extremely popular.

So it makes sense that if in horror women begin as victims and end up as a hero (like Alien, The Terminator for example) then when we get into comics and these women can throw tanks around, it makes sense they'd be more assertive and heroic.

That plus women's lib with women wanting to be independent and assertive, it means that we have more women involved in the production of comics and less of them want to be seen as a damsel in distress.

And sometimes it doesn't matter that the heroic woman is unfeasibly hot. I got dragged to the Tomb Raider film by a girl. I didn't want to see it, she did.

The way I see it, in comics, there are currently two trends to this situation. One is to stupidly sexually objectify men. This is them going, "hey, we're equal opportunity sleaze artists now!" My thinking is, if you're doing something wrong by demeaning women by sexually objectifying them, making men sexually objectified doesn't make it okay. Two wrongs don't make a right. It's the easy, slack solution.

The other is to go, "well, look, sexy women sell more than circus ugly heffers. But if we make her sexy, let's also make her a really good character". This is something Adam Hughes and Adam Warren do in spades. Check out how they treat the Caitlin Fairchild character from Gen13 compared to the other writers of the comic. By the same token, Warren Ellis does this a lot - Jenny Sparks and Jakita Wagner are great examples. J Michael Straczynski is also a fan of stronger, more challenging women. Adam Warren's Empowered is a great example of this (it also satirises this entire debate, though, Mavericker, I think you wouldn't enjoy it), as should be Adam Hughes' All-Star Wonder Woman.

Personally, I think the latter is wonderful. I'm all for not every superhero being gorgeous, but I think making them not perfect just because you think it might be offensive to some is like making sure one character in the team is black - or a woman. I just love it when a character not only looks great, but is great.

Bass...seriously, you are my hero.

You, in this single post did better at expressing what I wanted to say in my half dozen or so posts.

 

[Bass]

Why, thank ya very much. There's a reason I'm the Nexus of the World, y'know. :wink:

 

[Zombipanda]

Why, thank ya very much. There's a reason I'm the Nexus of the World, y'know. :wink:

because I've been too busy to usurp you?

 

[compound]

I think my head will explode if I hear the word tomboy again.

I'm honestly curious -- does 'tomboy' have a different meaning in Brazil?

Because in the Philippines, non-Anglophone Filipinos (i.e. those raised to speak Tagalog, Bisaya, or one of the various regional tongues) use the word 'tomboy' synonymously with 'butch lesbian'. It's just one of those words that takes on a different (but somewhat related) connotation from its original meaning, when transplanted into a different culture/language.

*flashes Wade since he's not getting any*

*stealthily snaps a phone-cam picture, ninja-style*

I think girls and women wearing form-fitting costumes and showing off their legs is kind of pervy.

*sigh*

I think you've made this point several times now. We all understand you. And none of us agree completely.

Now, I'm appealing your Christian sense of compassion and understanding -- please, just agree to disagree already, so we can move on with the discussion.

The rest of us agree on a fundamental level (i.e. objectification of women in comics is bad; but at the same time, there's nothing wrong with characters who are assertive about their sexuality, as long as it's written in an interesting way.)

But even then, there's still a lot to discuss. And we can't do that, if you keep bringing the argument back to basics.

We're not discouraging you from taking part in the thread, but if you do, quit repeating what you've already stated, plenty of time before.

What's wrong with smart females?

Absolutely nothing. But what's wrong with smart females, who choose to be assertive about their sexuality, as well? Nobody like to be defined primarily by a single characteristic, whether or not it's their intellect OR their libido.

Moving on...

 

[Ultimate Quicksilver]

I'm honestly curious -- does 'tomboy' have a different meaning in Brazil?

Because in the Philippines, non-Anglophone Filipinos (i.e. those raised to speak Tagalog, Bisaya, or one of the various regional tongues) use the word 'tomboy' synonymously with 'butch lesbian'. It's just one of those words that takes on a different (but somewhat related) connotation from its original meaning, when transplanted into a different culture/language.

The word tomboy in portuguese is not used anymore, I hear old people saying it but is rare. The world didn't have homossexual connotation.
There is another world however that is now used in substitution. This new world does have sexual connotations and is pretty harsh too.

But I don't want to hear anymore because it's being overused, it's really boring me.

 

[Jaggyd]

Y'know, I wonder if Mavericker can hear us up on that high horse he's on.


Back on topic, I really like how they redesigned Kate Kane's costume. The Batwoman Beyond look is a FAR sight better than that yellow monstrosity she wore in the Silver Age.

I'm currently trying to get the Batwoman costume together for Mid-Ohio, I'll try to get photos, but I won't show them here, cus latex tends to show off too much, and I don't want to offend people's sensibilities.

 

[Seldes Katne]

I've unlocked this thread and removed a bunch of posts (particularly at the end of the discussions, where things were really moving downhill fast...). If the conversation in a few places stems from posts that were removed, I apologize for any confusion that arises.

Although a lot of the discussion posts surrounding the Street Fighter video game have been removed, Skotti's picture of Chun Li has been moved to her creative thread in the Fanfiction and Art Forum, since it was perfectly good art and I hated to see it lost.

Now that we've reopened, please do your best to stay on topic. This is the place to discuss the depiction and character development of women in comics. I realize that a lot of comics spill out into movies, video games, etc., but the comic version of the characters should at least play a part in the discussion. This is not the place to comment on which comic "chick" you find "hot", or air your views on your love life (or lack thereof). Take a look at your post before you hit the "submit reply" button -- if the message doesn't further the discussion or answer a question already asked, or have any real bearing on the thread topic, don't post it.

As with the discussions of homosexuality in comics and religion in general, a little sensitivity goes a long way. Not surprisingly, this is a topic that's near and dear to my heart, so I'll be keeping a close eye on the discussion, even if I'm not adding anything.

Have fun. Play nice. :wink:

 

[E]

Thank you Seldes. I had given up on this one.

 

[Seldes Katne]

I think this topic still has a lot of potential.

By the way, the Bingo Card TwilightEL mentioned in the first post can be found by clicking on the above link. Clicking any of the squares on the card will get you a forwarding message to the new location.

Some of the arguments are highly amusing....

 

[SSJmole]

I think this topic still has a lot of potential.

By the way, the Bingo Card TwilightEL mentioned in the first post can be found by clicking on the above link. Clicking any of the squares on the card will get you a forwarding message to the new location.

Some of the arguments are highly amusing....

not clicked all of them but the ones i did it was pretty funny.

My favourite even if I have used it before in this thread (I think) was "But men are drawn unrealistically too!" :lol:

 

[McCheese]

Ok so I followed Seldes' link and found another link to a feminist board where there were several complaints about the cover of the Batgirl Showcase going from this:

To this:

So the feminists seemed somewhat less than happy and someone came up with this.

Thought it was funny, so I brought it here.

 

[TwilightEL]

What do you guys think about women in refrigerators?

A better definition can be found in many places on the web, including Wikipedia or by googling it in quotes, but WiR basically means when a woman is killed, raped or traumatized for no reason other than to facilitate a male character's growth. Lots of times, the effect on the woman herself and her development is ignored in favor of the man's angst.

I think supporting characters lots of times do suffer for the sake of the hero's development. This happens to males and females. However, if the growth of the supporting character is completely ignored, that's just sloppy writing.

As with a lot of gender-related issues, I think it's hard to tell what's sexism and what's just bad writing. What do you guys think? Any examples of WiR you'd like to discuss?

 

[E]

As with a lot of gender-related issues, I think it's hard to tell what's sexism and what's just bad writing.

Usually the two go hand in hand.

 

[ourchair]

Usually the two go hand in hand.

I am inclined to believe that writers who have made "sexist" storytelling decisions are not necessarily sexists though.

Similarly, not all writers who have made "sexist" storytelling decisions are not necessarily bad writers. There is after all, such a thing as a talented misogynist.

 

[TwilightEL]

I am inclined to believe that writers who have made "sexist" storytelling decisions are not necessarily sexists though.

Similarly, not all writers who have made "sexist" storytelling decisions are not necessarily bad writers. There is after all, such a thing as a talented misogynist.

Do you think Frank Miller falls into this category?

I've heard a lot of people accusing him of sexism. Plus, people have been pointing out how in 300, the pure, repressed, baby-killing Caucasians are the heroes but the inclusive, multiracial group that accepts people with handicaps is the perverted villain.

 

[Iceshadow]

I found a review of Shanna the She-Devil: Survival of the Fittest #1, where the guy brings up a few good points.

...As for the art, it's certainly better than some books of this ilk. The story is told competently. The pacing's okay. Evans draws some good monsters. And Shanna... well, she's ridiculously overendowed, and for some reason, in most panels, she has the expression of somebody who's either bored or sedated.

Why do books like this get published? From the way they're promoted and talked about, you'd think there was a big demand for this sort of art. But as far as I can see, the sales figures don't really bear that out. Is Frank Cho's work on Mighty Avengers outselling Leinil Francis Yu's on New Avengers? Er, no. Did the last Shanna miniseries sell especially well? Not really. What about Khari Evans' Daughters of the Dragon miniseries, or the T&A-tastic Heroes for Hire? Again, not really. This confuses me. It seems to be taken as read across the board that this stuff sells. Well, where are these high-selling T&A books, then?

And even if they sold in comic book form, Marvel's business these days is heavily based on character licensing. How are you going to licence this? Most other media wouldn't even touch this sort of thing with a ten-foot bargepole - it's exactly the sort of thing people expect to see at comic conventions, clutched in the sweaty paws of obese stereotypes living in their parents' basements. Okay, Witchblade got licensed as a TV show, but for all its sins, that book actually had a premise. This is just a vehicle for T&A. And in the grand scheme of respectability, the T&A comic ranks somewhere below the straight-to-DVD erotic thriller. You're not going to get a movie out of this. You're not even going to get a theme park ride. Try pitching this as a kids' cartoon. (Shanna the She-Devil and her Amazing Friends?)

Is it the love of art? Seriously, now. I'm sure there's a minority who really like this stuff - there's a minority who like almost anything - but it's tough to make a case for the artistic heart and soul of a generic "people trapped on an island with monsters" story with a large-breasted, personality-free blonde added on. You can play the artistic merit card for something like Adam Warren's Empowered, which was a funny, tongue-in-cheek, self-aware sex comedy that made something out of its unlikely source material (a character Warren created for drawings privately commissioned by, ahem, specialist collectors). Empowered is a book that transcends its unlikely roots. Shanna is just a rather cynical exercise in formula - story plus **** equals dollars. But does it?

Whole review here.

 

[Ultimate Deadpool]

Can people post examples as to what they find sexist? Like "In one issue of the X-Men, Rogue opted no to go on a mission so she could clean the house and cook her boyfriend a meal before he got home from work."

I made that up, but you get the drift.