Spider-Man Are any of these new BND villains any good?

JMS Spidey > BND Spidey

I've just officially sent in the subscription payment that will let Amazing Spidey run out for the next few weeks and then no more for me. For the first time in 7 years I won't be subscribed to Spidey.

This is just ****. I don't see anything to forgive the bad writing, they even have good writers on the title, but its not working.
 
I've not read the new ones but was curious as to who that Menace was and saw this :





The glider + the insane laugh + the look of this overall costume = IMO he does look like some Mickey Mouse goblin. Me no like.



He looks more like a hunchback than a goblin.
 
Dr.Strangefate said:
New Villains simply for the sake of having new villains is never a good move.

None of these characters have anything in them that could possibly make them classic villains.
Bass said:
I disagree. I think creating an environment where all the old villains are properly shelved so new villains must be created is something they should've done in the second year of each of the ongoing Ultimate titles.

I LOVE the fact that there won't be any of Spidey's villains for a year.

I am, however, supremely disappointed in the villains we have.
The Overlord said:
You say its a good new direction to have new villains, but almost none of these villains are very interesting so what's the point.
But how can they be sure till they release them?

There might be some really exciting villains round the corner. Just because the first two out of the gate didn't work doesn't mean introducing new villains is a bad idea.

By that logic, the only Spider-villain in existence should be Chameleon. He worked in #1, surely then there's no point in creating more.

Just because these villains suck doesn't mean there's no point to creating them.
I agree with Bass.

The villains do in fact, suck right now, but to nay say the entire creative direction simply because the villains suck just gives me this mental image of kids in the 60s saying that the creative direction of Spider-Man kind of sucked simply because The Vulture and The Kingpin didn't succeed the first time out.

Not all villains can work the first bat out.

Does anybody remember how utterly boring The Sandman was until he decided to develop a conscience and how his first appearance was pretty much a low IQ wise-acre bank robber with a gimmick power? Or how Kraven's first appearance pretty much revolved around talking about what an awesome hunter he was, completely lacking in pathos and a relationship with Chameleon? Or how Mac Gargan was just a rotten P.I. going crazy from powers and saying "AAAAAAGGHHH! What you have done to my life?!?!?!"

Everyone was just a goon with a gimmick who LATER got some decent to excellent character development. To say that "none of these characters have anything in them that could possibly make them classic villains" is judging them a bit prematurely I think. Hell, the Green Goblin's only 'classic' aspect in his early years was the mystery that shrouded him and much later... the fact that he was Norman Osborn... and a little later... that he killed Gwen Stacy.

The point I'm making is that it's not just about the next batch of BND villains being better than these guys, but whether or not they CAN be developed by future writers and stories. Only time will tell if these villains are classic or if they can be made classic, and even if they don't pan out, well Spider-Man ALWAYS needs a few cannon fodder villains, if only to make the special villains even more special.
 
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No no, you're thinking of the Ultimate universe.



But how can they be sure till they release them?

There might be some really exciting villains round the corner. Just because the first two out of the gate didn't work doesn't mean introducing new villains is a bad idea.

By that logic, the only Spider-villain in existence should be Chameleon. He worked in #1, surely then there's no point in creating more.

Just because these villains suck doesn't mean there's no point to creating them.



It's not. Menace sucks. But the idea that inherently, bringing back an old crappy villain is better than inventing a new crappy villain doesn't work. If you're so happy to bring back the Hypno Hustler, bear this in mind: in 10 years someone will want to bring back the underused Menace. Will that be good?

The problem with your comparison is Chameleon was introduced the first issue, these guys are introduced after 40 years of issues. The problem here is Menace isn't just lame, he is a copycat of a concept that's already been done a million times before in Spider-Man, it would be like the first 10 issues of Spidey having nothing but Chameleon knock offs in them as villains.

The problem is a lot of these new villains don't seem new at all, they seem like rehashes of past concepts.

Also Shocker is not as lame as Hypno Hustler, his Ultimate counter part is a joke, but 616 Shocker is underrated as a villain. It would be easy to give him new stories to focus on, because he has history, but isn't over exposed like Gobby, that's better than yet another Goblin villain.
 
JMS Spidey > BND Spidey

I've just officially sent in the subscription payment that will let Amazing Spidey run out for the next few weeks and then no more for me. For the first time in 7 years I won't be subscribed to Spidey.

This is just ****. I don't see anything to forgive the bad writing, they even have good writers on the title, but its not working.

Really? Guggenheim's arc, I thought, was crap. Slott's, was very entertaining.

As for JMS... he did the Morlun arc. It was just downhill after that. He gave us the crappy New Avengers Spidey, Iron Man Spidey, Other Spidey, and OMD. Apart from Morlun and the occassional nice touch - I think his run was bobbins.

The problem with your comparison is Chameleon was introduced the first issue, these guys are introduced after 40 years of issues. The problem here is Menace isn't just lame, he is a copycat of a concept that's already been done a million times before in Spider-Man, it would be like the first 10 issues of Spidey having nothing but Chameleon knock offs in them as villains.

The point I was making was that your thinking that as long as there's a good villain in Spidey's past, he doesn't need new ones, is faulty as that kind of thinking means that once you've created Chameleon, you don't need any new villains ever.

Also Shocker is not as lame as Hypno Hustler, his Ultimate counter part is a joke, but 616 Shocker is underrated as a villain. It would be easy to give him new stories to focus on, because he has history, but isn't over exposed like Gobby, that's better than yet another Goblin villain.

Look - I'm not saying the Menace is better than the Shocker. I agree that there's more potential in the Shocker right now than there is in the Menace who is crappy. HOWEVER - I don't agree that they shouldn't make new villains. I think they should keep making new villains instead of relying on the old ones. To dismiss all new future villains as a waste of time because the Menace sucks is short-sighted.
 
Really? Guggenheim's arc, I thought, was crap. Slott's, was very entertaining.

As for JMS... he did the Morlun arc. It was just downhill after that. He gave us the crappy New Avengers Spidey, Iron Man Spidey, Other Spidey, and OMD. Apart from Morlun and the occassional nice touch - I think his run was bobbins.



The point I was making was that your thinking that as long as there's a good villain in Spidey's past, he doesn't need new ones, is faulty as that kind of thinking means that once you've created Chameleon, you don't need any new villains ever.



Look - I'm not saying the Menace is better than the Shocker. I agree that there's more potential in the Shocker right now than there is in the Menace who is crappy. HOWEVER - I don't agree that they shouldn't make new villains. I think they should keep making new villains instead of relying on the old ones. To dismiss all new future villains as a waste of time because the Menace sucks is short-sighted.

The problem I have isn't with them making new villains, its the fact that most of them are generic and boring and that they but a ban on the old Spidey villains for 6 months in the process.

Geoff Johns revamped Flash's rogues gallery by both introducing new villains and revamping some of the old ones at the same time, if Slott had done, I wouldn't have had a problem. But by putting a ban on all the old villains (instead of just a select few like Ock, Venom and Gobby) it makes this run more unappealing than need be.

I think Brubaker's take a C-lister like Mr. fear shows that often there are no bad villains, only bad writers.
 
Geoff Johns revamped Flash's rogues gallery by both introducing new villains and revamping some of the old ones at the same time, if Slott had done, I wouldn't have had a problem. But by putting a ban on all the old villains (instead of just a select few like Ock, Venom and Gobby) it makes this run more unappealing than need be.

I think Brubaker's take a C-lister like Mr. fear shows that often there are no bad villains, only bad writers.

That's fair. I agree with you on both points.
 
The problem with your comparison is Chameleon was introduced the first issue, these guys are introduced after 40 years of issues. The problem here is Menace isn't just lame, he is a copycat of a concept that's already been done a million times before in Spider-Man, it would be like the first 10 issues of Spidey having nothing but Chameleon knock offs in them as villains.

The problem is a lot of these new villains don't seem new at all, they seem like rehashes of past concepts.

Also Shocker is not as lame as Hypno Hustler, his Ultimate counter part is a joke, but 616 Shocker is underrated as a villain. It would be easy to give him new stories to focus on, because he has history, but isn't over exposed like Gobby, that's better than yet another Goblin villain.


616 shocker hasn't been a threat in years. The Hood kicked his but in his first outing.


anyway, i agree with ouchair most villains aren't '' classic'' from the get go .

Saying they can't be classic is jumping to a baseless conclusion.
 
616 shocker hasn't been a threat in years. The Hood kicked his but in his first outing.


anyway, i agree with ouchair most villains aren't '' classic'' from the get go .

Saying they can't be classic is jumping to a baseless conclusion.

Yeah, but who's fault is that, the character or the writers?

Mr. Fear wasn't a threat for years (look at how quickly he got beaten in Breakout) but he is a big threat in the latest DD issues. Why is Shocker any different?
 
As for JMS... he did the Morlun arc. It was just downhill after that. He gave us the crappy New Avengers Spidey, Iron Man Spidey, Other Spidey, and OMD. Apart from Morlun and the occassional nice touch - I think his run was bobbins.

He also gave us accelerated growth Gwen babies, which was awesome and, even if you don't agree that it was awesome, took major balls to even suggest, much less do.

I thought Iron Spidey was an editorial mandate. I don't think anyone could have saved that stinker.

I really liked the New Avengers arc.

I liked OMD as well (the execution, not the idea) - I thought you liked it...?
 
Yeah, but who's fault is that, the character or the writers?

Mr. Fear wasn't a threat for years (look at how quickly he got beaten in Breakout) but he is a big threat in the latest DD issues. Why is Shocker any different?


Other than the fact that shocker is a henchmen type villain?

He's usually hired by someone....and that's always been his M.O.
Mr.fear becoming a mob boss isn't that much of a streach.....btw there is more than one Mr.Fear.


And hey what you say about Mr.Fear can also work with the new villains.
 
Other than the fact that shocker is a henchmen type villain?

He's usually hired by someone....and that's always been his M.O.
Mr.fear becoming a mob boss isn't that much of a streach.....btw there is more than one Mr.Fear.


And hey what you say about Mr.Fear can also work with the new villains.

Shocker is not only a henchman villain, he can be, but once and while he tries to rob banks or something on his own. he has done things besides take orders. You could argue Bullseye is just a henchman villain, is he not a threat? Its easy to write him as own character, he is a thrill seeker professional criminal who is only interested in money and kicks, not power, revenge or blood shed. He can even have other C-list villains join him in a gang and take Spidey on using superior team work. There that's easy.

That's more interesting than another mysterious Goblin style villain, which is what menace is, if he is a gilder and uses Halloween style gimmicks and looks like a goblin (which he does) he is a Goblin style villain. Heck Jack O'Lantern was more or less a poor man's goblin as well and this guy is worse. How is he supposed to be interesting when he is such a knock off.
 
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616 shocker hasn't been a threat in years. The Hood kicked his but in his first outing.

Oh please, Bendis just used the Shocker as fodder to make The Hood seem like a badass

It's like when Moon Knight beat Taskmaster, or like when you have a new cosmic character youalways have them job The Gladiator to make them seem cool (Vulcan)
 
He also gave us accelerated growth Gwen babies, which was awesome and, even if you don't agree that it was awesome, took major balls to even suggest, much less do.

True.

I really liked the New Avengers arc.

I think it was awful.

I liked OMD as well (the execution, not the idea) - I thought you liked it...?

I liked the idea; that is, I like the idea that Spidey has to pick between MJ and Aunt May. I like the Faustian deal. And I think it's one of the only retcons to have any heart or drama to it.

I think it was a dull read, though.
 
Oh please, Bendis just used the Shocker as fodder to make The Hood seem like a badass

)

It was Brian K. Vaughan who had him beat Shocker not BMB ya ninny.

Little quick to bash bendis huh?


Note: i meant ninny in the most respectfull way.8)
 
Shocker is not only a henchman villain, he can be, but once and while he tries to rob banks or something on his own. he has done things besides take orders. You could argue Bullseye is just a henchman villain, is he not a threat? Its easy to write him as own character, he is a thrill seeker professional criminal who is only interested in money and kicks, not power, revenge or blood shed. He can even have other C-list villains join him in a gang and take Spidey on using superior team work. There that's easy.

That's more interesting than another mysterious Goblin style villain, which is what menace is, if he is a gilder and uses Halloween style gimmicks and looks like a goblin (which he does) he is a Goblin style villain. Heck Jack O'Lantern was more or less a poor man's goblin as well and this guy is worse. How is he supposed to be interesting when he is such a knock off.

Menace looks more like a gragolye than a goblin, and again we havent heard his back story so you are judging preMaturely my good sir, you have no basis to say he's a knock off.

And it wouldn't be belivable that he would get his own group since he's not much of a leader. And bullseye usually does stuff because he is hire to do it.

Nad the last Jack wasn't a goblin knock-off.
 
Menace looks more like a gargoyle than a goblin...


Dude. Mole posted a picture. The guy looks like a goblin.
Gargoyle, goblin, gremlin, whatever. He's clearly not reminiscent of any other sort of "monster" figures.
He was created to look like a goblin, so that way we'd all say "Hey! He looks like a goblin, which means he's probably just as much of a **** as all of the other Goblins Spidey has come up against. I can't wait for this guy to be a pain in his *** for a ridiculously long period of time and have several thousand subsequent characters pick up the mantle of "Guy Who Looks Like a Goblin" in his wake."

It doesn't mean he's related to the Osborne's or anyone else before - just that he's a crazy **** that happens to look like a goblin, for familiarity's sake.
 
It was Brian K. Vaughan who had him beat Shocker not BMB ya ninny.

Little quick to bash bendis huh?


Note: i meant ninny in the most respectfull way.8)

sorry i never read The Hood, I did read Beyond however, I thought it must have been something i forgot about in the early NA Hood issues

still beside the point having a brand new character like the Hood come in and pummel an existing character for no reason other than making said new character seeem awesome is still a ***** move.
 
sorry i never read The Hood, I did read Beyond however, I thought it must have been something i forgot about in the early NA Hood issues

still beside the point having a brand new character like the Hood come in and pummel an existing character for no reason other than making said new character seeem awesome is still a ***** move.


Actually, he didn't really pummel him.

He was doing fine until Constricter,Shocker,Jack O'Lantern started to step on each others toes.

It was one of the best written Shocker i've ever seen actually.
 
Actually, he didn't really pummel him.

He was doing fine until Constricter,Shocker,Jack O'Lantern started to step on each others toes.

It was one of the best written Shocker i've ever seen actually.

when i said beside the point i meant that when that happens in general not just the example at hand, i said someone like the hood, not just the hood
 
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