Are sympathetic villains unrealistic?

The Overlord

Well-Known Member
I have head some people say that there are no sympathetic villains in the UU, because sympathetic villains are unrealistic and that in real life criminals are just bad people.

I think that's BS personally. Most criminals are criminals because they grew up in a poor neighborhood and didn't get a good education, they are criminals because they had no other options in life, not because they are evil for no reason. Many criminals go out of their way not to kill people, because they don't want a murder rap on their sheet. No one wakes up one day and says: "Ha, ha, I will become a criminal today, because I'm evil! Ha, ha, ha!"

That's a childish assumption. I mean look at a lot of important figures in history, Josip Broz Tito or Che Guevara or Malcolm X or Napoleon Bonaparte, these are people who you can't just box into good or evil boxes, they are morally complex individuals who had a different solution to the world's problems, which put them in conflict with other people. Compare that to Ultimate Magneto who is such a cliched evil villain you might as well give him a top hat and mustache.

Making every villain in the UU as a morally complex as Dick Dastardly not realistic, its lazy and childish writing to do so. Not every "bad" person in real life are evil people who eats puppies for no reason. In real life most people have good qualities and bad qualities. In the UU villains are as developed as villains from some goofy cartoon from the 80s, that's not good writing.
 

Planet-man

Well-Known Member
I have head some people say that there are no sympathetic villains in the UU, because sympathetic villains are unrealistic and that in real life criminals are just bad people.

:?

I have NOT heard anybody say that ever. I've heard people describe tons of criminals as just being bad people, but I've never heard anybody argue that this is the case overall and would somehow be more realistic than villains with motivations. Seriously, who is saying this?
 
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The Overlord

Well-Known Member
:?

I have NOT heard anybody say that ever. I've heard people describe tons of criminals as just being bad people, but I've never heard anybody argue that this is the case overall and would somehow be more realistic than villains with motivations. Seriously, who is saying this?

http://www.ultimatecentral.com/forum/showpost.php?p=464777&postcount=198

Plus how many Ultimate villains have actual motives? Why is Ultimate Magneto such a racist prick? His back story seems to contradict itself, was his family killed in a genocide or was that a lie and was he born into a rich oil family that he doesn't speak to?

What's Ultimate Electro's motive, why is he a criminal? I mean the UU is supposed to be more realistic, but all the villains are as developed as Dick Dastardly, how is that realistic?
 
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Void.M

Well-Known Member
http://www.ultimatecentral.com/forum/showpost.php?p=464777&postcount=198

Plus how many Ultimate villains have actual motives? Why is Ultimate Magneto such a racist prick? His back story seems to contradict itself, was his family killed in a genocide or was that a lie and was he born into a rich oil family that he doesn't speak to?

Just because you're a victim of racism doesn't mean you can't be racist.It fuels the fire if anything and keeps the vicious cycle going.
 

The Overlord

Well-Known Member
Just because you're a victim of racism doesn't mean you can't be racist.It fuels the fire if anything and keeps the vicious cycle going.

But why, why is he such an A-hole? Ultimate magneto is about as a deep a character as Dick Dastardly. How is Magneto being a an over the top one dimensional villain realistic? I wouldn't have a problem with that, if some of the other Ultimate villains were deeper characters, but pretty well 95% of Ultimate villains are like that as well. You might as give Ultimate magneto a mustache to twirl, he is that shallow.

Seriously I think all the villains having the same generic evil personality is not only not realistic, its lazy. I like some evil villains, variety is the spice of life, I like some anti villains to go with my complete monsters. Heck the UU is pretty thin when it comes to magnificent bastards as well.
 
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Gemini

Well-Known Member
Ultimate Venom is pretty sympathetic and deep.

I wouldn't say that at all.

The succes of Ultimate Venom was the brilliant way Bendis recreated the symbiote for a more modern audience. Ultimate Eddie Brock is like a 5 year old kid in his mine phase, using his parents death as a way to make his obsession with entitlement palatable, he has no redeeming qualities to make him sympathetic, just the death of his parents and the collapse of his life (which was his own fault) makes the reader pity him.

Pity =/= Sympathy

Then Loeb turned him into a milkshake
 

SSJmole

Face-Punching As Foreign Policy
I wouldn't say that at all.

The succes of Ultimate Venom was the brilliant way Bendis recreated the symbiote for a more modern audience. Ultimate Eddie Brock is like a 5 year old kid in his mine phase, using his parents death as a way to make his obsession with entitlement palatable, he has no redeeming qualities to make him sympathetic, just the death of his parents and the collapse of his life (which was his own fault) makes the reader pity him.


What about the part from the game when It shows him struggling with suit, fighting with it as he really didn't want to become a monster that hurts people.


Pity =/= Sympathy


Actually .... YES IT DOES.

http://thesaurus.reference.com/browse/sympathy

Main Entry: sympathy
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: pity
 
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Gemini

Well-Known Member
What about the part from the game when It shows him struggling with suit, fighting with it as he really didn't want to become a monster that hurts people.

Oh yes, were referencing the game as if it were actually in continuity, now?

what is this 2006?

the pity/sympathy may have not been the thing I was looking for, but my point stands.
 
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SSJmole

Face-Punching As Foreign Policy
Oh yes, were referencing the game as if it were actually in continuity, now?

what is this 2006?

Didn't they convert it into an Arc and say the game was Cannon.

If not then the stuff you posted = good reason as Pity = Sympathy :p
 

Gemini

Well-Known Member
Didn't they convert it into an Arc and say the game was Cannon.

If not then the stuff you posted = good reason as Pity = Sympathy :p

Did you even read that arc? they skated around it, and basically re-did the entire thing because the game didn't fit with the proper continuity.

and while ****ing thesaurus.com says pity=sympathy, I disagree. Pity is an emotion brought forth by feeling bad for someone because of their negative traits. Sympathy is an emotion brought forth by feeling bad for someone you feel is a good person who doesn't deserve to be in the situation they are in.

but it's all semantics, so whatever
 

SSJmole

Face-Punching As Foreign Policy
Did you even read that arc? they skated around it, and basically re-did the entire thing because the game didn't fit with the proper continuity.

No I did not. I'm behind on my Ultimate Spider-man. Clone Saga = last arc I read (possibly the one after that)


and while ****ing thesaurus.com says pity=sympathy, I disagree. Pity is an emotion brought forth by feeling bad for someone because of their negative traits. Sympathy is an emotion brought forth by feeling bad for someone you feel is a good person who doesn't deserve to be in the situation they are in.

but it's all semantics, so whatever

Dude the last bit was added as a joke. I even added the joking :p Have a break... have a Kit Kat or something.
 

Doublehex

Well-Known Member
Is it just me, or are a ton of posts missing from this thread? I mean, we have posts from 2006, then 2008, and then 2009. And it reads like there are some missing pieces.

Maybe I am just going all nutty. :/
 

ProjectX2

Don't expect me to take you with me when I go to s
Is it just me, or are a ton of posts missing from this thread? I mean, we have posts from 2006, then 2008, and then 2009. And it reads like there are some missing pieces.

Maybe I am just going all nutty. :/

There are only posts from the last two days. You are insane.
 

The Overlord

Well-Known Member
What about the part from the game when It shows him struggling with suit, fighting with it as he really didn't want to become a monster that hurts people.

Not really, first the game is not in cannon, so it doesn't count. Second Eddie willing bonded with the symbiote by choice so he ruined his own life, I don't feel sorry for jerks who ruin their own life and blame other people, which is what Eddie does. Third Eddie interaction with Gwen before he was villain established him as a total creep and why should I care if a creep's life is ruined.

Ultimate Venom is an interesting character for sure, but sympathetic, not in the least.
 

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