Are sympathetic villains unrealistic?

Doublehex said:
Oh wait, goddmanit, it was another thread I was thinking of, but the premise was very similar to this.

Goshdarnit, I am going batty.
Click to expand...

Hah, and they say i'm the crazy one in this forum.
 
I think we need to define the term "sympathetic villain"

do you mean more complex than Dr Doom who is simply a bad guy and wants to take over the world?

do you mean like Sandman from Spider-Man 3 who keeps saying, "I'm not a bad person! My daughter is sick!"


I don't think the villains in the UU are more black and white than 616 villains, if that's what you are asking

Ultimate Hobgoblin isn't just a bad guy, he was a confused and crazy teenager who mutated himself b/c the hypnotic pshycotherapy his dad made him take made him hear voices.

The Ultimate Enforcers felt terrible when they stood by and let Kingpin kill the Big Man

Ultimate Silver Sable is just a mercenary with daddy issues, she isn't evil

and several of the Ultimate brotherhood of Mutant members were simply following a charismatic leader and fighting for what they believed in (Toad, the guy that explodes that Charles and Erik saved from being shot, not to mention Wanda and Pietro)
 
captaincanuck65 said:
I think we need to define the term "sympathetic villain"

do you mean more complex than Dr Doom who is simply a bad guy and wants to take over the world?
Click to expand...

Doom is not that bland, he has a motive (the way his parents were taken from him, his code of honour and the fact that if he was in charge, he would at least try to make the world a better place.

captaincanuck65 said:
do you mean like Sandman from Spider-Man 3 who keeps saying, "I'm not a bad person! My daughter is sick!"
Click to expand...

What about BTAS mr. freeze?

captaincanuck65 said:
I don't think the villains in the UU are more black and white than 616 villains, if that's what you are asking

Ultimate Hobgoblin isn't just a bad guy, he was a confused and crazy teenager who mutated himself b/c the hypnotic pshycotherapy his dad made him take made him hear voices.
Click to expand...

He's the exception that proves the rule, I mean does Sandman, Electro, Vulture, Omega red have any personality? He is the only major villain who is sympathetic


captaincanuck65 said:
The Ultimate Enforcers felt terrible when they stood by and let Kingpin kill the Big Man
Click to expand...

These are minor canon fodder characters, who cares? I don't care if the almost nothing characters have some characterization, I might more characterization for the bigger characters.

Look at the new Spidey cartoon, almost every villain is developed and has a motive

captaincanuck65 said:
Ultimate Silver Sable is just a mercenary with daddy issues, she isn't evil
Click to expand...

Does she count as a villain though? I said sympathetic villain

captaincanuck65 said:
and several of the Ultimate brotherhood of Mutant members were simply following a charismatic leader and fighting for what they believed in (Toad, the guy that explodes that Charles and Erik saved from being shot, not to mention Wanda and Pietro)
Click to expand...

How well developed is Toad and the other brotherhood members as characters? How is Blob a sympathetic character, the guy who eats people or mastermind who is a rapist? Just because they are following a charismatic leader doesn't make them sympathetic.

And Witch and Quicksilver switched sides, I'm talking about someone who stayed a villain but is sympathetic.
 
Last edited:
A lot of Brotherhood members were simply mutants who followed and believed strongly in Magneto's ideologies and not just barbaric bastards. You should try taking a look at how Millar treated Mastermind, Madrox and Blob among others during the early days of UXM.
 
anyone mentioned invincible yet?

They had a great sympatetic villain issue a couple weeks back.
 
cmdrjanjalani said:
A lot of Brotherhood members were simply mutants who followed and believed strongly in Magneto's ideologies and not just barbaric bastards. You should try taking a look at how Millar treated Mastermind, Madrox and Blob among others during the early days of UXM.
Click to expand...

well the fact is Blob and Mastermind are complete monsters now, so that underminds any "sympathic" actions.

And really they were never really sympathetic, Ultimate Magneto is like Hitler or bin Laden, they are helping to further the agenda of someone who is genocidal. How is that symapthetic? Did anyone of them ever say,"hey maybe genocide is wrong?" They are about as sympathetic as rank and file Nazis or Al Qaeda members. They believe in a racist, hate filled ideology, they not sympathetic.
 
Question. What is the point of asking us about sympathetic villains only to then turn around and say "*insert villain* is not sympathetic*" Clearly they must be as sympathetic is a point of view. They feel they are sympathetic does not mean they are wrong as they must be if they felt sympathy towards them.
 
I think the problem isn't with villains not being sympathetic. It's about Overlord not being capable of sympathy.

Badaboom.
 
SSJmole said:
Question. What is the point of asking us about sympathetic villains only to then turn around and say "*insert villain* is not sympathetic*" Clearly they must be as sympathetic is a point of view. They feel they are sympathetic does not mean they are wrong as they must be if they felt sympathy towards them.
Click to expand...

Well its debatable, But I'm saying I haven't heard any convincing arguments to say that that most of these characters are sympathetic. That's what we are debating.

But how many villains in the UU are victims of circumstance, rather than just being evil or have real moral standards or actually do something good once and a while? Not very many.

I mean how UU villains are as morally complex as BTAS Mr. Freeze or heck most of the villains in the new Spidey cartoon? Maybe like one or two. ultimate hobgoblin I can buy as a sympathetic villain, but he's a bout it, most of the villains in the new Spidey cartoon are far more smypathetic then their ultimate counterparts.

I think the sympathy bar is pretty low when genocidal fanatics and selfish, predator creeps make the cut. Sorry but I have high standards when it comes to sympathy.

Zombipanda said:
I think the problem isn't with villains not being sympathetic. It's about Overlord not being capable of sympathy.

Badaboom.
Click to expand...

Yes because clearly I'm not being sympathetic to the plight of genocidal mutants, how silly of me. (=
 
Last edited:
The Overlord said:
And really they were never really sympathetic, Ultimate Magneto is like Hitler or bin Laden, they are helping to further the agenda of someone who is genocidal. How is that symapthetic? Did anyone of them ever say,"hey maybe genocide is wrong?" They are about as sympathetic as rank and file Nazis or Al Qaeda members. They believe in a racist, hate filled ideology, they not sympathetic.
Click to expand...

Lets run with the hitler anology shall we? Unlike the nazi-party, mutants were the minority from the beginning. A minority that the government was so afraid of they built giant killer robots to kill them for simply existing. Let me run that by you again;

The government built giant robots to kill you, in your bed, simply because they dont like you. You pay your taxes, go to work every day and one day you wake up under a government-issue robokiller sent to end you simply because you were born.

So yeah, magneto is like hitler, if hitler was fighting for jewish rights. Sure, his methods are crooked, and he's lost track of what he was fighting for because of his delusions of grandeur, but f*ck. If it was me, i'd be backing him and not that hippy Xavier! When they built giant robots to kill your entire species its time to pick up the slack and head to war! The time for flowerpower is over x-men! I'm gonna hunt me some godd*mn Flatscans!
 
Having not read this thread in its entirety, I have to say that I don't think sympathetic villains are unrealistic, but I don't think they should be the only measure of a villain's awesomeness.

There are villains that work because they are sympathetic... and there are villlains that work because they aren't.
 
ourchair said:
Having not read this thread in its entirety, I have to say that I don't think sympathetic villains are unrealistic, but I don't think they should be the only measure of a villain's awesomeness.

There are villains that work because they are sympathetic... and there are villlains that work because they aren't.
Click to expand...

But variety is the spice of life, I would say the 616 universe is way better when it comes to variety of personality for villains the UU, where it seems like almost villain is evil for evil's sake and wants to eat puppies.

In the 616 universe Red Skull is unique because he is the most villain around, in the UU almost every villain is pure evil, so he wouldn't be unique in the UU.
 
The Overlord said:
But variety is the spice of life, I would say the 616 universe is way better when it comes to variety of personality for villains the UU, where it seems like almost villain is evil for evil's sake and wants to eat puppies.

In the 616 universe Red Skull is unique because he is the most villain around, in the UU almost every villain is pure evil, so he wouldn't be unique in the UU.
Click to expand...
Exactly.

I'd rather have a mix of unsympathetic AND sympathetic villains. I wasn't arguing otherwise.
 
ourchair said:
Exactly.

I'd rather have a mix of unsympathetic AND sympathetic villains. I wasn't arguing otherwise.
Click to expand...

See I like evil villains, I like Joker, Red Skull, Mr. Sinsiter, Bullseye, Green Goblin and a ton of others of villains who have no redeeming qualities, but I like having characters like Magneto to balance it out.

The problem I have with the UU is there is no balance in the villains personality and some people like Venom Melendez, think that is more realistic.
 
I didn't even realize you were focusing on Ultimate comics until reading this reply and noticng that this thread is filed under Ultimate Comics.

With that in mind, I can't disagree with you on that. I'm fine with unsympathetic villains, but I do agree that there much too common in the UU.

Of course, I don't read Ultimate Comics anymore, and currently its problem is it needs better ****ing writers and editors.
 
ourchair said:
I didn't even realize you were focusing on Ultimate comics until reading this reply and noticng that this thread is filed under Ultimate Comics.

With that in mind, I can't disagree with you on that. I'm fine with unsympathetic villains, but I do agree that there much too common in the UU.

Of course, I don't read Ultimate Comics anymore, and currently its problem is it needs better ****ing writers and editors.
Click to expand...

Of course you don't, no one does. There is no reason too.

Actually though under Loeb the villains have become worst, before they were just underdeveloped, now thy are disgusting. Magneto now completely acts like even more like Dick Dastardly, Mastermind is a rapist, Pyro is a would be rapist, despite being part of the X-Men in the past, Blob ate the Wasp. Its completely vile.

I would rather read an issue of Thunderbolts instead, then subject myself to Loeb's non sense, there are some well written villains.
 
I think Hobgoblin is the best choice for the UU sympathetic villain.He has the perfect background and the perfect storytelling for that...
The son of the pure-evil guy ends up with his father's heritage, becomes something like him out of his control, wants to stop it and still ends up as the guy who devastates the city, and gets killed by his very own father... Perfect!

Ultimate Hobgoblin is one of the best characters ever in comic history (of course in my own opinion)

Oh my... I can't believe we all forgot about "Herman"!
He is pretty sympathetic too, I feel good to see him every single time he appears :D:D
pathetic little Hermie...
 
Last edited:
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top