Darth Series Discussion: Ultimatum

My problem with Ultimatum is that I never felt like the Ultimate Universe, in its earliest form, was about being unexpected. It was about telling stories free of constraints. When you magnify the 'unexpecteness' of events in comics, all you really can do is permanently kill off characters, because permanent death is one of the only shocking events in long-term media. Which goes against unexpectedness at all.

Honestly, The Ultimates 2 was more shocking to me than Ultimatum, and it followed the same pattern as The Ultimates, almost to a T.
 
E said:
Not that this thread needs to be justified, but Ultimate Power was 500 time worse.

Just sayin'...
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I hereby retract this statement.
 
E said:
I hereby retract this statement.
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That seems wise, wasn't Ultimate Power just a waste of time, while this crossover actually does damage to the whole universe it is set in?

Hey what about an Ultimatum Sat morning cartoon series? :wink: Hey kids, wanna see Val chop off Magneto's arm?
 
How does Fury know about Doom killing Wanda?

How did they even get to the Squadron Supreme verse? Why are they there over five years after Fury first got there? Why are people continuing to get killed for no reason at all?

I'm already never buying another Ultimate book, but this series actually makes me not want to even read one again.
 
The Overlord said:
That seems wise, wasn't Ultimate Power just a waste of time, while this crossover actually does damage to the whole universe it is set in?
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I'd argue that Ultimate Power damaged the whole "universe" as well, but I do agree that it's not nearly as bad.

When I made the statement originally I believe it was just after Ultimatum #1 came out. I would have never even fathomed the series would be this bad. Bad, yes, but not this bad.

This book is seriously - SERIOUSLY - the worst thing ever written. I try my best to not be personal with creators when talking about books but after reading this - and especially taking into consideration Ultimates 3 - I do not believe Jeph Loeb should be writing comics. He is not good at it. And that's putting it nicely. Marvel should fire him because he is damaging their reputation and their properties.
 
Sacred&Profane said:
My problem with Ultimatum is that I never felt like the Ultimate Universe, in its earliest form, was about being unexpected. It was about telling stories free of constraints. When you magnify the 'unexpecteness' of events in comics, all you really can do is permanently kill off characters, because permanent death is one of the only shocking events in long-term media. Which goes against unexpectedness at all.

Honestly, The Ultimates 2 was more shocking to me than Ultimatum, and it followed the same pattern as The Ultimates, almost to a T.
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Astute observation. I completely agree.
 
E said:
I'd argue that Ultimate Power damaged the whole "universe" as well, but I do agree that it's not nearly as bad.

When I made the statement originally I believe it was just after Ultimatum #1 came out. I would have never even fathomed the series would be this bad. Bad, yes, but not this bad.

This book is seriously - SERIOUSLY - the worst thing ever written. I try my best to not be personal with creators when talking about books but after reading this - and especially taking into consideration Ultimates 3 - I do not believe Jeph Loeb should be writing comics. He is not good at it. And that's putting it nicely. Marvel should fire him because he is damaging their reputation and their properties.
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Loeb is either a fallen creator past his prime or someone who was never good and got some well hyped projects in the early 90s that allowed him to create a myth around himself. Either he way he should not be writing comics.

At least All Star Batman and Robin was so bad it was good, filled with unintended comedy, this has nothing of sort, its not even funny, it is just depressing.

You know the big problem I have this, no one dies with dignity, everyone is killed off in the most reckless manner possible. No one goes out as a hero, everyone goes out as a punk or a loser or a non entity. If these characters weren't fictional I would call this the comic book version of a snuff film. Would kill Loeb to have one character have a meaningful death?

I mean if this is supposed to be the end of the UU, for all intents and purposes, compare this to the ending of DCUA? Can we even argue which one was better?
 
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The Overlord said:
You know the big problem I have this, no one dies with dignity, everyone is killed off in the most reckless manner possible. No one goes out as a hero, everyone goes out as a punk or a loser or a non entity. If these characters weren't fictional I would call this the comic book version of a snuff film. Would kill Loeb to have one character have a meaningful death?
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There is definitely a snuff movie element to modern comics. Fans seem to really respond to their favourite heroes being murdered in as sick and sadistic a manner as possible, though it's almost always in some alternate timeline.

I trace this back to the success of Claremont's X-Men Days of Future Past arc. Also, Alan Moore and to a lesser extent Grant Morrison both used this gimmick early in their career to make their work seem particularly edgy and extreme. Though back then, neither was allowed to play with major properties, and they've both renounced this approach to some extent since. Oh yeah, and they're good writers, so it meant more than shock value.

But lesser writers started using this as a fallback ploy, and publishers notice that death issues become hot collectors items, and so it gets out of hand and actually does become something of a sick, sado-masochistic kick for readers and writers.

And so, eventually, we reach Ultimatum. Which is the perfect illustration of what Grant Morrison said recently regarding All-Star Superman and the importance of its utopian vision as opposed to the dominant Dystopian vision of 'edgy' comics in the 90s and beyond, and what Alan Moore has said about the failure of all the 'dark' 'adult' comics that came after Watchmen to get the point at all.

Ultimatum is just sick and nasty with a veneer of sentimentality that just makes it all the more unpalatable.
 
Again, very astute.

The snuff movie element is why saying "Sid from TOY STORY wrote this" is so apt.

Like Superboy Prime and Rulk, ULTIMATUM is an puerile, adolescent foolishness that mistakes violence for drama.
 
The Overlord said:
You know the big problem I have this, no one dies with dignity, everyone is killed off in the most reckless manner possible. No one goes out as a hero, everyone goes out as a punk or a loser or a non entity. If these characters weren't fictional I would call this the comic book version of a snuff film. Would kill Loeb to have one character have a meaningful death?
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Captain Brighton said:
There is definitely a snuff movie element to modern comics.
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I don't know about that...but there definitely is with Ultimatum. It's pure shock value - there is no plot, no subplots, nothing to keep it interesting. Comic readers are completely numb to this type of shock treatment because not only does dead never mean dead, but this extremism in killing characters and upsetting the status quo is usually proven to be completely undone and, therefore meaningless.

Lots of stories are ultimately meaningless in the end, but this isn't even fun or compelling for the ride there.
 
I read the first three issues of IRREDEEMABLE. It is another puerile, psychotic fantasy. There is a current trend to relive the mistakes of the 80s at the moment.

I mean, you look at these writers, Loeb, Waid, Johns, Bendis... all their attempts at horrific superheroes is such a poor, pale imitation of MIRACLEMAN.

MIRACLEMAN was 1982. And here we are, almost 30 years later, and they're just ripping it off without getting what the hell it was all about.

I blame Todd McFarlane. If MIRACLEMAN was in print, I doubt such high-level writers could get away with so brazenly ripping it off.
 
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Bass said:
I read the first three issues of IRREDEEMABLE. It is another puerile, psychotic fantasy. There is a current trend to relive the mistakes of the 80s at the moment.

I mean, you look at these writers, Loeb, Waid, Johns, Bendis... all their attempts at horrific superheroes is such a poor, pale imitation of MIRACLEMAN.

MIRACLEMAN was 1982. And here we are, almost 30 years later, and they're just ripping it off without getting what the hell it was all about.

I blame Todd McFarlane. If MIRACLEMAN was in print, I doubt such high-level writers could get away with so brazenly ripping it off.
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To be fair, Bendis, Waid and Johns are capable better work and just have moments where they fell into this trap, but still have worth as creators. I'm not sure Loeb has any worth as creator any more or if he ever did.

Again the problem isn't that these characters are being killed off, the problem is no one has death with dignity, no one died a hero, no one had death that meant anything. I can think of a bunch of lesser characters from the 616 universe from Executioner to freaking Porcupine who had deaths that meant far more then any of these deaths seen in this mini. Ultimate Gobby died just a year or two ago and his death had more meaning then then Spidey's death, that's just bizarre.

This is the comic book version of a movie like Freddy Got Fingered, a work with no redeeming value what so ever.

Anyway I think people here may enjoy this review" http://my.spill.com/profiles/blogs/marvel-ultimatumworst
 
Bass said:
I blame Todd McFarlane. If MIRACLEMAN was in print, I doubt such high-level writers could get away with so brazenly ripping it off.
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Oooh, that's good. I concur.
 
Bass said:
I read the first three issues of IRREDEEMABLE. It is another puerile, psychotic fantasy. There is a current trend to relive the mistakes of the 80s at the moment.

I mean, you look at these writers, Loeb, Waid, Johns, Bendis... all their attempts at horrific superheroes is such a poor, pale imitation of MIRACLEMAN.

MIRACLEMAN was 1982. And here we are, almost 30 years later, and they're just ripping it off without getting what the hell it was all about.

I blame Todd McFarlane. If MIRACLEMAN was in print, I doubt such high-level writers could get away with so brazenly ripping it off.
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How dare you put Johns in the same group as Loeb and Bendis.
 
Remember the Marvel Mangaverse?

I was thinking today and how it's descent mirrors that of Ultimatum. It was no where near as popular as the Ultimate Universe, but around when Doom showed up, it started killing off characters at random. During the Doom arc, only a small handful of characters died, and they had some impact on the plot. But then they tried that reboot with the Hand as the main villains and killed off just about the entire cast in a manner strikingly similar to Ultimatum. I think the main reason nothing has been done with it since is because they killed off every character that was interesting, and the one's that survived just weren't. I'm wondering if something similar will happen at the end of Ultimatum, and it's looking pretty likely so far.

Of course, even when it was killing everyone off for shock value, Marvel Mangaverse was still a decent read. Though that just might be because Mary Jane as Spider-Woman was so darn cute.

(This feels like something that could go in the other Ultimatum thread, but I wasn't sure I could bring it up while being neutral.)
thee great one said:
How dare you put Johns in the same group as Loeb and Bendis.
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While Johns is a lot better then those two, he does have a noticeable liking for gore. Red Lantern and Superboy-Prime, anyone?
 
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But just cause a comic as gore doesn't make it Miracleman.

And the Red Lantern's spitting blood wasn't even his idea.
 
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My own Alan Moore reference for "Ultimatum as superhero snuff movie" was his take on Captain Britain, actually: specifically, when The Fury was first introduced and we saw him, in flashback, killing off all these superficially disguised versions of British superhero characters from the 1960s.

The Fury was absolutely terrifying. And it made it worse because these characters were really from strips designed for children; they had this innocent faith that things would work out, their adventures and battles had never been dark or gory, they always won. And suddenly they were being slaughtered. And they saw each other die, and Moore showed their disbelief and despair and grief. It was gut-wrenching. None of the characters in Ultimatum seem to be feeling anything beyond a clenched-teeth "lets get this guy."

Grant Morrison did something very similar to Moore in his Zenith strip for 2000AD, bringing together and then killing off a multiverse of Brit comic characters from days gone by.

But yes, I agree with Bass in that 'Miracleman' refined the concept of the dark, adult, realistic superhero to the point where you almost couldn't go any further down that road. Watchmen may have been technically cleverer, but Miracleman is the stronger strip on a mythic level, IMO.

It's almost as though its non-availability were a conspiracy to stop it showing up our current top comic creators as the charlatans they are...

(By the way, sorry for my reference points being a) British, b) from the 80s and c) often out of print. I can only apologise and admit that I am a) British, b) 38, and c) I have a lot of old comics and not many new ones. I basically missed the 90s completely, but on my return to the field as an adult, this broad obsession with superhero death was one thing I really noticed. So I'm not an expert, and it's not in everything, but it does seem to be there).
 
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