Is Thor Crazy?

[John Q. Public]

I disagree, mainly because Millar has done a wonderful job in my opinion of setting it all up. This is an issue thats been going on since early in the first volume, the question of Thor's godhood. And with Loki even apparently showing up in the background of the first volume, apparently they planned it well in advance. So it doesn't seem like a cop-out, least not to me, as it seems it was an intrinsic part of the story from the very beginning. It isn't like this all just developed in the last issue or two, or even only in this volume alone.

Yeah, good point. But I'm expecting more of a "wow" factor than just Loki being an evil god who altered reality in certain places.

 

[Guijllons]

Yeah, good point. But I'm expecting more of a "wow" factor than just Loki being an evil god who altered reality in certain places.

But him doing it and turning his team mates against hi was the important bit. It wasn't as though he just walked up to Thor and went *poof* you're now trapped in a cage and everyone hates you.

 

[John Q. Public]

How? If Thor and Loki are gods then what they're doing is fulfilling their duties with little more free will than a dog humping a table leg.
A force is taking the Ultimates apart, we know that now, if someone is going to remove Thor it's going to be his natural enemy.

Down boy. Your best metaphor for free will is dog humping a table leg? There are children present. (holds up mirror).

I'm expecting (and, frankly, demanding) good stuff at the end. If it's well-executed, then anything is possible. Speculation is great, but the guy that thunk up this stuff has to deliver, and I expect he will.

I have a very small wish list for the ending, and that is to see Captain America kill the hell out of somebody.

 

[Guijllons]

Down boy. Your best metaphor for free will is dog humping a table leg? There are children present. (holds up mirror).

It was a metaphor for the lack of free will and understanding why they do what they do. It's perfectly clear and acceptable and works on loads of great levels.

And children should be sheltered dogs humping table legs now? I'm thinking of marketing 'the child bubble' to America, just stick your kids in with an Xbox and a hatch for food and pull em out when they hit 21.

 

[Nas-T!]

I just love this plot. Personally I'm all for Thor being the tragic hero. I'd love to see him get "killed" and then The Ultimates find out that Loki really was behind it all. I believe Thor is a God. What do you think.

I think that Thor's a God and here's why. I reckon Jeph Loeb gave it away in his Ultimates 3 interview in Wizard Magazine. He said he knew what Mark had planned for the end of The Ultimates 2 and I suppose he'd have to. Then, when commenting on each character, he said that felt that what Mark did with Thor was cool because: "Loki messing with everyone's head, the idea that the world thinks he's nuts, but we know he isn't." - SInce when do we KNOW he isn't crazy? See...that line gave it away, he's a god. I'd prefer it to remain unanswered, or (if it's revealed) that he's a god. BUT, if he's just a crazy, I hope they reveal that his real name is Donald Blake or something along those lines!

I encourage this to be the new official poll because it's the most interesting thing happening in the Ultimate Universe right now.

Yeah, until President Thor starts!!!

Some other questions:

1. What is Loki going to benefit from making Thor out to be crazy and destroying him?

2. Where'd the bomb go in "Homeland Security"?

1. For one thing he leaves his greatest adversary trapped in a cell under The Triskelion, thus effectively removing any trouble he may have had while he gets his ducks in a row. Also, he gets the pleasure of taunting his brother just for some good, evil and mischievious fun!

2. Exactly where Thor said it did. He ain't crazy.

Nas

 

[Guijllons]

Oookkaaayyy....looks like we both managed to murder this fine thread.

All my posts have been relevant to the discussion at hand. Yours haven't.

The nature of being a god in the Ultimate universe is something which should be addressed, and being in god in general, obviously. You can't discount Thor and Loki's actions unless you appreciate how they're motivated.

 

[John Q. Public]

All my posts have been relevant to the discussion at hand. Yours haven't.

The nature of being a god in the Ultimate universe is something which should be addressed, and being in god in general, obviously. You can't discount Thor and Loki's actions unless you appreciate how they're motivated.

Oh, stop. You and your X-Box children and table-humping dogs? Besides, look up. Loeb leaked it. Thor's a god. I'm still expecting something more than a Loki-does-Wanda ending.

 

[Guijllons]

Loeb's an idiot. He probably didn't know the history of Thor was supposed to be ambiguous in the first place.

 

[DIrishB]

Yeah, good point. But I'm expecting more of a "wow" factor than just Loki being an evil god who altered reality in certain places.

That qualifies as a "wow" in my book, but maybe I'm just too easy to please.

Down boy. Your best metaphor for free will is dog humping a table leg?

Technically that would be the opposite of free will. I'm pretty sure its a natural instinct in their case, not a rational decision.

I'm expecting (and, frankly, demanding) good stuff at the end. If it's well-executed, then anything is possible. Speculation is great, but the guy that thunk up this stuff has to deliver, and I expect he will.

I'm sure Millar will close out the series quite well, no worries there. I just hope he pokes more fun at France in the process.

I have a very small wish list for the ending, and that is to see Captain America kill the hell out of somebody.

Especially Captain France...eh, while he's at it, Captain Spain too, why not?

 

[John Q. Public]

The nature of being a god in the Ultimate universe is something which should be addressed, and being in god in general, obviously.

Well, since this is so deep, Jesus, Mohammed, Buddha and Loki would probably Glock everybody in sight. Think:

"Passion of The Christ II" -- They mocked him, they turned his wine into water, they hammered him to a coupla two-by-fours....but now HE'S BACK: Swinging a cross, out for revenge, he's pounding Pilate into powder and reaming Roman rear. Judas? Dead man. Dean Wormer? Dead man. "Sweet Christmas" shouts Luke Cage as son 'a god pounds a railroad spike into the suddenly breakable unbreakable skin of the superhero. JC is back, mad as hell and willing to kill for mankind. Starts Friday. Parental guidance suggested.

 

[Guijllons]

This is why Miller isn't writing for the Ultimate line.

But seriously, by working within the existing framework, it's a concept that can be examined. If Thor is a god, then why is he in the cage? Is he hoping that he can convince his captors that they were wrong? If that were the case then he would pull a trick like he did on Banner. Does he require them to have faith therefore? He's not making himself out to be any kind of role-model with his protests that he is clearly a god then.

So he is trapped in the cage, he cannot use the powers that the technology afforded him.

The question perhaps shouldn't be 'Is he a god?', but 'what's the point of him being a god?'.

 

[cmdrjanjalani]

We have no idea what kind of "gods" Thor and his kind are. For all we know, they're a very powerful alien race or actually divine spirits taking physical form like Christ. I'm just sure that it's not just all in Thor's head. It would be a serious cop-out if Loki, and the rest of the Asgardians were just figments of Thor's imagination. This is also why I believe that the Apocalypse that Mr.Sinister sees is real.

 

[Bass]

I thought Thor being a god was all done and done when "Brothers" came out.

Did everyone just forget about my Loki Manifesto?

 

[Guijllons]

It is a mystery that seems to be enduring longer that it needs.
Although Thor will certainly not remain an inactive member of the team for the remainder of the series, so what he does next is still open.

 

[lesta90]

I think this has a whole religious parallel, The thing with Jesus/Thor being rejected by their fathers when they needed him most. I'm not religious but, its just obvious whats going on, Who turned against Jesus when he said he was the son of God?? His own people... Just as Fury & the rest of the Ultimates did to Thor. I also think Loki is real, he was the first villian that the 616 Avengers Fought, so it makes sense that he'd be around, and what better way to mess things up. If any of us were to say we were Jesus, its fair to say we'd be locked up.

 

[E]

It is a mystery that seems to be enduring longer that it needs.

I agree, but I don't think it's a flaw in the storyline. More like because the issues take so long to come out and everyone talks about it to death.

 

[Guijllons]

I agree, but I don't think it's a flaw in the storyline. More like because the issues take so long to come out and everyone talks about it to death.

Not just that, it's credit to Millar's writing. Delays or not, people still do want to discuss an element of a story that is, for the main part, over.

 

[Seldes Katne]

The question perhaps shouldn't be 'Is he a god?', but 'what's the point of him being a god?'.

If you want to extend the Thor/Jesus parallel, a similar question would be: What was the point to Jesus being the Son of God? Really, what did this man do that was so Earth-shattering? In the Bible, we get descriptions of miracles, but they're all pretty low-key. Five loaves and two fish; healing the blind man and the lepers; changing water into wine at a wedding feast. About the most impressive miracle was bringing Lazarus back from the dead. That's one man being brought back, not a whole cemetery full, not an army, just one man. Moses parting the Red Sea and the subsequent decimation of the Egyptian army had more visual impact than pretty much anything Jesus did.

But maybe "big and splashy" isn't really the point. What Jesus did, what Thor seems to be doing, is changing the world one person at a time by talking. That's it. Talking. Setting an example. Nothing really huge. No parting the Red Sea, no blasting cities into rubble, nothing on a grand scale. Little miracles for small groups of people. Could either of them do something big and splashy? Absolutely. There are indications in the Bible that Jesus could have taken the planet apart. In The Ultimates, we saw Thor take out a sizeable part of an alien fleet by himself. But that's it. That's the one big event we've seen. Aside from his short fight with the Hulk and the battle with his teammates, most of what Thor has accomplished is done through conversation -- with individuals, on talk-shows, through books.

In a sense, that's where the real struggle has always been fought, in the hearts and minds of individual human beings. And while fear can sometimes force people to act a certain way, what really changes them is education and experience. Look at the places on Earth where warring groups have been subjugated by a more powerful and oppressive government. Once that government is removed, those groups go right back to fighting each other because the root causes of their disagreement weren't addressed and corrected. "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." ~Albert Einstein

So what if Thor has the ability to level New York City and half the surrounding countryside? What would that gain him? Would that, in the long run, achieve the goals of getting people to tolerate or love each other, take care of the environment, or whatever else his message really is? Some might do it out of fear, but wouldn't it be better if people voluntarily bought into his plans because they were convinced by his words?

Thor might well be waiting. He seems to know what's coming (at least to a certain extent). He's sitting in the Triskelion, which apparently is going to be Ground Zero of whatever's going to happen in the remainder of this arc. This part of the story might be the parallel to the Biblical event of the people mocking Christ on the cross. Why didn't he save himself? Was it because he couldn't, or because his death would allow something much deeper and more important to take place?

Ultimates2 still has at least four issues left. The story's not over yet.

 

[Ice]

If you want to extend the Thor/Jesus parallel, a similar question would be: What was the point to Jesus being the Son of God? Really, what did this man do that was so Earth-shattering? In the Bible, we get descriptions of miracles, but they're all pretty low-key. Five loaves and two fish; healing the blind man and the lepers; changing water into wine at a wedding feast. About the most impressive miracle was bringing Lazarus back from the dead. That's one man being brought back, not a whole cemetery full, not an army, just one man. Moses parting the Red Sea and the subsequent decimation of the Egyptian army had more visual impact than pretty much anything Jesus did.

But maybe "big and splashy" isn't really the point. What Jesus did, what Thor seems to be doing, is changing the world one person at a time by talking. That's it. Talking. Setting an example. Nothing really huge. No parting the Red Sea, no blasting cities into rubble, nothing on a grand scale. Little miracles for small groups of people. Could either of them do something big and splashy? Absolutely. There are indications in the Bible that Jesus could have taken the planet apart. In The Ultimates, we saw Thor take out a sizeable part of an alien fleet by himself. But that's it. That's the one big event we've seen. Aside from his short fight with the Hulk and the battle with his teammates, most of what Thor has accomplished is done through conversation -- with individuals, on talk-shows, through books.

In a sense, that's where the real struggle has always been fought, in the hearts and minds of individual human beings. And while fear can sometimes force people to act a certain way, what really changes them is education and experience. Look at the places on Earth where warring groups have been subjugated by a more powerful and oppressive government. Once that government is removed, those groups go right back to fighting each other because the root causes of their disagreement weren't addressed and corrected. "Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding." ~Albert Einstein

So what if Thor has the ability to level New York City and half the surrounding countryside? What would that gain him? Would that, in the long run, achieve the goals of getting people to tolerate or love each other, take care of the environment, or whatever else his message really is? Some might do it out of fear, but wouldn't it be better if people voluntarily bought into his plans because they were convinced by his words?

Thor might well be waiting. He seems to know what's coming (at least to a certain extent). He's sitting in the Triskelion, which apparently is going to be Ground Zero of whatever's going to happen in the remainder of this arc. This part of the story might be the parallel to the Biblical event of the people mocking Christ on the cross. Why didn't he save himself? Was it because he couldn't, or because his death would allow something much deeper and more important to take place?

Ultimates2 still has at least four issues left. The story's not over yet.

So...awesome.... :cry:

(The post that is)

 

[DIrishB]

So...awesome.... :cry:

(The post that is)

I agree, and I also disagree with those who say Thor's story (in terms of his godhood) is over. I fully expect Thor to play a part in the resolution of this arc.