The Ultimate Revelation!? (Some OLD Spoilers, Just a Theory...uh...sort of)

Nas-T!

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So I was rereading The Ultimates volume 1 #6 the other day and I, like, noticed THIS (bet someone else got this months ago!):
Page 21 (that's not counting adds, but counting the first catch-up page), Panel 3...is the same panel later used in The Ultimates 2 #7 Page 14 Panel 1, simply with some new inks and colours.

But what I noticed that was more important, was in volume 1, Tony's eyes are blue...while in volume 2, Tony's eyes are brown!

Yeah, in a universe where Reed Richards and Tony Stark supposedly went to the same college, but have actually never met yet, this could just be a silly mistake, but DC's made me paranoid with the eye colour thing.
Could Tony be the traitor...is this even Tony? I've been thinking about that cover with the silhouetted villains (I'm pretty sure I saw a similar image of the heroes in volume 1, #11 Page 18, Panel 7!!!) and I'm wondering if, no matter about traitors and the like, if the team isn't slowly being picked off and replaced by shape-shifters or clones or whatever the hell else!?

I mean, there's supposedly another Cap running around, right? Thor's out of the game. So are Banner and Pym. They've got Giant Men in Pym's place. Why not slowly start to pick off the entire team and replace them with "newer" soldiers.
Which then leads me back to Ultimates 2 #2's final scene, where Pym points out that them (the scientists and superheroes) are being replaced by the soldiers like Hawkeye and Black Widow. Slowly but surely, he's right. The Reserves are all wannabe Iron Men and Captain Americas. What's next!?
That again leads me to believe that the traitor, the REAL traitor is not Cap, but Nick Fury himself! I mean, didn't he seem to be laying it on a little thick about how close he was to Hawkeye? And all that stuff in front of Cap could've been an act, since Cap seemed to be completely innocent.
Maybe Fury was picking off the team and setting things up the way he wants in the only way he knew how. With force.
He puts Thor away, he kills Banner, he "kills" Hawkeye, he blames Cap. Jan was getting sidelines anyway (remember what she said to Hank in #6?). And if Nick has two faces: one public and the other private, it would explain him giving Hank the cold shoulder, no? Meanwhile, he's gonna take Hank's Ultron invention and turn it into the next big bad!

Remember how he asks Hank if he's sure Banner will be unconscious throughout his execution and Hank says he's not gonna mess up his last assignment?
Later on Hank gets a call from someone, apparently Banner, who then thanks him. His words and his expression can mean one of two things: that Bruce survived and that he's just surprised how powerful Hulk is, to survive an explosion like that...OR...that he didn't expect Bruce to be alive, and that he was surprised to hear from him.

I dunno, maybe I'm stretching logic here, but I'm hopeful for at least some of that stuff to be right.

Nas
 

E.Vi.L.

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Wow.

It is the same panel but with different coloring, most noticeably the eyes.

But Tony has blue eyes in Ultimates 2 #5 (doesn't appear #6) after he took down Thor, as we can see in the next before last page of that issue.

So it'd be a little weird to replace Tony after he helped taking down Thor and still have the double visit his old friend when there's nothing to gain from it and just an increased risk of discovery (Thor could have noticed the different eyes color, for example).

Plus, if Thor can't tell it's a double, it'd be a final nail in the coffin of the possibility of him being truly a God. Couldn't he read Banners mind back in volume 1? I guess all of his powers were tied to the belt and hammer. Not much of a god, then.

Note that Tony's eyes are still brown instead of blue in Ultimates #8...

So I'm on the fence. Extended error? Significant? I don't know.
 
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marvelman

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yeah, i noticed the eye thing a while ago, but i gotta check out that panel thing.

Nice find!
 

Nas-T!

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Hi, E

Didn't notice that the mistake was repeated, or that it started just after Thor's arrest. Interesting!
You bring up a good point about the "new" Tony going to visit Thor in his cell, which would be silly of him. I dunno, maybe it's all just Loki (who would want to visit Thor, I suppose) as Tony or maybe the "new" Tony was sent in to try and start a little fight with Thor. Maybe whoever is in charge of this (Fury? Red Skull?) wanted Thor to feel angry or alone, because Tony was his best friend, and now even HE doesn't believe him!

And thanks Marvelman, it was a lucky stroke because I tend to scan all my favorite close-up mugshots from The Ultimates 2 onto my PC, and I was reading The Ultimates v.1 #6 on the PC as well, so the panel just looked familiar and I could do the quick comparison.

Nas
 

E

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Ladies and gentlemen, The Eye Manifesto.

Good find, and interesting even if it ends up just being a dumb mistake.
 

Nas-T!

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More on the Eyes...and then some of Banner and the Traitor!

Firstly, "yes" Tony's eyes are blue on the second last page of The Ultimates 2 #5, but they've been brown in every issue before that...hmmm...starting to seem more like a mistake than a clue.

HOWEVER, if you start looking at behavior patterns, things DO get interesting. Brown eyed Tony is the one that is all mean looking in #8, and he's the one who speaks to Thor in #7 when he doesn't seem to believe what he's saying. Blue-eyed Tony is the one who took down Thor (reluctantly) and seemed to kind of regret it at the end of #5.

Of course, there IS the tiny little fact of there being two colorists working on #5, and ONLY Laura Martin working on all the brown-eyed Tony issues. Paul Mounts did the colors in the first Ultimates series, so while he may like blue-eyed Tony, Laura maybe just prefers brown-eyed Tony. Of course, the colorist that helps Laura in #5 is also named Laura. Could Millar be so sneaky that he had them fabricate a colorist for #5 (both colorists are named Laura, so maybe the other one is Laura Martin's maiden name or something!). Nah, now I'm just being paranoid!! It looks like the eyes lie and it's just an honest mistake.
Oh well...

As for further links to the traitor, I've got an interesting one:
In #3 (v.2), right before Fury shows up at his cell, Banner is conversing with someone over the loudspeaker. That person remains dead quiet as soon as Fury walks in. At the time of first reading, I simply assumed that it was Doctor Brankin or somebody, but now I have some other theories:
For one thing, it could've been Hank Pym. He is very cryptic and asks Bruce: "Are you prepared for what comes next?", which seems to refer to the impending death sentence Bruce is sure he's received. Of course, it could refer to whatever plan Pym would use to help Banner escape his execution.
OR
This person could be the traitor. Banner may not know he's talking to A traitor, but he DOES know who he's speaking to. Who could that be? Hmmm.

I also came up with a theory where there actually was no traitor, too! Basically, if Thor was really crazy, then anything Loki told him would be BS!! Of course, this theory doesn't work since Pym was conversing with someone he knew and the guy who "killed" Hawkeye said: "Surprised?"

Oh well...there's that for today!

Nas
 

E.Vi.L.

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Re: More on the Eyes...and then some of Banner and the Traitor!

Nas-T! said:
As for further links to the traitor, I've got an interesting one:
In #3 (v.2), right before Fury shows up at his cell, Banner is conversing with someone over the loudspeaker. That person remains dead quiet as soon as Fury walks in. At the time of first reading, I simply assumed that it was Doctor Brankin or somebody, but now I have some other theories...

Wow, you are on a roll. I completely forgot about that little convo. Mostly because the Traitor storyline wasn't fully developped at the time. I should re-read the whole serie. Probably will, just before issue 9.

Anyway, the thought that this is the traitor is very interesting. And if it is, then the traitor is certainly not Captain America giving the conversation.

The mystery man calls him "Bruce". Who uses his first name and who doesn't?
 

Nas-T!

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Re: More on the Eyes...and then some of Banner and the Traitor!

E.Vi.L. said:
Wow, you are on a roll. I completely forgot about that little convo. Mostly because the Traitor storyline wasn't fully developped at the time. I should re-read the whole serie. Probably will, just before issue 9.
School just ended for me, so I have ALOT of time to sit and reread and think about things. I plan on rereading The Ultimates 2 #1-8 again. I feel that there's something I'm missing. It's something small, a word or a sentence, but it is a clue. My brain usually nags at me like that until I get something. And when you reread, study the backgrounds (especially the ones with people), there's bound to be clues!

E.Vi.L. said:
Anyway, the thought that this is the traitor is very interesting. And if it is, then the traitor is certainly not Captain America giving the conversation.
Well, I figured that it wasn't Cap before I found this out because:
a) Cap was being thrown in our faces as the traitor.
b) His conversation with Hank at #6's end was just not the kind Cap and Hank would have.
c) He couldn't have hacked into secure government files and outed Banner. He's from the 1940's! There's no way he could've picked up that much skill in a year!!
d) He went gunning for Thor when Banner was outed. Now why would he go there AND accuse Thor, if he did it? He didn't need to. It's not like my theory with Fury, where he'd have to act. No one asked him to confront Thor.
e) He probably wouldn't have killed Hawkeye's family. It's not very "Cap-like".

There probably is another Cap running around (Red Skull?) because he always seems different. In #7 when he yells at that Arab kid...just didn't seem right or relevant. And the videos appear to confirm Cap's involvement.

Based on the images of the traitor's hands and wrists in #6 and #7, I'd say that it IS a white male, but nothing is for sure, as that could be the "other" Cap in #7.

E.Vi.L. said:
The mystery man calls him "Bruce". Who uses his first name and who doesn't?
Who said it was a mystery MAN at all? Janet Van Dyne is flying under everyone's radar, isn't she? I doubt it's her, but she's smart...very smart. Smarter than she looks. And she'd easily be able to set up Cap since she probably has access to his personal stuff, like his costume and whatnot.

Betty Ross? Nah!

Wanda? I hope not. But I doubt it. There's no shock factor because she's a peripheral character at best, mainly there for the gags.

Natasha? Too obvious. Just too damn obvious. I refuse to accept it.

The remaining guys...uh...guy is Tony. Hmmm...

Nas
 

vintsukka

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Re: More on the Eyes...and then some of Banner and the Traitor!

Nas-T! said:
As for further links to the traitor, I've got an interesting one:
In #3 (v.2), right before Fury shows up at his cell, Banner is conversing with someone over the loudspeaker. That person remains dead quiet as soon as Fury walks in. At the time of first reading, I simply assumed that it was Doctor Brankin or somebody, but now I have some other theories:
For one thing, it could've been Hank Pym. He is very cryptic and asks Bruce: "Are you prepared for what comes next?", which seems to refer to the impending death sentence Bruce is sure he's received. Of course, it could refer to whatever plan Pym would use to help Banner escape his execution.
OR
This person could be the traitor. Banner may not know he's talking to A traitor, but he DOES know who he's speaking to. Who could that be? Hmmm.
I thought it was Xavier inside Banner's head. But now that I checked it again, it does seem it's someone on a loudspeaker because while Banner is answering him/her he looks directly at the camera in his cell.
 

E

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Re: More on the Eyes...and then some of Banner and the Traitor!

vintsukka said:
I thought it was Xavier inside Banner's head. But now that I checked it again, it does seem it's someone on a loudspeaker because while Banner is answering him/her he looks directly at the camera in his cell.

I had thought that was the courtroom camera, but of course why would he say that then, and why would those cameras be there?
 

ourchair

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I'm still gunning for Tony and a secret agenda. Not necessarily an evil one, but a secret agenda nonetheless.
 

14rdb

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ourchair said:
I'm still gunning for Tony and a secret agenda. Not necessarily an evil one, but a secret agenda nonetheless.
Well, we know he is secretly building a 'military warplane' so that's pretty much a given on some level.
 

ourchair

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14rdb said:
Well, we know he is secretly building a 'military warplane' so that's pretty much a given on some level.
Well, yes, I am stating the obvious. But I'm just reiterating the fact that I've been suspicious of him since the start with the "Iron Man Manifesto".

God, saying 'manifesto' feels so lame now.
 

Nas-T!

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ourchair said:
Well, yes, I am stating the obvious. But I'm just reiterating the fact that I've been suspicious of him since the start with the "Iron Man Manifesto".

God, saying 'manifesto' feels so lame now.
Indeed it does.
I reckon that that plane/jet/thingy with wings Tony was building in secret is simply a foreshadowing of the Ultimate Quinjet. It certainly seems like it. But "yes", it does seem like something is up with him.
I reckon he wants to move The Ultimates from S.H.I.E.L.D. to his own company. Remember how in (vol.2) #1 he says that he wouldn't take part in a strike on any nation acting contrary to the USofA's ideals or whatever. Well, because of said government, he's broken that little "contract" and he's also helped take down his best friend, Thor. Not exactly the kind of business I'd want to be in anymore.

He's preparing The Ultimates for their career outside of the government, IMO.

And, on a totally unrelated note, who's the woman/girl/female person functioning as your avatar "ourchair"?

Nas

vintsukka said:
I thought it was Xavier inside Banner's head. But now that I checked it again, it does seem it's someone on a loudspeaker because while Banner is answering him/her he looks directly at the camera in his cell.
Nah, the dialogue is clearly in one of those "electronic" speech blurbs, like the one used when a character speaks over the phone, through a radio or TV, etc.
If it were Xavier communicating telepathically it probably would've been made more clear anyway with the usual green-outlined speech bubble or the "spiked" speech blurb. I dunno.
It could be Xavier, but I doubt it. The traitor to The Ultimates, my friends, is really the hero to the world. He leaked Banner's files so he could get him out of that cell. He's saving them all. Just you wait and see.

Nas

UltimateE said:
I had thought that was the courtroom camera, but of course why would he say that then, and why would those cameras be there?
Well, for me it was the dialogue that pointed it out. The person he's speaking to remains quite ambiguous about what he's saying, almost as if it's Millar telling us it's the traitor speaking there. Then he/she goes quiet when Fury enters the room. Didn't want to get caught talking to Banner, I suppose.

Another thing that I just thought of was that Iron Man/Tony was the last person to see Bruce. He was the one who took forever to get off the heli-carrier. It looked as if he left a cross with Banner, but why on Earth would you leave a cross with a man who's going to die? I suppose it's symbolic, or thoughful, but it could also be him leaving a cross for a man he knows may spend the rest of his life praying!

I'm doing another post after this one discussing my latest traitor ideas.

Nas
 

Steve GMan

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My theory was that it's Tony because basically, in my opinion, it has to be 1 of 4 people to have it be shocking: Tony, Cap, Fury, or Thor. And we already know it's not Cap or Thor. Plus, if Tony killed Hawkeye's family, he's one of the few people with the technical knowhow to perhaps change what the cameras played back. Then again, he's going to be in Loeb's run. So Millar is basically going to have to pull something really sweet out of his ***, and I can't wait because we all know it'll be awesome no matter what.

Who knows though, my only real hope is that Cap and Thor devise a plan together to escape.
 

E.Vi.L.

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Re: More on the Eyes...and then some of Banner and the Traitor!

Nas-T! said:
The traitor to The Ultimates, my friends, is really the hero to the world. He leaked Banner's files so he could get him out of that cell. He's saving them all. Just you wait and see.

Nas

If the killer and of Hawkeye's family (and most likely Hawkeye) is the same person who leaked the info on Banner, I beg to differ.

I guess I'm gonna stick with the suspicion that it's Natascha and hope we get something solid next week.
 
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Nas-T!

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Alrighty then! As if I weren't confusing you all enough, here's my latest theory!!!

So I reread #1 (vol.2) today and also sped-read #3. Interesting things coming up in my brain. I'll need someone else to double-check this for me, but I think my original theory (which E dubbed 'The Eye Manifesto') may actually be true...again. It appears that Tony is sporting his blue eyes in #3 (in the scene where him, Steve, Jan, Natasha and Jarvis watch TV) and he is more sympathetic in this scene. I'm still seeing some kind of odd pattern of behavior here. Tony says he wouldn't act against another nation, then he does (apparently without question). He seems sympathetic towards Thor (when we see blue-eyes) but see him saying he's a mental patient on Larry King's show (vol.2#1). What's up with him? Is this just "the rules of story" and my paranoia, or is this for real?

As I brought up just a minute ago, Tony was the last person to see Banner before his "death" and he left him a cross. Why? As a symbol of hope, or because he knew Banner would get up, and it would be more like something Bruce could carry around on his travels in exile. I hope the cross is mentioned or touched upon in Ultimate Hulk vs Wolverine, because if that's just an excuse to have the two characters fight, I'll be sorely disappointed.
I figure that the only way Bruce can survive in the Ultimate Universe realistically speaking, is via double jeopardy: meaning that he can't be tried for the same case (the murder of the same 800 or so people) twice. Lucky him! Or maybe I've seen one too many Ashley Judd flicks!?

Oh well, back to the theory. So, I started to think about the traitor and what he/she's said and done.

If you pretend for a second that Tony is the traitor, then there's the possibility that the traitor hasn't switched to the other side (Loki only implied it, but never actually outright said: "I'm working with the traitor"). Maybe the traitor is not a traitor to the team, but one to SHIELD.
So Tony is the traitor prepping the team to become more like the 616 Avengers in that he funds them instead of the government. So he outs Banner only to save him later. It appears that Pym is coming back next "season" so maybe Tony will call him back in.

I dunno, I had reasonings and stuff, but I've forgotten them. Gimme some time to reread and process, then I'll have what you want.

Bottom Line: Tony's the traitor, but he's not a bad guy. Cap was set up by Red Skull.

Nas
 

E.Vi.L.

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Nas-T! said:
I figure that the only way Bruce can survive in the Ultimate Universe realistically speaking, is via double jeopardy: meaning that he can't be tried for the same case (the murder of the same 800 or so people) twice. Lucky him! Or maybe I've seen one too many Ashley Judd flicks!?

You've watched too many Ashley Judd flicks.

This ain't Double Jeopardy. Banner was found guilty and it turned out he escaped. They catch him, he wouldn't need to be tried again. They still get to fry him since the first verdict stands.

This isn't a man found innocent in a first trial, it's an escaped felon.

Presidential pardon is what Banner needs if he wants to resume a normal life.

---

I'm sticking with Black Widow.
 
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Nas-T!

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E.Vi.L. said:
You've watched too many Ashley Judd flicks.

This ain't Double Jeopardy. Banner was found guilty and it turned out he escaped. They catch him, he wouldn't need to be tried again. They still get to fry him since the first verdict stands.

This isn't a man found innocent in a first trial, it's an escaped felon.

Presidential pardon is what Banner needs if he wants to resume a normal life.

---

I'm sticking with Black Widow.
Nah, I was just being an idiot. Even in that movie, she didn't escape, she made parole.
Oh well, my point was that they'll need some major 'splainin to get Banner walking around again. If they do go for that angle.

I don't want it to be Natasha because that is just too damn obvious! I mean, she's the ex-KGB agent with the mysterious past! It's just too obvious for me! Too too obvious! Damn obvious! Ok, I'll shut up now!

Nas
 

ProjectX2

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Interesting thoughts. I'm going to have to check on this eye colour thing...
 

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