The Ultimates 2 #6 Discussion (Spoilers)

[Bass]

I'm just posting what I posted on Millarworld:

We LOVED doing The Defenders... I love these guys.

I have this personal hatred for a trend in super hero comics. The trend is for a writer to take pre-existing characters and ideas that have been around for decades that they personally don't like and then 'revamp' them by making them pathetic and proceed to just take pot shots at something that can't defend itself. This type of writing really disgusts me.

Because these writers hate the characters, they miss the point.

Here, Hitllar have done something wonderful. Millar said he loves them and you can tell that he and Hitch really do. It was a wonderfully funny issue which had me howling with laughter at the sheer ineptitude of these characters, as well as Pym's constant failure, as well as making me feel genuinely sorry for the bloke. Hitllar loved these losers so much, I fell in love with them too.

The next time I see another 'revamp', I'll calm down and read this issue again, because it stands as a testament: you can take any pre-existing character or idea and do what ever you want to them, no matter how awful, provided you truly love them. If you do, it'll be a celebration.

Just look at Hank. This guy is an arrogant, self-centred, proud, and weak man. He insults Banner, can't defend himself in a fight, beats his wife, tries to bully Captain America... but here I am, laughing at his misfortune, I catch my breath and then I hear myself say, "Oh, that poor man".

Well done guys, you walk as giants.

And for those of you who say it wasn't as intense as the first 5 - that's the point. It's a wonderful pacing issue where we are just allowed to unwind before Grand Theft America.

I loved this issue.

 

[E]

I was all set to really dislike this issue, but I just couldn't quite manage it. Parts of it were painfully funny (in what UltimateE once called a "train-wreck factor" kind of way).

Yeah, Millar had done a good job hyping how pathetic these guys were. He was dead on, and did a good job portraying it. How said is it that Nighthawk almost got killed by a bunch of thugs? I really thought they were going to kill him. And it was funny in a sad sort of way how they had to lie to themselves about their powers, funding, friendships, etc. Compare this with other superhero-wanna be groups (isn't that what the GLA are?) - THIS is exactly what it would be like. They are a joke, to be sure, but without turning the book into a goofy parody title. Excellent work by Millar on that.

Did anyone else notice "the glance" the two androids shared behind Pym when he was talking about "utterly expendable war machines"? I wonder just how sentient these things are at this point.

Oooh - I hadn't caught that! Nice catch. :D

Barbara isn't quite young enough to be his daughter, and I realize that 18 is the age of consent in the United States, but the whole episode had a "college frat-boy" air to it that really bugged me.

That's how you know it's a good book - when it can awe you, and make you sad like with #5, then just iritate you like it did in #6. :D

Oh, and just wanted to add that for me, one of the funniest parts of this issue wasn't the story, the art, or the characters, it was the Discovery Channel ad for their Alien Planet special.

Marvel might not care too much about irritating or angering the readers over the delays, but this kind of stuff will cost them. Even if they can pull ads in time, how much is that setting them back? How much of that loss gets passed onto us?

 

[E]

I'm just posting what I posted on Millarworld:

How does he take to being called "Hitllar"? :lol:

And for those of you who say it wasn't as intense as the first 5 - that's the point. It's a wonderful pacing issue where we are just allowed to unwind before Grand Theft America.

I loved this issue.

Agreed.

 

[MoS]

How does he take to being called "Hitllar"?

When Bass returns to earth, following Millar's comment about being called "Hitllar", I am sure he'll tell you...

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Few things.

Seldes on Pym sleeping with Barbara. We all know that it was wrong and whatnot but I seriously thought it was great because it really showed how human Pym really was. I mean that just sealed the deal for me. You see him trying to do good things but when he goes and pulls something like sleeping with a 19 year old hottie you know that he's still a very very flawed person. What's even better about it is the action of sleeping with her wasn't exactly and "evil" act that people would view him as a villain. It was temptation that drove and that just makes you think about how weak of a man he really is, even if his heart's in the right spot. Anyway, it was just a really human aspect of the character that was definitely a good move on Millar's part as far as characterizing Pym, IMO.

Vision II. Does Pym have the clearance now to know that there's a Vision I? I do like the idea of Vision I being downloaded into Vision II but Vision I already looks like the Vision we're expecting to see. Maybe they'll take the remaing parts and attach them onto Vision II like they were doing with the supersoldiers. As for Ultron, he'd probably get "jealous" and that's when his turn to the darkside would follow.

It's not ****in' Captain America. Get over it :x And if you think it is Cap, you're a dirty hippie.

 

[MoS]

Seldes on Pym sleeping with Barbara. We all know that it was wrong and whatnot but I seriously thought it was great because it really showed how human Pym really was.

The thing that "saved" the Hank-Barbara thing for me is the fact that I think he *does* actually care for her. Probably doesn't love her, exactly. Plus, I can't see someone who has quite the bruised and beaten ego that Hank has would turn down the (fairly flattering, at least on the surface) offer. It's also not a one-time thing, so it almost falls under the heading of "relationship." Just... not quite.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

The thing that "saved" the Hank-Barbara thing for me is the fact that I think he *does* actually care for her. Probably doesn't love her, exactly. Plus, I can't see someone who has quite the bruised and beaten ego that Hank has would turn down the (fairly flattering, at least on the surface) offer. It's also not a one-time thing, so it almost falls under the heading of "relationship." Just... not quite.

True but you know if Jan ever walked back into Hank's life... he'd drop Valkyrie in a second.

 

[MoS]

True but you know if Jan ever walked back into Hank's life... he'd drop Valkyrie in a second.

Maybe she did walk back in for that last scene...

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Maybe she did walk back in for that last scene...

:shock: OoOoOoo Deep. As long as it's not Cap, I don't care.

The traitor. I still don't see why Black Widow is out of the question. Though, if it was Jan and there was a fight between her and Scarlet Witch with some "you give mutants a bad name" dialogue that'd be sweet.

 

[E]

Maybe she did walk back in for that last scene...

Very true...

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Very true...

Don't you think it'd be a little more intimate then what we saw if it was Jan. That's the only thing that's holding me back from it being Jan.

 

[MoS]

:shock: OoOoOoo Deep. As long as it's not Cap, I don't care.

The traitor. I still don't see why Black Widow is out of the question. Though, if it was Jan and there was a fight between her and Scarlet Witch with some "you give mutants a bad name" dialogue that'd be sweet.

No one is out of the question, except maybe Banner (the traitor is was involved in the mission earlier that day, though it still could be a support person like Betty or Jarvis), but whoever the traitor is, it's someone who has been disillusioned by the actions of the country. That would SEEM to let out the Black Widow, who has been portrayed as only it in for the money and the sheer love of mayhem, not idealogical reasons. And the Widow, being upset that the faces of the people were terrified? Nah, she'd LIKE that, I think.

It also seems hard to believe that Hank would be admitting all of his failures to Jan, but, on the other hand, who better to understand? They have a history (in 616 and Ultimates) of breaking up and getting back together. Maybe this is their normal pattern. Jan can't exactly complain about Hank sleeping with Barbara, given what she's been doing...

and that scene of Jan, just walking away from Cap in anger after Cap confronts Hank, with her hands thrown up in the air, is pretty interesting, yes?

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I'd say The Black Widow is still right up there on the top of the list. Yes, her reasons for being the traitor has nothing to do with loyalty to one's country but in order to recruit more to her cause you're not going to say, "Yeah, I'm in it for the cash." If anything the dialogue, to me, points directly to Widow cleverly playing Hank and making him believe that she/he was playing for the right team. It's called deception, something The Black Widow I hear is damn good at.

 

[E]

Don't you think it'd be a little more intimate then what we saw if it was Jan. That's the only thing that's holding me back from it being Jan.

Not necessarily...remember that scene was very brief.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Not necessarily...remember that scene was very brief.

True but if it was Jan the best reveal for her would have been that moment, then. Her sitting next to Hank and comforting him.

 

[MoS]

True but if it was Jan the best reveal for her would have been that moment, then. Her sitting next to Hank and comforting him.

But that would have BEEN a reveal, and the point of this scene was to give us just enough clues to drive us INSANE, not give us actual answers.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

But that would have BEEN a reveal, and the point of this scene was to give us just enough clues to drive us INSANE, not give us actual answers.

Yeah, I know. Just an ideal vision I was having.

One more thing about Jan. I don't think the fight with Captain after he bullied Hank (which disgusted me) with Jan in the background holds any evidence. In fact I don't think there's any evidence pointing at anyone right now. Anyway, Jan's a **** and ****'s get offended when the boyfriend chases the "other" options away. It was perfectly normal.

Here's a thought for Scarlet Witch. Her flirting with "one of the androids". Now, I don't think it's Scarlet Witch but would it be interesting if that android wasn't Vision II. Scarlet Witch is the traitor and Ultron turns with her. Why did the traitor go to Hank to being with? Maybe it's her getting closer to the droid. Cmon, you don't hate the idea... I know I don't I'm tossin' it around at other boards now.

 

[Lynx]

The traitor. I still don't see why Black Widow is out of the question. Though, if it was Jan and there was a fight between her and Scarlet Witch with some "you give mutants a bad name" dialogue that'd be sweet.

Because Pym said "You were the least likely person I'd figure for a traitor" or something to that effect. Natasha IS likely to be a traitor. So are the Maximoffs. It's in their charcters. And why are you so against Cap being a traitor? America is NOT what it was in the 1940's, for better or worse, no matter how you look at it. Cap could easily be disillusioned with modern America. Cap stands for the ideals of a past America, and many of those ideals are completley different nowadays. Not to mention Millar is VERY liberal AND Cap was liberal in 616. . .so it's not out of the realm of posibility.

But, I'm banking more on Hawkeye or Jan now. . .

 

[MoS]

Yeah, I know. Just an ideal vision I was having.

One more thing about Jan. I don't think the fight with Captain after he bullied Hank (which disgusted me) with Jan in the background holds any evidence. In fact I don't think there's any evidence pointing at anyone right now. Anyway, Jan's a **** and ****'s get offended when the boyfriend chases the "other" options away. It was perfectly normal.

Eeeep, talk about double standard. Why does Hank sleeping with Valkyrie make him "more human" and yet Jan gets labelled a "****" for, what, sleeping with Cap (with whom she is in a committed relationship)?

Here's a thought for Scarlet Witch. Her flirting with "one of the androids". Now, I don't think it's Scarlet Witch but would it be interesting if that android wasn't Vision II. Scarlet Witch is the traitor and Ultron turns with her. Why did the traitor go to Hank to being with? Maybe it's her getting closer to the droid. Cmon, you don't hate the idea... I know I don't I'm tossin' it around at other boards now.

If the traitor turns out to be Scarlet Witch or Quicksilver I'm going to be more than a tad annoyed, because thus far they have been completely throw-away characters. Good mysteries give plausible hints and clues, and other than the last 2 issues, we've had ZIP input from either of them.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Because Pym said "You were the least likely person I'd figure for a traitor"

We, the readers, know how likely BW is. Hank knows as much about her as he does the rest of the team save Jan.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Eeeep, talk about double standard. Why does Hank sleeping with Valkyrie make him "more human" and yet Jan gets labelled a "****" for, what, sleeping with Cap (with whom she is in a committed relationship)?

Hank even feels guilty about sleeping with Barbara. Jan goes straight to the man that beat her and starts the flirt fest. Men and Women think and act differently.

 

[Lynx]

We, the readers, know how likely BW is. Hank knows as much about her as he does the rest of the team save Jan.

Not true. EVERYONE in the Ultimates knew her past, because Natasha makes a comment in Ultimate War to the effect of "Is it a good idea to be trusting the children of Magneto?" and Cap responds "Does the trust issue extend to former Soviet superspys?" and Natasha says "Touche, Mister Rogers." So the team DOES know she was a Soviet superspy.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Not true. EVERYONE in the Ultimates knew her past, because Natasha makes a comment in Ultimate War to the effect of "Is it a good idea to be trusting the children of Magneto?" and Cap responds "Does the trust issue extend to former Soviet superspys?" and Natasha says "Touche, Mister Rogers." So the team DOES know she was a Soviet superspy.

That's what Captain America says. The group does not think as one. There are different characters who feel differently about other characters. As far as Hanks concerned. Banner and Jan and other Scientists are the people he would most interact and be concerned about. Not shadow-ops and soldiers.

 

[Lynx]

That's what Captain America says. The group does not think as one. There are different characters who feel differently about other characters. As far as Hanks concerned. Banner and Jan and other Scientists are the people he would most interact and be concerned about. Not shadow-ops and soldiers.

Nobody trusts spys, regardless of who you are. Even if he didn't interact with her, he knew she was a former Communist spy. It also brings up the point, if they never interacted before, why would Natasha trust, or even GO to, Pym in the first place. Plus, it would be rather anti-climactic if the spy wound up being the traitor. Everybody would read it and be like ". . .and where was the suprise in that?"

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Nobody trusts spys, regardless of who you are. Plus, it would be rather anti-climactic if the spy wound up being the traitor. Everybody would read it and be like ". . .and where was the suprise in that?"

Where's JTG when you need him?

It was once dismissed that the spy would be anyone but Thor at one time. This was because people felt that it was too repetitive having a character "turn bad" on The Ultimates. Well, it happened. What would be repetitive would be someone seeking redemption, like Pym. If the spy is a full out "hero" like Captain or Tony. We're gonna have to go through another story where someone is trying to redeem themselves like Pym is. If it's Black Widow then here we have someone with out a conscience who not only will not seek forgiveness but will just figure she did what she had to do and next time we see her in the Ultimate Universe she won't be labelled as a villain but as her own character. That's the reason I think it's BW.

 

[Lynx]

Where's JTG when you need him?

It was once dismissed that the spy would be anyone but Thor at one time. This was because people felt that it was too repetitive having a character "turn bad" on The Ultimates. Well, it happened. What would be repetitive would be someone seeking redemption, like Pym. If the spy is a full out "hero" like Captain or Tony. We're gonna have to go through another story where someone is trying to redeem themselves like Pym is. If it's Black Widow then here we have someone with out a conscience who not only will not seek forgiveness but will just figure she did what she had to do and next time we see her in the Ultimate Universe she won't be labelled as a villain but as her own character. That's the reason I think it's BW.

We don't even know if the Ultimates are going to exist post-GTA. Even if they did, if the traitor is a "hero" like Tony or Cap, they may feel they have done the right thing in the first place and not want redemption. Black Widow is ALSO repetive because they been doing stories where she's the traitor/ spy/ double agent since she was CREATED in 616. I also think she has too much to lose, regardless. She's on the verge of inherting A LOT of money with Tony. And why would a women who has NO ideals in the first place be dissillusioned by modern America. The Soviet Union did A LOT of things worse then Guantanamo Bay and neutering third-world countries, yet she didn't have a problem working for them.

It still goes back to the point: Why would Natasha confide in Pym? Especially if they rarely interacted to begin with? Why would she, Miss Master of Espionage, TRUST him?

And when was Thor a spy?

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I don't know? None of these people are 100% the traitor anyway. We're all just blindly guessing and then when it's revealed some of us will say I told you so. There's no arguments for anyone yet, anyway. Just possibilities. As long as the story's good I'll accept anyone, except for Cap.

 

[Lynx]

I don't know? None of these people are 100% the traitor anyway. We're all just blindly guessing and then when it's revealed some of us will say I told you so. There's no arguments for anyone yet, anyway. Just possibilities. As long as the story's good I'll accept anyone, except for Cap.

Ditto, except I don't want it to be Black Widow. :lol: I'm guessing more Clint or Jan now, anyways. . .

 

[Jackie Estacado]

sorry to sound like a total spaz but where was vision (one) in ultimate nightmare? was that meant to be the droid/herald they take away from the russian base?
i'm not a huge 616 history buff so the rference was lost on me. thanks guys (and girls)

 

[Ultxon]

Yes, the robot in Ultimate Nightmare was Ultimate Vision.