The Ultimates 2 #6 Discussion (Spoilers)

TheManWithoutFear said:
:shock: OoOoOoo Deep. As long as it's not Cap, I don't care.

The traitor. I still don't see why Black Widow is out of the question. Though, if it was Jan and there was a fight between her and Scarlet Witch with some "you give mutants a bad name" dialogue that'd be sweet.
Click to expand...

No one is out of the question, except maybe Banner (the traitor is was involved in the mission earlier that day, though it still could be a support person like Betty or Jarvis), but whoever the traitor is, it's someone who has been disillusioned by the actions of the country. That would SEEM to let out the Black Widow, who has been portrayed as only it in for the money and the sheer love of mayhem, not idealogical reasons. And the Widow, being upset that the faces of the people were terrified? Nah, she'd LIKE that, I think.

It also seems hard to believe that Hank would be admitting all of his failures to Jan, but, on the other hand, who better to understand? They have a history (in 616 and Ultimates) of breaking up and getting back together. Maybe this is their normal pattern. Jan can't exactly complain about Hank sleeping with Barbara, given what she's been doing...

and that scene of Jan, just walking away from Cap in anger after Cap confronts Hank, with her hands thrown up in the air, is pretty interesting, yes?
 
I'd say The Black Widow is still right up there on the top of the list. Yes, her reasons for being the traitor has nothing to do with loyalty to one's country but in order to recruit more to her cause you're not going to say, "Yeah, I'm in it for the cash." If anything the dialogue, to me, points directly to Widow cleverly playing Hank and making him believe that she/he was playing for the right team. It's called deception, something The Black Widow I hear is damn good at.
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
Don't you think it'd be a little more intimate then what we saw if it was Jan. That's the only thing that's holding me back from it being Jan.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily...remember that scene was very brief.
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
True but if it was Jan the best reveal for her would have been that moment, then. Her sitting next to Hank and comforting him.
Click to expand...

But that would have BEEN a reveal, and the point of this scene was to give us just enough clues to drive us INSANE, not give us actual answers.
 
Rhyo said:
But that would have BEEN a reveal, and the point of this scene was to give us just enough clues to drive us INSANE, not give us actual answers.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I know. Just an ideal vision I was having.

One more thing about Jan. I don't think the fight with Captain after he bullied Hank (which disgusted me) with Jan in the background holds any evidence. In fact I don't think there's any evidence pointing at anyone right now. Anyway, Jan's a slut and slut's get offended when the boyfriend chases the "other" options away. It was perfectly normal.

Here's a thought for Scarlet Witch. Her flirting with "one of the androids". Now, I don't think it's Scarlet Witch but would it be interesting if that android wasn't Vision II. Scarlet Witch is the traitor and Ultron turns with her. Why did the traitor go to Hank to being with? Maybe it's her getting closer to the droid. Cmon, you don't hate the idea... I know I don't I'm tossin' it around at other boards now.
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
The traitor. I still don't see why Black Widow is out of the question. Though, if it was Jan and there was a fight between her and Scarlet Witch with some "you give mutants a bad name" dialogue that'd be sweet.
Click to expand...

Because Pym said "You were the least likely person I'd figure for a traitor" or something to that effect. Natasha IS likely to be a traitor. So are the Maximoffs. It's in their charcters. And why are you so against Cap being a traitor? America is NOT what it was in the 1940's, for better or worse, no matter how you look at it. Cap could easily be disillusioned with modern America. Cap stands for the ideals of a past America, and many of those ideals are completley different nowadays. Not to mention Millar is VERY liberal AND Cap was liberal in 616. . .so it's not out of the realm of posibility.

But, I'm banking more on Hawkeye or Jan now. . .
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
Yeah, I know. Just an ideal vision I was having.

One more thing about Jan. I don't think the fight with Captain after he bullied Hank (which disgusted me) with Jan in the background holds any evidence. In fact I don't think there's any evidence pointing at anyone right now. Anyway, Jan's a slut and slut's get offended when the boyfriend chases the "other" options away. It was perfectly normal.
Click to expand...

Eeeep, talk about double standard. Why does Hank sleeping with Valkyrie make him "more human" and yet Jan gets labelled a "slut" for, what, sleeping with Cap (with whom she is in a committed relationship)?

TheManWithoutFear said:
Here's a thought for Scarlet Witch. Her flirting with "one of the androids". Now, I don't think it's Scarlet Witch but would it be interesting if that android wasn't Vision II. Scarlet Witch is the traitor and Ultron turns with her. Why did the traitor go to Hank to being with? Maybe it's her getting closer to the droid. Cmon, you don't hate the idea... I know I don't I'm tossin' it around at other boards now.
Click to expand...

If the traitor turns out to be Scarlet Witch or Quicksilver I'm going to be more than a tad annoyed, because thus far they have been completely throw-away characters. Good mysteries give plausible hints and clues, and other than the last 2 issues, we've had ZIP input from either of them.
 
Rhyo said:
Eeeep, talk about double standard. Why does Hank sleeping with Valkyrie make him "more human" and yet Jan gets labelled a "slut" for, what, sleeping with Cap (with whom she is in a committed relationship)?
Click to expand...

Hank even feels guilty about sleeping with Barbara. Jan goes straight to the man that beat her and starts the flirt fest. Men and Women think and act differently.
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
We, the readers, know how likely BW is. Hank knows as much about her as he does the rest of the team save Jan.
Click to expand...

Not true. EVERYONE in the Ultimates knew her past, because Natasha makes a comment in Ultimate War to the effect of "Is it a good idea to be trusting the children of Magneto?" and Cap responds "Does the trust issue extend to former Soviet superspys?" and Natasha says "Touche, Mister Rogers." So the team DOES know she was a Soviet superspy.
 
Lynx said:
Not true. EVERYONE in the Ultimates knew her past, because Natasha makes a comment in Ultimate War to the effect of "Is it a good idea to be trusting the children of Magneto?" and Cap responds "Does the trust issue extend to former Soviet superspys?" and Natasha says "Touche, Mister Rogers." So the team DOES know she was a Soviet superspy.
Click to expand...

That's what Captain America says. The group does not think as one. There are different characters who feel differently about other characters. As far as Hanks concerned. Banner and Jan and other Scientists are the people he would most interact and be concerned about. Not shadow-ops and soldiers.
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
That's what Captain America says. The group does not think as one. There are different characters who feel differently about other characters. As far as Hanks concerned. Banner and Jan and other Scientists are the people he would most interact and be concerned about. Not shadow-ops and soldiers.
Click to expand...

Nobody trusts spys, regardless of who you are. Even if he didn't interact with her, he knew she was a former Communist spy. It also brings up the point, if they never interacted before, why would Natasha trust, or even GO to, Pym in the first place. Plus, it would be rather anti-climactic if the spy wound up being the traitor. Everybody would read it and be like ". . .and where was the suprise in that?"
 
Last edited:
Lynx said:
Nobody trusts spys, regardless of who you are. Plus, it would be rather anti-climactic if the spy wound up being the traitor. Everybody would read it and be like ". . .and where was the suprise in that?"
Click to expand...

Where's JTG when you need him?

It was once dismissed that the spy would be anyone but Thor at one time. This was because people felt that it was too repetitive having a character "turn bad" on The Ultimates. Well, it happened. What would be repetitive would be someone seeking redemption, like Pym. If the spy is a full out "hero" like Captain or Tony. We're gonna have to go through another story where someone is trying to redeem themselves like Pym is. If it's Black Widow then here we have someone with out a conscience who not only will not seek forgiveness but will just figure she did what she had to do and next time we see her in the Ultimate Universe she won't be labelled as a villain but as her own character. That's the reason I think it's BW.
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
Where's JTG when you need him?

It was once dismissed that the spy would be anyone but Thor at one time. This was because people felt that it was too repetitive having a character "turn bad" on The Ultimates. Well, it happened. What would be repetitive would be someone seeking redemption, like Pym. If the spy is a full out "hero" like Captain or Tony. We're gonna have to go through another story where someone is trying to redeem themselves like Pym is. If it's Black Widow then here we have someone with out a conscience who not only will not seek forgiveness but will just figure she did what she had to do and next time we see her in the Ultimate Universe she won't be labelled as a villain but as her own character. That's the reason I think it's BW.
Click to expand...

We don't even know if the Ultimates are going to exist post-GTA. Even if they did, if the traitor is a "hero" like Tony or Cap, they may feel they have done the right thing in the first place and not want redemption. Black Widow is ALSO repetive because they been doing stories where she's the traitor/ spy/ double agent since she was CREATED in 616. I also think she has too much to lose, regardless. She's on the verge of inherting A LOT of money with Tony. And why would a women who has NO ideals in the first place be dissillusioned by modern America. The Soviet Union did A LOT of things worse then Guantanamo Bay and neutering third-world countries, yet she didn't have a problem working for them.

It still goes back to the point: Why would Natasha confide in Pym? Especially if they rarely interacted to begin with? Why would she, Miss Master of Espionage, TRUST him?

And when was Thor a spy?
 
Last edited:
I don't know? None of these people are 100% the traitor anyway. We're all just blindly guessing and then when it's revealed some of us will say I told you so. There's no arguments for anyone yet, anyway. Just possibilities. As long as the story's good I'll accept anyone, except for Cap.
 
TheManWithoutFear said:
I don't know? None of these people are 100% the traitor anyway. We're all just blindly guessing and then when it's revealed some of us will say I told you so. There's no arguments for anyone yet, anyway. Just possibilities. As long as the story's good I'll accept anyone, except for Cap.
Click to expand...

Ditto, except I don't want it to be Black Widow. :lol: I'm guessing more Clint or Jan now, anyways. . .
 
sorry to sound like a total spaz but where was vision (one) in ultimate nightmare? was that meant to be the droid/herald they take away from the russian base?
i'm not a huge 616 history buff so the rference was lost on me. thanks guys (and girls)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Latest posts

Back
Top