Twilight of the Superheroes

Bass

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I just read the pitch.

It's absolutely beautiful.

I advise everyone to read it, because it'll never be published and it's really not only exciting, poignant and powerful, but considering the vast number of characters, settings, and objects in the pitch, as well as a complex time travel story, it is extremely succinct and lucid.

Damn fine read.
 

ProjectX2

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I'll read the rest when I'm not so busy.

The parts I did read were excellent though. I'd buy it.
 

ourchair

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I've reread this thing like twenty times over the past two years and it never gets old. Best unpublished classic ever.

I bet in some parallel dimension, Xavier gets a geek orgasm from reading the unpublished ideas from Alan Moore's mind.
 

Bass

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thee great one said:
too much reading and not enough pretty pictures

Y'know, I agree with you. I have a real trouble reading books. I don't know why people think books and pure prose is a higher form of writing than comic books. They're much simpler, elegant, and easier to learn from. But sometimes people use paragraphs, headings and bold to help break up the text making it easier to swallow. The pitch is one of those things. It's worth it; a terrific read.
 

Patriot Mk2

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........wow.

Thats all I can say. Laughed out loud at the Manhunter twist, absolute genius.

Why did this not get published?
 

thee great one

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Bass said:
Y'know, I agree with you. I have a real trouble reading books. I don't know why people think books and pure prose is a higher form of writing than comic books. They're much simpler, elegant, and easier to learn from. But sometimes people use paragraphs, headings and bold to help break up the text making it easier to swallow. The pitch is one of those things. It's worth it; a terrific read.

I was only kidding. I'll read it soon or later.
 

Entropy

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Johnny Bravo said:
........wow.

Thats all I can say. Laughed out loud at the Manhunter twist, absolute genius.

Why did this not get published?

Because DC was being idiotic and decided to alienate Moore before it could be completed and published.
 

ourchair

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Entropy said:
Because DC was being idiotic and decided to alienate Moore before it could be completed and published.
If I'm not mistaken, the current debacle that was the last straw on the back of Moore's camel happened long after Moore pitched this project.

This is not to say that DC did not do anything else to alienate Moore prior to that, but bear in mind that this pitch was written way before Moore got REALLY MAD this year.
 

Entropy

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ourchair said:
If I'm not mistaken, the current debacle that was the last straw on the back of Moore's camel happened long after Moore pitched this project.

This is not to say that DC did not do anything else to alienate Moore prior to that, but bear in mind that this pitch was written way before Moore got REALLY MAD this year.

Your kinda right. See, round about 88-89 Moore got into a dispute with DC over several issues (notably a ratings system for comics and points of ownership over Watchmen). It led to Moore quitting the company and leaving the mainstream for the first time. It was during this period that things like From Hell and Lost Girls were began. He re-entered the mainstream working at Image and later on WildCATS and some Liefield titles (like the very excellent Supreme run). The deal he had struck to do the ABC line under Wildstorm was before Wildstorm got sold to DC and when it happened it left him somewhat in DC's employ again (a position he did not want to be in) which brings us to the current time and the final straws we witnessed recently.
 

Bass

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The thing that annoys me, is if you read the pitch, he's nothing but humble, polite and quite a gentleman, self-depreciating himself throughout the pitch while at the same time creating a sense of trust that in the end, it'll work out okay because he knows what he's doing. He's not the loudmouth jerk who throws his weight around.

I'm pissed off because there was no good reason for this series not to be done. DC should've compromised or held back their 'adult' lables till it was finished. If DC want money, Twilight would've given them an absolute shed full.
 

ourchair

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Bass said:
The thing that annoys me, is if you read the pitch, he's nothing but humble, polite and quite a gentleman, self-depreciating himself throughout the pitch while at the same time creating a sense of trust that in the end, it'll work out okay because he knows what he's doing. He's not the loudmouth jerk who throws his weight around.
Exactly. For all the status and importance Moore has acquired over the past two decades, he's always been a humble chap who has never let that stuff get to his head.

If anything, the only time you could say he's 'throwing his weight around' is over creative disputes rather than engaging in some kind of demand for preferential treatment. Most of his arguments have always been about explicitly contractual issues rather than trying to renegotiate things he thinks he deserves (like say, post-contractual demands for financial recompense of some sort from work-for-hire.)
 

Ultimate Houde

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Alright, i read through the proposal, and I'm going to have to go against the tide.

I didn't like it, granted it was only in the development stages and not fully fleshed out, but I can't say I liked it too much. Their was too much hinging on Constantine, who isn't that big of a character in the main DC universe now-a-days, nevermind when this was written, to base an entire crossover event.

I was also confused by the whole premise of the event. So, future Constantine tells past Constantine how to escape this 'version of the future'. But that makes little to no sense, why would past Constantine do this anyways? The whole thing never seems to come to any reconcile at the end. I realize my words are confusing, but that portrays my own confusion on this matter.

Also, the two big revelations of this crossover seemed to be the only big revelations throughout the whole thing. Billy, who somehow is a midget, gets killed by Manhunter, and then taken over. Doesn't Supes X-ray vision look at skeletal structure?

This whole concept reminds me of Age of Apocolyaspe in the X-men run. An alternate reality that doesn't really accomplish anything but sell some books.

I found the whole part of him trying to make himself sound humble was his way of saying, "Hey, look at me put myself down, so pity me and take my idea!"

I can see why the topguns in DC said no to this, even if the rest of you can't.
 

Patriot Mk2

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Ultimate Houde said:
I didn't like it, granted it was only in the development stages and not fully fleshed out, but I can't say I liked it too much. Their was too much hinging on Constantine, who isn't that big of a character in the main DC universe now-a-days, nevermind when this was written, to base an entire crossover event.

Whens the last time you heard of Layla Miller?
 

Bass

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Ultimate Houde said:
I didn't like it, granted it was only in the development stages and not fully fleshed out, but I can't say I liked it too much. Their was too much hinging on Constantine, who isn't that big of a character in the main DC universe now-a-days, nevermind when this was written, to base an entire crossover event.

Scarlet Witch is though, isn't she? Oh, no she isn't. She was a background character until she got Bendised. This is saying, "Oh the story's not good because I don't know the main character outside of this story well enough". Constantine was a prime mover in the story, and not liking it because you've not really heard of him before is quite pointless. (Looks at Infinite Crisis which is loaded with B-listers it seems.)

Ultimate Houde said:
I was also confused by the whole premise of the event. So, future Constantine tells past Constantine how to escape this 'version of the future'. But that makes little to no sense, why would past Constantine do this anyways? The whole thing never seems to come to any reconcile at the end. I realize my words are confusing, but that portrays my own confusion on this matter.

The society of the world crumbles. The supervillains prey on this. The superheroes defeat the supervillains, exile the aliens, and take over the world. Constantine creates an elaborate ruse that successfully removes all the superheroes and aliens from Earth leaving only the 'normal' superheroes in charge. To make sure that his plan succeeds, he uses his past self as an instrument to bring about a world in which he will succeed in severing Earth from non-human influence.

The present Constantine, realising he's been played, works out the only way to get back at his future self and possibly avoid Twilight is to turn down the woman he knows he would one day marry.

Alan Moore was quite aware it may be confusing, but I think it comes across quite succinctly.

Ultimate Houde said:
Also, the two big revelations of this crossover seemed to be the only big revelations throughout the whole thing. Billy, who somehow is a midget, gets killed by Manhunter, and then taken over. Doesn't Supes X-ray vision look at skeletal structure?

Martian Manhunter is a complete shapeshifter and could effectively duplicate Captain Marvel.

Captain Marvel, in Billy Batson form, never aged. He wasn't a midget. He was a child. People thought he was a midget because while his body never aged, his mind did, and he dressed himself up to look like an adult (thus - a midget) to get into the adult bars.

I found this revelation to be extremely insightful and better than most things we see these days.

Ultimate Houde said:
This whole concept reminds me of Age of Apocolyaspe in the X-men run. An alternate reality that doesn't really accomplish anything but sell some books.

As Alan Moore says, that is the purpose of a crossover. What's amazing is that Alan Moore actually makes a story that is worth reading. It's not that it doesn't "accomplish anything" in the sense of affecting continuity on some widescale by killing lots of characters. That's pointless. It's nothing but a comic about a comic. This however, creates a ragnarok for the superheroes that gives them a resolution as legends require, creating a poignant meaning to the existing continuity without damaging it, and at the same time, gives us a meaningful story about the dissolution of the family that resonates on several levels within the story.

Ultimate Houde said:
I found the whole part of him trying to make himself sound humble was his way of saying, "Hey, look at me put myself down, so pity me and take my idea!"

I thought it was him just being polite.

Ultimate Houde said:
I can see why the topguns in DC said no to this, even if the rest of you can't.

The DC topguns didn't say no. Moore left the company before they could say yes. If Moore had stayed, I'm positive Twilight would've been published.

Due to our differing opinions, we will now be enemies. I will now pass on some advice: The next time you cross the road, don't bother looking.
 

moonmaster

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I loved it. It's truly a shame it they never did it. :(
 

thee great one

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I umm....don't know what to say. It was brillant. I am so disappointed that this is not going to happen. I have never read any of Moore's work before. That man as a lot of the same views of on the comic world that I do. But mostly how comics are open ended and never truly have an ending. One of the best things I've ever read.
 

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