Ultimate Comics Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
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Bass
Nexus of the World
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
That's what I thought.
I get that too, but when Cap went off to kick Giant-Man's ***, he didn't shoot the Triskelion up.
If, when he landed, SHIELD attempted to restrain him as you think he thought would happen, THEN he fought, it would make sense. As it is, it's just silly, as Houde points out. It's just gratuitous action.
That's what I thought.
I get that too, but when Cap went off to kick Giant-Man's ***, he didn't shoot the Triskelion up.
If, when he landed, SHIELD attempted to restrain him as you think he thought would happen, THEN he fought, it would make sense. As it is, it's just silly, as Houde points out. It's just gratuitous action.
Captain Canuck
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plungingforward
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ProjectX2
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Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
"Hawkeye's the only cool one anyway."
This comic is decent but it would be a lot better if I didn't already know everything that was happening. Millar's basically revealed the two cliffhangers so far by telling us Red Skull is Cap's son and Tony Stark has a brother. Maybe he should shut up next time.
Ultimate Red Skull seems pretty crazy though and I am looking forward to Nick Fury's "death squad."
"Hawkeye's the only cool one anyway."
This comic is decent but it would be a lot better if I didn't already know everything that was happening. Millar's basically revealed the two cliffhangers so far by telling us Red Skull is Cap's son and Tony Stark has a brother. Maybe he should shut up next time.
Ultimate Red Skull seems pretty crazy though and I am looking forward to Nick Fury's "death squad."
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
"This is codename: New Black Widow"
So far this book seems like fairly mediocre, standard stuff. Although, I guess the idea of the original Ultimates squaring off against Nick Fury is interesting enough.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
"This is codename: New Black Widow"
So far this book seems like fairly mediocre, standard stuff. Although, I guess the idea of the original Ultimates squaring off against Nick Fury is interesting enough.
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Goodwill
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
Synopsis?
Synopsis?
Ironlurker
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
Flashback to 1945:Cap and Gail do it with this costume on.
Four months after we see her talking to some G-men about protecting Caps reputation about the illegitimate child and convinces her to put the kid up for adoption.
Flash forward to present Day: The preview events happen with the Mid air Cap break away.
Col. Danvers has a meeting with Fury and Hawkeye because Fury has the skills to keep things quiet and resolve them.
The kid wasn't adopted out as stated. Has was raised in a government institution until he was 17 and then he used his tactical genius ability and physical prowess to slaughter the personnel. After Cap Junior does this he cuts his own face. Enter Ultimate Red Skull.
Fury wants to activate Project Avengers.
We see a scene with Cap getting the details of the Red Skull's existence. He is shocked. Until an assault team tried to take him down. Cap puts the big hurt on them.
Cut to Singapore: A blonde Mr. Stark gets a call from another Black widow. Project Avengers has been reactivated and they are to hunt down Cap. This new Stark does not like his little brother.
Flashback to 1945:Cap and Gail do it with this costume on.
Four months after we see her talking to some G-men about protecting Caps reputation about the illegitimate child and convinces her to put the kid up for adoption.
Flash forward to present Day: The preview events happen with the Mid air Cap break away.
Col. Danvers has a meeting with Fury and Hawkeye because Fury has the skills to keep things quiet and resolve them.
The kid wasn't adopted out as stated. Has was raised in a government institution until he was 17 and then he used his tactical genius ability and physical prowess to slaughter the personnel. After Cap Junior does this he cuts his own face. Enter Ultimate Red Skull.
Fury wants to activate Project Avengers.
We see a scene with Cap getting the details of the Red Skull's existence. He is shocked. Until an assault team tried to take him down. Cap puts the big hurt on them.
Cut to Singapore: A blonde Mr. Stark gets a call from another Black widow. Project Avengers has been reactivated and they are to hunt down Cap. This new Stark does not like his little brother.
Gemini
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
Dr. Stark that is
Dr. Stark that is
Captain Canuck
The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
So why was Johnny Storm with Reed?
I thought he was not affiliated with the FF anymore.
So why was Johnny Storm with Reed?
I thought he was not affiliated with the FF anymore.
Willverine
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
Your head is in the right place, sir. In one paragraph you put it down but you're still going to fing read it, because it's Mark Millar and you know it's good. Because Red Skull seems crazy and you want to see the death squad. Millar plants the seeds in your head. Red Skull probably won't be Cap's son, just some douche who likes to play mind games. Tony Stark's brother will end up a clone. You'll be like "WOAH", Joey Lawrence style and all of a sudden, you and everyone else will say Millar's a genius.
Because he is.
Eat me.
"Hawkeye's the only cool one anyway."
This comic is decent but it would be a lot better if I didn't already know everything that was happening. Millar's basically revealed the two cliffhangers so far by telling us Red Skull is Cap's son and Tony Stark has a brother. Maybe he should shut up next time.
Ultimate Red Skull seems pretty crazy though and I am looking forward to Nick Fury's "death squad."
Your head is in the right place, sir. In one paragraph you put it down but you're still going to fing read it, because it's Mark Millar and you know it's good. Because Red Skull seems crazy and you want to see the death squad. Millar plants the seeds in your head. Red Skull probably won't be Cap's son, just some douche who likes to play mind games. Tony Stark's brother will end up a clone. You'll be like "WOAH", Joey Lawrence style and all of a sudden, you and everyone else will say Millar's a genius.
Because he is.
Eat me.
DIrishB
The Timeline Guy
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
Its just an example of writers throwing in throw-away character appearances for no real reason. Millar does it a lot.
Still, it could be explained Johnny temporarily hooked back up with Reed and Sue (Ben's off doing the air force thing) after the events of Ultimatum and Dr. Storm's funeral, then left very soon after to lead up to the events of Ultimate Spider-Man vol. 2. After all, Ultimate Avengers picks up 3 weeks after Ultimatum, and USM Vol. 2 picks up 6 months after...thats a good 5 months of time where these supposedly unexplainable things could be explained irrationally in (only) my own mind.
Its just an example of writers throwing in throw-away character appearances for no real reason. Millar does it a lot.
Still, it could be explained Johnny temporarily hooked back up with Reed and Sue (Ben's off doing the air force thing) after the events of Ultimatum and Dr. Storm's funeral, then left very soon after to lead up to the events of Ultimate Spider-Man vol. 2. After all, Ultimate Avengers picks up 3 weeks after Ultimatum, and USM Vol. 2 picks up 6 months after...thats a good 5 months of time where these supposedly unexplainable things could be explained irrationally in (only) my own mind.
Captain Canuck
The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
Willverine
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
I know there's been a lot of grumbling about the family ties involved with Red Skull, but I'll be damned if that origin sequence wasn't perfect.
Issue 2 gets a 5/5 from me.
I know there's been a lot of grumbling about the family ties involved with Red Skull, but I'll be damned if that origin sequence wasn't perfect.
Issue 2 gets a 5/5 from me.
Captain Canuck
The poster formerly known as captaincanuck65
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
it would have been better if they had used the line:
"What do ya think this A stands for? Abstinence?"
it would have been better if they had used the line:
"What do ya think this A stands for? Abstinence?"
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
Perfect? Really? It basically amounts to "Cap's son is evil just because", and his "genius tactical brilliance" translates as "smashing skulls with free weights".
HAH!
WIN!
Perfect? Really? It basically amounts to "Cap's son is evil just because", and his "genius tactical brilliance" translates as "smashing skulls with free weights".
captaincanuck said:
HAH!
WIN!
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Willverine
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
Well let's look at it this way...
Millar could've taken the "same ol' same ol'" route and intro-douched Red Skull as a Nazi and given him a convoluted series of events that kept him alive and well to present day and still an enemy to Cap. We already had that with Kleiser and the Chitauri.
So I'm saying, this works. Cap's illegitimate son, basically stolen from his mother after birth and raised in a government compound. Not allowed to be his own man and do his own thing and figure out that he's got powers wheneveer he gets around to noticing. He's just bred to be a super-soldier from day one. To quote one of Stephen King's better novels, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy."
But Jack didn't want to be a dull boy. Jack wanted to play, and play he did. After he'd had all the training in the world and figured out for himself that he could F.S.U. (old skatepunk talk for **** **** UP... deciper those asterisks) he decided to cut loose and go have that fun he'd always dreamed about. He smashed faces with free-weights and then killed off 240+ American soldiers who were trained to contain him in a worst-case scenario. Then he carved the skin off his own face with a kitchen knife.
That's hardcore! But the best part is that Millar really summed up the character of Red Skull in the first issue, with the first bit of dialogue from the character himself...
"RUTHLESS OPPORTUNISTS"
That's what Red Skull has always been. In 616 or otherwise. The Nazi thing was a means to an end. Since then he's always reinvented himself when neccesary. The textbook definition of a ruthless opportunist. Look for an opening and exploit it.
Doubt all you want, I still think this was spot-on perfect.
Well let's look at it this way...
Millar could've taken the "same ol' same ol'" route and intro-douched Red Skull as a Nazi and given him a convoluted series of events that kept him alive and well to present day and still an enemy to Cap. We already had that with Kleiser and the Chitauri.
So I'm saying, this works. Cap's illegitimate son, basically stolen from his mother after birth and raised in a government compound. Not allowed to be his own man and do his own thing and figure out that he's got powers wheneveer he gets around to noticing. He's just bred to be a super-soldier from day one. To quote one of Stephen King's better novels, "All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy."
But Jack didn't want to be a dull boy. Jack wanted to play, and play he did. After he'd had all the training in the world and figured out for himself that he could F.S.U. (old skatepunk talk for **** **** UP... deciper those asterisks) he decided to cut loose and go have that fun he'd always dreamed about. He smashed faces with free-weights and then killed off 240+ American soldiers who were trained to contain him in a worst-case scenario. Then he carved the skin off his own face with a kitchen knife.
That's hardcore! But the best part is that Millar really summed up the character of Red Skull in the first issue, with the first bit of dialogue from the character himself...
"RUTHLESS OPPORTUNISTS"
That's what Red Skull has always been. In 616 or otherwise. The Nazi thing was a means to an end. Since then he's always reinvented himself when neccesary. The textbook definition of a ruthless opportunist. Look for an opening and exploit it.
Doubt all you want, I still think this was spot-on perfect.
Gemini
Well-Known Member
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
It was o.k.
It was o.k.
Zombipanda
My Boom-Boom's mostly gay
Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
Well, you make some good points, Will, but I'm still not sold.
But, that's assuming there's only two options there. I don't want to see a WWII relic either, but it's not an either-or situation. It's not even that I'm unwilling to accept the dynamic of the Skull being Cap's son if it's executed in an interesting manner. I just felt like it's a rather stock situation steeped in the standard tropes of the genre. "Son yoked by father's legacy turns heel". There's little moral ambiguity or depth to the situation. Sure, Cap's partially to blame, I guess, for leaving the kid behind, but the extenuating circumstances of the situation make that a non-issue. The way it's been set up provides a situation for Cap to smash in Red Skull's face with little to no ethical consideration and then say "**** You" to SHIELD.
"While Captain America was off fighting a war, the government ****ed him over". *yawn* I just feel like that's something that's done again and again. Government experiment is raised without human experience->turns bitter->Uses his training to break free and butcher his handlers. Valuable lesson learned! You can't raise kids like they were animals or weapons! Silly government!
See, why did he carve his face off? That's just how bad he is? Really? I don't know. The whole scene just stunk of "Look at how TOTALLY ****ING HARDCORE THIS GUY IS! See? Look at how badass this guy is! He killed all those guys! Look at them! All those guys! Then he chopped off his face! And he's Cap's son! Look at how SUBVERSIVE this is!" I think my biggest problem is that it seems to be walking down a pretty traditional road. So far he's presented as a pretty shallow character who also doesn't really add much depth to Captain America. We aren't shown any of his tactical genius or what's going on in his head or what led him to turn this way because the series so far is devoted to big splash pages and voice-over relating the events. Things might take a turn for the better. I might end up liking how the story turns out, but given the pacing, I doubt it. Millar still has to introduce a new team of Ultimates, expand on Stark's brother, build to conflict, treat the relationship between Cap and Son and Cap and the Ultimates, etc. It's a lot of ground to cover and given the big screen nature of it all, there likely won't be much space to do it. And so far, the Red Skull comes across (to me at least) as a paint-by-numbers action movie villain.
This is an interpretation of the character, but I'm not sure it's the only interpretation. I agree that the appeal of the 616 Red Skull is that Nazism was always a means to an end for him. He saw Hitler as a weak little patsy with a ruthless mind that he could use as a means to an end. Nazi fascism was a weapon for him to wield and little more. The problem is, Brubaker has already expressed this time and time again in his own book, using a character with an incredibly goofy design and history, and he's honestly done a better job of it. I think the problem is that he's precisely "same ol' same ol'". He's an egotistical, self-interested nihilist and the only differentiation has been these over-dramatic flourishes (OMG! He took his face! off!) intended to be "edgy" and "hardcore".
I think the question that needs asking is, "Where does this bring our characters? How does the experience enrich them?" and thus far, I'm not really impressed with the possibilities.
Well, you make some good points, Will, but I'm still not sold.
But, that's assuming there's only two options there. I don't want to see a WWII relic either, but it's not an either-or situation. It's not even that I'm unwilling to accept the dynamic of the Skull being Cap's son if it's executed in an interesting manner. I just felt like it's a rather stock situation steeped in the standard tropes of the genre. "Son yoked by father's legacy turns heel". There's little moral ambiguity or depth to the situation. Sure, Cap's partially to blame, I guess, for leaving the kid behind, but the extenuating circumstances of the situation make that a non-issue. The way it's been set up provides a situation for Cap to smash in Red Skull's face with little to no ethical consideration and then say "**** You" to SHIELD.
"While Captain America was off fighting a war, the government ****ed him over". *yawn* I just feel like that's something that's done again and again. Government experiment is raised without human experience->turns bitter->Uses his training to break free and butcher his handlers. Valuable lesson learned! You can't raise kids like they were animals or weapons! Silly government!
See, why did he carve his face off? That's just how bad he is? Really? I don't know. The whole scene just stunk of "Look at how TOTALLY ****ING HARDCORE THIS GUY IS! See? Look at how badass this guy is! He killed all those guys! Look at them! All those guys! Then he chopped off his face! And he's Cap's son! Look at how SUBVERSIVE this is!" I think my biggest problem is that it seems to be walking down a pretty traditional road. So far he's presented as a pretty shallow character who also doesn't really add much depth to Captain America. We aren't shown any of his tactical genius or what's going on in his head or what led him to turn this way because the series so far is devoted to big splash pages and voice-over relating the events. Things might take a turn for the better. I might end up liking how the story turns out, but given the pacing, I doubt it. Millar still has to introduce a new team of Ultimates, expand on Stark's brother, build to conflict, treat the relationship between Cap and Son and Cap and the Ultimates, etc. It's a lot of ground to cover and given the big screen nature of it all, there likely won't be much space to do it. And so far, the Red Skull comes across (to me at least) as a paint-by-numbers action movie villain.
This is an interpretation of the character, but I'm not sure it's the only interpretation. I agree that the appeal of the 616 Red Skull is that Nazism was always a means to an end for him. He saw Hitler as a weak little patsy with a ruthless mind that he could use as a means to an end. Nazi fascism was a weapon for him to wield and little more. The problem is, Brubaker has already expressed this time and time again in his own book, using a character with an incredibly goofy design and history, and he's honestly done a better job of it. I think the problem is that he's precisely "same ol' same ol'". He's an egotistical, self-interested nihilist and the only differentiation has been these over-dramatic flourishes (OMG! He took his face! off!) intended to be "edgy" and "hardcore".
I think the question that needs asking is, "Where does this bring our characters? How does the experience enrich them?" and thus far, I'm not really impressed with the possibilities.
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Re: Ultimate Avengers (Discussion & Spoilers)
Best/worst review since TOG's classic "It was heavy".
Best/worst review since TOG's classic "It was heavy".
