Ultimate FF #12 & "Doom" wrapup discussion (spoilers)


Excelsior Club
May 17, 2004
Great ending to a great arc. MUCH better than the first one.

I like how Ellis explains little things. Sue projecting a force field in her throat is a perfect example of this; not many writers are smart enough to think of something like that.

Even though the arc as a whole was slow, it was well written and interesting. #12 was a great end to it, perfect action issue, and tying everything up while still leaving things open for later.

I think I like Ultimate Doom better than regular Doctor Doom. He has cooler powers but he's more "real" if that's possible. It looks like he's building Latveria from scratch, rather than just going into a country and taking it over. I like that.

This issue makes me almost sad that Warren Ellis is leaving this title in, like, five issues... He's really good with these characters and it's a shame that he can't see that! I would love for him to stick around.

The issue really wrapped things up here and I really like what was done. What I would like to see more of is Doom's growth in the Danish region of the world... That should prove to be interesting. Another thing is the rivalry between Reed and Vic, something that was very heavy in this issue... It's really cool for both character, especially since, you know, they are nerdy about it rather than thinking with their muscles.
I liked the way the issue ended. Doom is still free, and Reed can't do anything about it, since Doom has Danish citizenship. Awesome thinking on Ellis's part. I think that can be used to set up a good story arc, where...um...well I don't for what exactly, but it would be cool. :)
Maybe Reed makes himself a Danish citizen, too. It would be a huge gamble (sp?) but that would be the smartest way to take him down... Think about it.
Yes, that does seem like a risky, but at some level smart too. That way, they he can't be kicked out, and the U.S. can't do anything if he doesn't want to return.
Or, it would out Doom in a sticky situation... If Doom really wanted Reed dead more than anything else, Doom would try anything in his power to do it, right? What if, by law Reed was protected? Legally, Doom couldn't kill Reed and get away with it... Do you see what would come up if ever this were to crop up in a future storyline?
I was a little disappointed that the FF just accepted the fact that Doom was untouchable. They weren't, apart from Reed, even a little peeved and that didn't fit properly. Other than that, great issue
What could they have done? There wasn't a thing they could do to that man that was legal and they already had the American Army there. The army probably would have been ordered to take them down... They have been in the Baxter Building...
Plus, all they wanted were the codes, and they weren't getting them.
But they are still teenagers. I myself am of the teenage persuasion and just about every teenager i know, myself included (most adults as well for that matter) get peeved off when they don't get something important they want. this is something important the FF wanted and they didn't get it because of a technicality- wouldn' you be at least swearing?
The only teenager on the team is Johnny... The rest of the team is into their early to mid twenties. You also have to consider how different these characters are because they've grown up in the Baxter Building. Their upbringing with Storm, their environment all contribute to how they've shaped up... I don't think it's in them to senselessly beat someone up to get what they want.
However Ben Grimm.. the one who needed the codes and the changes the most did not grow up at the Baxter Building and it seems from issue #1 he tended to take on an agressive role to take care of those around him.. hence pummeling the bully who gave Reed a swirly.. so a little more anger from Grimm would have made sense..
I did think they were supposed to be late teens max. Grimm certainly needs more anger
Well, I don't know, I sensed that he calmed down after he figured out that Reed was not the one responsible for what happened and there was things going on that were above him and more important than him, so he was probably smart enough to take the back seat. It makes sense either way.

I didn't really buy that the army would just let a terrorist like Van Damme walk free. The ultimate universe was supose to be a more reallity based universe. Come on, do you really think the Bush would care about such thinks as international laws? Besides, the US army would at least check the legal issues before go out to hunt Victor.
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He calmed down against Reed when he clicked that Reed wasn't to blame. But that just means he was smart enough to not blame Reed for something that wasn't his fault. But his anger should have been directed at Doom whom he knows is to blame.
It's not that Bush doesn't care... He just can't think or comprehend what's going on. That's why he's going after terrorists. The Middle East is not prepared for a democracy, yet, since we're a democracy and it's effective here, he assumes it will do equally as well over there. WRONG. When the people over there are still barbaric enough to chop heads off, a democracy means and will mean nothing to them... UGGh...!I think Warren Ellis is giving him some slack, here, because politics is a very touchy subject. Don't read too much into the fact that it may or may not be off.

Ben is still a character that needs to be etched out. He was angry because that's what was going on then and he didn't know that the whole thing could easily be released in due time. I think it's fine if he didn't become more aggressive because he was up against someone with a tremendous amount of power, first of all, and second of all, he has to comply with what Reed wants so that he can get the codes back. It's simple, really.
It's one thing to go barging into third-world nations that are international pariahs, its another thing entirely to march into a first world nation that's a member of the European Union and Nato. Hence the "Did you make a wrong turn at Iraq" line. Add to that the general negative reactionworld wide to US unilateral actions right now and the Danish response makes perfect sense.

You also contradicted yourself mutantfreak. Either the US government doesn't care about international laws (and thus wouldn't bother looking them up) or it does. You can't have it both ways. I tend to favour the first idea, but recognized that no US government is going to get in an open fight with another NATO member or do something that would result in the EU cutting all ties with the US.
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Blacksword said:
You also contradicted yourself mutantfreak. Either the US government doesn't care about international laws (and thus wouldn't bother looking them up) or it does. You can't have it both ways.

I know that is either a way or the other. What I was trying to say is that since Ellis chose to make the US government care, he should have made they check the legal issues first. The army woundn't go all the way to Copenhagen and come back empty handed.

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