Ultimate Iron Man #4 (Spoilers)

[Lynx]

Has any hardcore Ultimitite actually considered canceling their subscription to this crap? I'm sure I'll get it in Trade (Or HC if the two series come out in one) because I like my Ultimate Collection to be complete, but. . .seriously, I feel like my sticking my head in a microwave just to sear it out of my brain after reading it. I don't think I could read through it twice. :arrgh:

To SV, I'm glad your enjoying it. Its nice that somebody is getting more than feces out of it. As for 616 Iron Man, that's who Iron man is. That's what I grew up reading. I read the Ultimate Universe for a different take on things, as well as leaving the 40-year continuity garbage at the door. Let's say we made Captain America from the Gulf War. He's a hardcore marine now. He would completely lose the "man out of time" aspect from his character. They were originally going to do this, but felt the man out of time aspect was essential to his character so they left it in. Tony being nothing but a brilliant, billionaire playboy human is essential to his character. Card killed it. The series wouldn't be bad. . .if it wasn't about Iron Man.

They did change something about Tony. They made him have a terminal brain tumor. He can't control it with the Irontech like he did the heart condition in 616. He's now a tragic character because he will die, and soon. This was enough ultimitization for me. Turning him into a geneticly altered human like Green Goblin or Mr. Sinister changes the foundation of that character.

 

[E]

Ok, well, if you read the explination of what's going to happen to Tony given by his mom at the end of the first issue, she says undifferentiated neural tissue, which is not brain mater at all. So, Tony's body isn't a brain. Its just a stem cell factory. Which is why his healing factor is so good. Maybe I'm just used to Card's writing, and so I'm looking at the story as a whole, rather than just the individual issues. Irish, how much of Card's writing have you read? Because I've read a good 70-80%, and this isn't his best, I'll admit, but I like this origin/backstory/whatever for Tony much better than any other I've seen. You're right, he does say he bought his mom a house. Doesn't the UMTU issue say he was adopted (it has been a long time since I read it, and I don't have my copy here to read) so maybe that's the mom he buys it for. Or maybe I'm misremembering the story. It is possible, as I said it has been a long time since I read it. Why does Iron Man have to be the same kind of character as he was in 616? Personally, the alcoholic, heart conditioned playboy with more money than God who builds a suit of armor while being held prisoner never seemed like a good character to me. Comparing him to Batman isn't fair, cause Batman goes out and fights criminals in, at best, a midly bullet proof vest, with some neat tools. Iron Man always had the suit, with super powered gizmos, 10 times better than most of the stuff Batman had. I love Batman, he is a great detective, and an awesome super hero. Iron Man was a guy wearing armor who goes out and fights super powered villans hands on. Anyway, just my $0.02

This is a discussion board, not a courtroom. You don't have to defend yourself.

That said, I don't think what anyone has read of Card's other work means anything. Who cares?

Maybe you can explain this since you seem to know and I have no idea - how is neural tissue different from brain matter?

And it's not the explanation of the healing factor that I hate - it's the fact that he has one in the first place.

 

[E]

To SV, I'm glad your enjoying it. Its nice that somebody is getting more than feces out of it. As for 616 Iron Man, that's who Iron man is. That's what I grew up reading. I read the Ultimate Universe for a different take on things, as well as leaving the 40-year continuity garbage at the door. Let's say we made Captain America from the Gulf War. He's a hardcore marine now. He would completely lose the "man out of time" aspect from his character. They were originally going to do this, but felt the man out of time aspect was essential to his character so they left it in. Tony being nothing but a brilliant, billionaire playboy human is essential to his character. Card killed it. The series wouldn't be bad. . .if it wasn't about Iron Man.

Well said. I agree.

 

[DIrishB]

Ok, well, if you read the explination of what's going to happen to Tony given by his mom at the end of the first issue, she says undifferentiated neural tissue, which is not brain mater at all. So, Tony's body isn't a brain. Its just a stem cell factory. Which is why his healing factor is so good. Maybe I'm just used to Card's writing, and so I'm looking at the story as a whole, rather than just the individual issues. Irish, how much of Card's writing have you read?

Besides this mini, none honestly. I actually flipped through Ender's Game when I first heard about this mini but went with reading Frank Herbert's Dune instead.

Because I've read a good 70-80%, and this isn't his best, I'll admit, but I like this origin/backstory/whatever for Tony much better than any other I've seen. You're right, he does say he bought his mom a house. Doesn't the UMTU issue say he was adopted (it has been a long time since I read it, and I don't have my copy here to read) so maybe that's the mom he buys it for. Or maybe I'm misremembering the story.

There was no mention whatsoever of him being adopted, nor of his father in those comics.

It is possible, as I said it has been a long time since I read it. Why does Iron Man have to be the same kind of character as he was in 616? Personally, the alcoholic, heart conditioned playboy with more money than God who builds a suit of armor while being held prisoner never seemed like a good character to me. Comparing him to Batman isn't fair, cause Batman goes out and fights criminals in, at best, a midly bullet proof vest, with some neat tools. Iron Man always had the suit, with super powered gizmos, 10 times better than most of the stuff Batman had. I love Batman, he is a great detective, and an awesome super hero. Iron Man was a guy wearing armor who goes out and fights super powered villans hands on. Anyway, just my $0.02

You're missing the point. No one says they want Ultimate Iron Man to be the exact same of 616 Iron Man. What they're saying is that it takes away from the character to feel the need to explain his intelligence. Even worse is the contrived need for him to create the suit.

And you still didn't answer why the hell they didn't foresee the uncontrollable brain growth during the experiment itself. Its half-assed storytelling, sort of a dues ex machina type deal without as much imagination, just more science. And skewed and faulty science at that.

 

[Shi_Vral]

I asked because he said

As we don't care about people trying to rationalize Card and his writing. It sucks, end of story.

so I was just trying to gauge if this is based off of these four issues, or some of Card's other writing as well.

Undiferentiated Neural Tissue is a precursor of stem cells. It gathers into globs called neurospheres which eventually turn into stem cells. So, spread throughout Tony's body are globs of cells that haven't made up thier minds (haha, get it) as to what they want to be. So, his brain is no bigger than anyone else's, he's just got stem cell factories all over his body. So, maybe the brain cancer is some of these stem cells growing, looking like cancer (because no one else has a body like Tony's) and so the doctor's tell him its a brain tumor, and he trusts them because their doctors.

I understand that a lot of people grew up with Iron Man being the way he was. That's great, good for you. My dad started collecting comics when he was a little kid. He had a copy of one of the first X-Men comics, but because it was before they made action figures, he cut the characters out like paper dolls, and played with those. I've read the old stories, I know and love the old stories. I read the Ultimate comics to get new stories. Seeing as how these are new characters, and there wasn't really any set story for any of them when the books started, I'm loving this NEW origin of Iron Man. I realise that the Iron Man you grew up with was a "normal" human being, and you're mad cause now Card has turned him into something else. Well, boo hoo. If it makes you so mad, DON'T READ IT. Don't buy it. Send Marvel letters. Send them the issues, asking for your money back. Do what ever you feel you need to do because you don't like it. But don't rain on my parade and call my ideas stupid because you don't agree with them.

When was it scientists discovered we regrow brain cells. It must have been in my lifetime (22 years) because I remember being told as a little kid not to do things because it kills brain cells, and they don't grow back. So, if it was 1970 when they were doing the experiments, why would they expect that. And that's why they were testing it on the monkey. Its not the growth of brain cells, its the fact that the brain cells were already growing back, and this sped up the process to such a degree that it was making the brain grow too big.

 

[Doc Comic]

This is something like the "Stan Lee Presents" DC one-shots from a while back where Stan Lee put his spin on DC characters. Yes, Ultimate Marvel is meant for change, but not DRASTIC change. You don't have to explain a person's intelligence. What next, is Card gonna' take over UFF and say Reed Richards's intellect is the result of his father experimenting on him? Please, you honestly don't need to explain intelligence.

 

[E]

What next, is Card gonna' take over UFF and say Reed Richards's intellect is the result of his father experimenting on him? Please, you honestly don't need to explain intelligence.

I said the exact same thing a few weeks ago in another thread. I hate when people need things explained. Sometimes people are smart just because they are smart. Not because they have brain matter in their ***.

 

[Shi_Vral]

UNDIFFERENTIATED NEURAL TISSUE is not brain mater. It is the precursor to stem cells (you know, those things scientests here in the US want to use to grow organs for sick people and all). Therefore, its not an explination for his smarts. I don't think I've seen anywhere in the comic where they say "Tony has a brain for a body, that's why he's so smart." I could be wrong.

 

[Doc Comic]

UNDIFFERENTIATED NEURAL TISSUE is not brain mater. It is the precursor to stem cells (you know, those things scientests here in the US want to use to grow organs for sick people and all). Therefore, its not an explination for his smarts. I don't think I've seen anywhere in the comic where they say "Tony has a brain for a body, that's why he's so smart." I could be wrong.

That's not the point. The point is that Card completely screwed with a character that didn't need to be screwed with. The whole premise of Iron Man is that he's a normal human who's intelligence allowed him to create this amazing suit, not a kid with a healing factor.

 

[Shi_Vral]

Says who? Who made you guys God in terms of what can and can't be changed in the Ultimate Universe? You're upset with the changes, fine. That doesn't make them wrong. In fact, they've been printed, therefore, they're right. Also, the changes don't make Card a bad writer. People have said "It'd be good if it wasn't about Iron Man." Well, its not about "your" Iron Man. Its about Card's Iron Man, which seems to have passed some sort of OK from Marvel since they're still printing, and gave him the go ahead for a second series.

 

[ProjectX2]

This argument is worse than the traitor ones.

 

[E]

UNDIFFERENTIATED NEURAL TISSUE is not brain mater. It is the precursor to stem cells (you know, those things scientests here in the US want to use to grow organs for sick people and all). Therefore, its not an explination for his smarts. I don't think I've seen anywhere in the comic where they say "Tony has a brain for a body, that's why he's so smart." I could be wrong.

Maria: "...the baby's brain won't outgrow his skull. He'll look normal...

"Undifferentiated neural tissue will grow all through his body. As if his whole body is brain. Greater mental capacity. Quicker. Like no human in history."

So, undifferetiated neural tissue might be stem cells, in essence. But it is clearly implied here that they are brain cells/brain matter.

Curse you for making me get those issues out and reread them. :wink:

 

[Shi_Vral]

Fair enough. But, she said it will be quicker. So why wont it? I understand that the messages still have to travel, but who says he can't have a distibuted network of central cortexes? Like a grid computer (really a bunch of computers hooked up to a network that spread out high processing jobs over the network. Ever heard of SETI at Home?)

 

[E]

Fair enough. But, she said it will be quicker. So why wont it? I understand that the messages still have to travel, but who says he can't have a distibuted network of central cortexes? Like a grid computer (really a bunch of computers hooked up to a network that spread out high processing jobs over the network. Ever heard of SETI at Home?)

Why? Because she didn't say his whole body will be a distibuted network of central cortexes. She said it would be brain.

 

[Shi_Vral]

Well, if his brain grew, then his central cortex grew too, and so the distance is reduced to be the same, or even less because the neural pathways are bigger, and so the data can flow faster. Just like putting a 1Gbps network card in your computer on a very high speed connection (faster than cable, cause you're caped at 7Mbps) will make things come in faster, why wouldn't bigger neural pathways mean faster data transmition, and therefore faster response time in the brain?

 

[E]

Well, if his brain grew, then his central cortex grew too, and so the distance is reduced to be the same, or even less because the neural pathways are bigger, and so the data can flow faster. Just like putting a 1Gbps network card in your computer on a very high speed connection (faster than cable, cause you're caped at 7Mbps) will make things come in faster, why wouldn't bigger neural pathways mean faster data transmition, and therefore faster response time in the brain?

It's not the size of the neural pathways, it's the distance the signal has to travel.

Your analogy is a bad one, because you're comparing a network interface card when a better analogy would be comparing cable sizes. And again, that wouldn't matter. The size of a network cable doesn't determine how fast the information travels through it.

 

[Shi_Vral]

Actually, a bigger cable does allow for faster travel, because you can send more data through it (bigger cable = more twisted pairs = more wires to send data over = faster data travel) But, making a bigger cable new would be pointless because network cards are set up to only work with 8. Same reason pluging an ethernet cable into your old phone modem wont send anything faster because its not set up to work that.

 

[E]

Actually, a bigger cable does allow for faster travel, because you can send more data through it (bigger cable = more twisted pairs = more wires to send data over = faster data travel)

Then it's not the size of the cable, it's the amount of wire inside.

So put it this way - the size of the *wire* doesn't determine the speed of the info running through it.

 

[Shi_Vral]

Right, but who says the neural pathway is the wire instead of the cable? But, this, of course, is very off topic for this thread.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

Says who? Who made you guys God in terms of what can and can't be changed in the Ultimate Universe? You're upset with the changes, fine. That doesn't make them wrong. In fact, they've been printed, therefore, they're right. Also, the changes don't make Card a bad writer. People have said "It'd be good if it wasn't about Iron Man." Well, its not about "your" Iron Man. Its about Card's Iron Man, which seems to have passed some sort of OK from Marvel since they're still printing, and gave him the go ahead for a second series.

I'm now convinced that this member is Card. Let's lynch him.