Ultimate Spider-Man #82 discussion (spoilers)

[Goodwill]

magic is getting a stronger role in the uu

But any explanation of magic remains vague, which annoys me. If you're going to introduce it, you'd better have an explanation as to why. We expect it with science. Seriously, like, magic is already a weak way to introduce something new, why leave it in the open? Take the Gem in the UXM Annual... Where'd that come from? That was so odd and, for me, took the quality of the issue down a bit.

 

[DIrishB]

But any explanation of magic remains vague, which annoys me. If you're going to introduce it, you'd better have an explanation as to why. We expect it with science. Seriously, like, magic is already a weak way to introduce something new, why leave it in the open? Take the Gem in the UXM Annual... Where'd that come from? That was so odd and, for me, took the quality of the issue down a bit.

Yeah, but magic is better left vague. How do you scientifically explain magic? It just doesn't work well. And I didn't mind the gem so much, since technically we don't know its magic. But thats a horse of a different color.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I thought the whole explaination of "people get stabbed and survive all the time" was good enough.

 

[Hawkeye101]

Well, if the people doing Ultimate Marvel were smart, they'd do something that can explain magic scientificly. Like it's aenergy field invisible to most that surrounds and empowers all of life and the rules of science or whatever. You know explain that Scarlet Witch's powers are just so, and Dr. Stranges, and all of the others follow suit.

 

[DIrishB]

Well, if the people doing Ultimate Marvel were smart, they'd do something that can explain magic scientificly. Like it's aenergy field invisible to most that surrounds and empowers all of life and the rules of science or whatever. You know explain that Scarlet Witch's powers are just so, and Dr. Stranges, and all of the others follow suit.

Thats the point though, its hard to explain magic scientifically. Why not explain Thor scientifically while they're at it (assuming he's a God and not just some nut, which is very scientifically explainable).

 

[Hawkeye101]

Thats the point though, its hard to explain magic scientifically. Why not explain Thor scientifically while they're at it (assuming he's a God and not just some nut, which is very scientifically explainable).

Okay, magic could be like the Force in Star Wars (please bear with me). In SW there is infact science, and it governs everything just like the real world. However, there is a level above 'science' that sets the laws down. What governs the fact that all things have gravity? I mean, everyone should know that gravity is created by the electrons revolving and rotating around the protons and neutrons. But no where in science does it say 'why' the revolution and rotation of the electrons create what we know as gravity.

My point: magic (the Force) could be that super-natural force that 'controlls' that laws of science, exsistance. Magic would govern the laws that an element cannot be changed into any other element. Magic would govern life, because we have no scientific explination as to how life begins from innatamate matter. Now those who can control this force (i.e. Scarlet Witch, Dr. Strange, the crystal of cyttorak, Mjonlir) can alter the 'rules' of science. Like Scarlet Witch turning Longshot into a cat. There are scientific laws that say, no, you cannot turn a creature with a larger mass into a creature with and entire set of different genomes that has less mass. But if Magic governed science, then those who can controll or manipulate Magic, can alter the rules for particular instances.

 

[DIrishB]

Okay, magic could be like the Force in Star Wars (please bear with me). In SW there is infact science, and it governs everything just like the real world. However, there is a level above 'science' that sets the laws down. What governs the fact that all things have gravity? I mean, everyone should know that gravity is created by the electrons revolving and rotating around the protons and neutrons. But no where in science does it say 'why' the revolution and rotation of the electrons create what we know as gravity.

Actually, thats exactly what Newton's Theory pertained to.

My point: magic (the Force) could be that super-natural force that 'controlls' that laws of science, exsistance. Magic would govern the laws that an element cannot be changed into any other element. Magic would govern life, because we have no scientific explination as to how life begins from innatamate matter. Now those who can control this force (i.e. Scarlet Witch, Dr. Strange, the crystal of cyttorak, Mjonlir) can alter the 'rules' of science. Like Scarlet Witch turning Longshot into a cat. There are scientific laws that say, no, you cannot turn a creature with a larger mass into a creature with and entire set of different genomes that has less mass. But if Magic governed science, then those who can controll or manipulate Magic, can alter the rules for particular instances.

This is true, but then again her power is to alter the probability of things, so her power in fact seems to be able to do anything to some degree.

And I'm not saying don't use magic in the Ultimate universe, as its already been done for one, all I'm saying is its probably better left unexplained. Gives it more sense of mystery, keeps it that much more believable, and doesn't get bogged down with trying to explain something scientifically that you really can't. Sometimes its what we don't know that makes the story more interesting.

 

[Goodwill]

Yeah, but magic is better left vague. How do you scientifically explain magic? It just doesn't work well. And I didn't mind the gem so much, since technically we don't know its magic. But thats a horse of a different color.

It's simple, really. It doesn't have to be "magic." It's like JTG said - Scarlet Witch is, technically a witch, since she has the ability to do stuff. She's a mutant, but that could still be considered magic to those that don't understand. There you go.

 

[TheManWithoutFear]

I think there's a difference. Take Strange Jr. and his father and compare them to The Scarlet Witch.

Scarlet Witch is a mutant she has the powers because she was born with them.

The Strange's are not born with magical powers nor is the evidence that practicing these arts somehow unlock the X-Gene.

Got it? Simple enough?

What about magical objects?
Well since they're not organic it's not really a mutation. It's just they're probably magical because the objects were made or blessed-like.

So running with what Goodwill is saying, to people who don't understand it could be magic but we're the audience/readers and we do understand. There is a difference.

I also agree with DIrishB. Magic should have a mysterious tone to it.

 

[Hawkeye101]

I think there's a difference. Take Strange Jr. and his father and compare them to The Scarlet Witch.

Scarlet Witch is a mutant she has the powers because she was born with them.

The Strange's are not born with magical powers nor is the evidence that practicing these arts somehow unlock the X-Gene.

Got it? Simple enough?

What about magical objects?
Well since they're not organic it's not really a mutation. It's just they're probably magical because the objects were made or blessed-like.

So running with what Goodwill is saying, to people who don't understand it could be magic but we're the audience/readers and we do understand. There is a difference.

I also agree with DIrishB. Magic should have a mysterious tone to it.

No, see that would better explain why people are evolving able to control probability and the weather. They are eveolving to the level above science. Mutation is allowing them to do these things.

Dr. Strange (and everyone else for that matter) is still touched by it, they exsist because of it. He just had to study magic in order to learn how to manipulate it. Just like regular humans to magneto. Magneto can naturally manipulate magnetic fields, but through intense study and scientific research, so can anyone else.

As for items, Cytorak, Mjonlir, etc, they are enchanted. Scarlet Witch can cast a hex, but it wears off after sometime. Others, like the asguardian blacksmith, could probably st a permanent 'hex' forever setting that item 'above' the level of science.

 

[Goodwill]

I think there's a difference. Take Strange Jr. and his father and compare them to The Scarlet Witch.

Scarlet Witch is a mutant she has the powers because she was born with them.

The Strange's are not born with magical powers nor is the evidence that practicing these arts somehow unlock the X-Gene.

Got it? Simple enough?

What about magical objects?
Well since they're not organic it's not really a mutation. It's just they're probably magical because the objects were made or blessed-like.

So running with what Goodwill is saying, to people who don't understand it could be magic but we're the audience/readers and we do understand. There is a difference.

I also agree with DIrishB. Magic should have a mysterious tone to it.

Yes, but an object has a history. Let's hear it and not overlook it. It doesn't have to consume a story, just dialogue, really.

 

[Hawkeye101]

Yes, but an object has a history. Let's hear it and not overlook it. It doesn't have to consume a story, just dialogue, really.

That too.

 

[Lithium]

Daredevil sucks. Moon Knight could whip his candy ***

agrred. This issue was excellent, the dynamic between Black cat and spiderman was cool, i hope to see a fight between herand kitty in the future. :wink:

 

[Spade]

all i want is to see the iron fist in action and see hammer head in a bright orange SHIELD security suit (i have when the villian gets away ex. doom)

 

[DIrishB]

It's simple, really. It doesn't have to be "magic." It's like JTG said - Scarlet Witch is, technically a witch, since she has the ability to do stuff. She's a mutant, but that could still be considered magic to those that don't understand. There you go.

Yes but Scarlet Witch is a mutant, and thats her mutant power, whereas Strange is a normal human who happens to dabble in sorcery. Like MWoF said:

I think there's a difference. Take Strange Jr. and his father and compare them to The Scarlet Witch.

Scarlet Witch is a mutant she has the powers because she was born with them.

The Strange's are not born with magical powers nor is the evidence that practicing these arts somehow unlock the X-Gene.

Got it? Simple enough?

What about magical objects?
Well since they're not organic it's not really a mutation. It's just they're probably magical because the objects were made or blessed-like.

So running with what Goodwill is saying, to people who don't understand it could be magic but we're the audience/readers and we do understand. There is a difference.

I also agree with DIrishB. Magic should have a mysterious tone to it.

Like I said, magic just works better (when in a real-world setting, whether its in movies, books, or comics) with a sense of mystery to it. I don't think it NEEDS to be explained, nor SHOULD it be. When you try to explain magic it almost always sounds contrived, forced, and less believable than were it left open-ended.

No, see that would better explain why people are evolving able to control probability and the weather. They are eveolving to the level above science. Mutation is allowing them to do these things.

The level above science? I didn't know science and magic could be so generally quantified like that.

Dr. Strange (and everyone else for that matter) is still touched by it, they exsist because of it. He just had to study magic in order to learn how to manipulate it. Just like regular humans to magneto. Magneto can naturally manipulate magnetic fields, but through intense study and scientific research, so can anyone else.

Which is fine and it works, but we don't need a scientific explanation of HOW Strange does it. Like I said its sometimes more interesting in what you dont know about the character. Some things should stay a mystery. Like I said otherwise it sounds contrived.

As for items, Cytorak, Mjonlir, etc, they are enchanted. Scarlet Witch can cast a hex, but it wears off after sometime. Others, like the asguardian blacksmith, could probably st a permanent 'hex' forever setting that item 'above' the level of science.

We don't know if the Gem or Mjolnir are in fact enchanted. We still don't know if Thor is a God or a nutjob (or maybe both). We also don't know what the deal was with the Gem of Cyttorak. It probably had some mystical properties to it, but we don't know for sure what it did.

The point is magic is only illusion, there's no such thing as "real" magic, its all about mystery. When you take away that aspect it loses its "magic" (pun intended). So by trying to quantify or explain it through science makes no sense. Its possible, but it usually just doesn't work.

For that matter, since you guys are so gung-ho about it being explainable, why not throw a few of your theories out there? How would you explain magic using scientific terms?

 

[Hawkeye101]

Yes but Scarlet Witch is a mutant, and thats her mutant power, whereas Strange is a normal human who happens to dabble in sorcery. Like MWoF said:
Like I said, magic just works better (when in a real-world setting, whether its in movies, books, or comics) with a sense of mystery to it. I don't think it NEEDS to be explained, nor SHOULD it be. When you try to explain magic it almost always sounds contrived, forced, and less believable than were it left open-ended.

The level above science? I didn't know science and magic could be so generally quantified like that.

Which is fine and it works, but we don't need a scientific explanation of HOW Strange does it. Like I said its sometimes more interesting in what you dont know about the character. Some things should stay a mystery. Like I said otherwise it sounds contrived.

We don't know if the Gem or Mjolnir are in fact enchanted. We still don't know if Thor is a God or a nutjob (or maybe both). We also don't know what the deal was with the Gem of Cyttorak. It probably had some mystical properties to it, but we don't know for sure what it did.

The point is magic is only illusion, there's no such thing as "real" magic, its all about mystery. When you take away that aspect it loses its "magic" (pun intended). So by trying to quantify or explain it through science makes no sense. Its possible, but it usually just doesn't work.

For that matter, since you guys are so gung-ho about it being explainable, why not throw a few of your theories out there? How would you explain magic using scientific terms?

I have thrown out a few theories, magic is the governing force that sets the laws of science down. It is the force that says the revolution and rotation of electrons is what created gravity.

 

[DIrishB]

I have thrown out a few theories, magic is the governing force that sets the laws of science down. It is the force that says the revolution and rotation of electrons is what created gravity.

So in your opinion magic is some people's view of God?

 

[Hawkeye101]

So in your opinion magic is some people's view of God?

If you want to look at it that way. I prefer to think of Magic like the Force rather than God.

 

[DIrishB]

If you want to look at it that way. I prefer to think of Magic like the Force rather than God.

I prefer to think of Magic as card tricks, illusions, and sleight of hand, because thats all it is.

 

[Hawkeye101]

I prefer to think of Magic as card tricks, illusions, and sleight of hand, because thats all it is.

Yes, that's all magic 'tricks' are. but Magic, in the sense that it is acctual power, yeah I see it as the governing force of science. The manipulation of magic is the 'power' itself.